Riot's response is to buff everyone's damage who's not doing enough damage yet.
https://media.giphy.com/media/iHI0ef8D3jaDK/giphy.gif
At least Lethality was nerfed by two points each. With Black Cleaver getting buffed by 6%. So that'll cancel each other out anyway.
I legitimately feel like we're missing the point here.
Julius Evola46 votesSurrender at 5 when
KawaiiStorm14 votesSmfh. In NA it's ff in champ select
ArdentCensored13 votesI can predict with 70+% accuracy whether I win or lose based on the champs I see in champ select. I dodge constantly trying to avoid the tiniest disadvantage because it's pretty much instalose nowadays. 2 assassins on 1 team? dodge. No tank? dodge. Toplaner not playing maokai or jayce? dodge. ADC got a lower than 50% winrate with their selected champ? dodge. Support not playing Leona/Taric? Dodge if their winrate with selected is below 60%. Enemy pick Ezreal? Dodge. Enemy pick Malzahar? Dodge. If my midlane is not strictly meta? Dodge.
AquariusGine2 votesI can predict with 70+% accuracy whether I win or lose based on the champs I see in champ select. I dodge constantly trying to avoid the tiniest disadvantage because it's pretty much instalose nowadays. 2 assassins on 1 team? dodge. No tank? dodge. Toplaner not playing maokai or jayce? dodge. ADC got a lower than 50% winrate with their selected champ? dodge. Support not playing Leona/Taric? Dodge if their winrate with selected is below 60%. Enemy pick Ezreal? Dodge. Enemy pick Malzahar? Dodge. If my midlane is not strictly meta? Dodge.
This this this this x 1000
DarkRooster3 votesI could argue so much with you about everything, then i realized you are not doing anything bad or illegal, so why not. Your win or loss.
Critmaster Garen29 votesgames are snowballing out of bot lane, because crit and support builds are the cheapest builds in the game.
plus, kills on bot lane often result in 2 people getting fed instead of one. or the marksman getting super fed with multiple kills off one fight and then turret first blood.
on top of it, crit items synergize with each other in a way where they outscale all other carry itemization in the game.
i mean its pretty obvious how all these factors combined make bot lane the absolutely dominating factor over the game. one fight down there gives one side such a massive power spike of cheap and powerful items, that theyre just running away with the game.
they need to largely increase the price of crit items. zeal items need to cost 300 to 400 gold more. infinity edge and essence reaver a 100 gold more than they do now. stattic shiv and rapidfire should not be allowed to stack anymore to prevent this dumb burst that comes out of marksmen builds.
its downright absurd how cheap completed zeal items are for how strongly they scale.
Karunamon2 votesThat's not much of a gold increase do you think? Would increasing the cost by 2-4 minion waves worth of CS make that much of a difference?
Critmaster Garen10 votesThat's not much of a gold increase do you think? Would increasing the cost by 2-4 minion waves worth of CS make that much of a difference?
it would make a difference. stacking double zeal and i.e. would become 700 gold to 800 gold more expensive which would put it "just" on even terms with bruiser and mage item costs.
it would delay marksmen power spikes of a single kill or a double kill at least.
Kythers17 votessurrender 10 when
DontTouchMyBall1 votessurrender 10 when
Don't you mean at champ select instead?
Kingdom Corn1 votessurrender 10 when
10? lol don't you see a pattern? In a few more patches games will last an average of 10 minutes so people will ask for 5 min surrender, then games wont even last enough for you to gain xp.
General Esdeath 7 votes"gg adc missed a CS, ff at 3"
MrHaZeYo14 votesThey need to add base Armor and MR to almost every champion.
Then we wouldn't be in this snowball mess, at least not as bad.
Critmaster Garen11 votesThey need to add base Armor and MR to almost every champion.
Then we wouldn't be in this snowball mess, at least not as bad.
they did add base armor. every single champion either got some extra base health added or 9 armor, or a combination of armor and health to compensate for the lack of yellow runes. some tanks got like 20 base armor increases if im not mistaken. the lack of mr isnt the reason why games snowball.
if you pay attention, its always bot lane thats snowballing out of control and running away with the game, because adc items are absurdly cheap.
double zeal + i.e. items are built on almost every marksman.
the other ones are combining i.e. + shiv with a lethality item like 
in either case, these builds are the cheapest 3 item builds in the game just after support itemization (who are also laning on bot, and exist to inject even more stats into the adc) by a large margin of 500 to 1000 gold behind all other carry classes. yet they scale the hardest by synergizing with themselves by multiplying ad, crit, crit damage and attack speed with each other.
Winterwings12 votesI find it funny how someone named "Critmaster Garen" can complain this much about Crit itemization in specific... Real ironic, eh? No offense, im not trying to be a d1ck or anything, just poking some light fun...
[garen-swing]
Critmaster Garen8 votes[{quoted}](name=Azure Northwing,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEvAFerO,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T15:59:45.396+0000)
I find it funny how someone named "Critmaster Garen" can complain this much about Crit itemization in specific... Real ironic, eh? No offense, im not trying to be a d1ck or anything, just poking some light fun...
[garen-swing]
i gladly pay 100 gold more for i.e. if other lanes than bot get some agency over the game in return.
zeal items being sold at discount price has been going on for too long.
Winterwings4 votesIm not sure a price increase of 100 gold would be enough to swing the current situation around, the problem with ADC (mainly crit) itemization is, as you yourself said, far more deeply rooted in the ridiculous amount of synergy the stat has with other ADC-desirable stats...
Critmaster Garen2 votes[{quoted}](name=Azure Northwing,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEvAFerO,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-11T21:06:51.583+0000)
Im not sure a price increase of 100 gold would be enough to swing the current situation around, the problem with ADC (mainly crit) itemization is, as you yourself said, far more deeply rooted in the ridiculous amount of synergy the stat has with other ADC-desirable stats...
i said 300 to 400 gold on completed zeal items and a 100 gold on i.e.
Disembark1 votesI’ve already pointed this out, that is absurd.
Crit ADCs go from troll pick to pick/ban because IE reduced price by 200, zeal reduced by 100 (NOT completed zeal items though).
Combined with lethality nerfs.
What the fuck do you think will happen if you raise all Zeal item costs by 400?
Also you people keep talking like Crit ADCs are even doing so hot now. Keep seeing people blame Crit itemization for “snowballing” but lethality users and Ezreal have by FAR the highest pick and win rates. It honestly feels like the people posting here haven’t even played the game since patch 7.18
Critmaster Garen3 votesI’ve already pointed this out, that is absurd.
Crit ADCs go from troll pick to pick/ban because IE reduced price by 200, zeal reduced by 100 (NOT completed zeal items though).
Combined with lethality nerfs.
What the fuck do you think will happen if you raise all Zeal item costs by 400?
Also you people keep talking like Crit ADCs are even doing so hot now. Keep seeing people blame Crit itemization for “snowballing” but lethality users and Ezreal have by FAR the highest pick and win rates. It honestly feels like the people posting here haven’t even played the game since patch 7.18
yeah, lets just ignore WHY they were considered "troll picks"
because when lethality items were released, adc abused the shit out of them to cheese themselves burst in lane and early/midgame power spikes that they never were supposed to have. they switched from crit to lethality not because crit was bad. but lethality was broken on adc.
going from there they constantly kept flipping between lethality and crit builds depending on the state of lethality. instead of fixing the issue and slapping melee only tags on these items or putting range penalties on them, riot buffed the everloving shit out of crit items to the point where theyre cheaper than lethality builds, despite scaling harder.
bullshit dude. they "fixed" one broken adc build with another broken adc build thats what happened.
your "troll builds" were the same builds that were effective on marksmen for 6 years. what really needs to happen is a price nerf to crit items, and then making lethality less accessable for marksmen.
V The Support V2 votesContributing to this, from what I've seen, is most people vie for double rune pages of DMG instead of picking up any defenses.
Then they wonder why they get blown up, enemies get ahead, and subsequently come to "vent" that everyone does, "Too much damage".
OilegibtKoile3 votesWell, I started winning lane more often when I started picking up resolve for my secondary path. Too many people are obsessed with having 2 damage paths availlable and they just want to destroy everything with their tons of damage only to be met with another individual who actually succeeds to pump out tons of damage.
Sraeg20134 votesWhat defenses?
+5 armor/MR is a joke, not defense.
Before preseason I could start with +27 MR and ~200 HP if I really wanted to.
Whisper872 votesDid they really need to nerf any starting defense stats? Like if they noticed that pretty much all adc's are rocking full AD reds and full MR blues, and like 6 armor yellows, shouldn't they just give those stats to them base to begin with. Or like melee's going full armor yellows and 1-2 HP quints, just give them that armor and HP.
Riot said the reason they changed the runes is so that hey affect the game in interesting ways and impact the various playstyles. You don't have to nerf base stats to achieve this. Just give every single the champs the hp, armor, and MR they would have had under the old system as base stats, then roll out the NEW RUNES on top of that. And you don't have to worry about tanks outdamaging assassins and bruisers because the squishies are tanky enough live through a tank's damage and the assassins and bruiser get extra damage out of their electrocute, dark harvest, press the attack, comet, etc etc.
Sujiren12 votesThe bright side is you can play more games now with shorter matches.
Pandemic Punch2 votesThis is true. There was also a time when people were complaining about games being too long. Especially around when Overwatch hit it's peak.
ZT Xperimentor2 votesNot really a benefit when it takes nearly as long to get into a game from long queue times.
azrolator2 votesYes. I feel like there is very little benefit to a surrender at 15 when it takes 10-15 just to get into a rift draft game. Might as well just take another 15 and try to win rather than waste everyone's time with surrendering.
Noblewind10 votesThis is where I sometimes feel grateful for being in low Elo...no matter what we can play what we want and every game is a winnable shit show
Violet Fields2 votesHence why me climbing to gold was a terrible idea. Now I'm stuck with Golds in every single one of my games who plays the same champions every game. I swear, I haven't seen a single Skarner this entire preseason.
Metal Janna6 votesThis Riot. I feel like ever since 7.22 harassing the enemy with poke as a support just forces an all in, because my damage is too high. At the same time, when they do all in, they delete me because their damage is too high. And then there's the crit itemization issues Critmaster Garen pointed out elsewhere in this thread, which makes one successful battle botlane result in a fed laner.
Gives No Lux1 votesSimple solution: stop making mistakes and snowball yourself instead.
Whisper874 votesThis makes perfect, sense, except for the fact that some team comps are specifically designed to just survive the early game and make it to the 5v5 stage where grouping has as much impact as a strong lane bully or assassin. They are supposed to get behind early of course, but by hanging and continuously "losing the minimum" they stabilize the game to a slow bleed and then turn it around when things like a pure utility tank, pure utility support, and auto attacking ADC come online. Think of what SKT has been so historically good at when they get behind. They get behind by like 6 kills early, lose 2/3 outers and a drake before they even take one outer, but they stabilize it and eventually turn it around by losing the minimum and then punishing the maximum when they find an opening.
By buffing early game damage output, or nerfing early game defensive stats, you are effectively nerfing not just specific champs, but an entire style of play. And yes, I get the casuals and LCS fans want to see fighting and kills earlier and more often because it's exciting. But when you nerf entire classes of champs like that the pool gets limited, every game starts to feel a bit like a shit show, and every game feels like it's 80% reliant on early laning. This is funny and interesting at first, but get's boring in it's own way very quickly.
A good answer to this is buffing the ability to neutralize lanes. Last split everyone complained about tanks. They were overtuned to the point where they could not only act as a meat shield, but outduel other melees early on and delete squishies throughout pretty much the whole game. So let's say we are approaching Maokai, who they nerfed his Q. Instead of straight up nerfing it, you nerf it's damage to champs but not to minions so that way his ability to wave clear and farm safely is not hindered (or you could maybe move some damage off his q and put it on his saplings which are tough to get onto champs but easy if you want to use them on creeps).
The counter argument to this is that if you can just wave clear on him safely there are no openings for bruisers and assassins to punish early game. This is not accurate as those classes are much more equipped to proactive early. If Maokai can wave clear early but not damage champs, your bruisers and assassins should have priority on basically all natural objectives. You should be taking drakes, buffs, aggressive warding, counterjungling, and setting up multi person dives every time someone overstays in lane. Through team play and being smart.
Summary: Right now basically you just get out statted, not outplayed. Early game dudes get one kill in each lane and take 1 tower and the game is over because they just have so much kill pressure so early. There is so much more pressure on scaling comps to play the early game perfect, assasins and other aggressive comps should feel a similar pressure. Both teams should feel massive mental pressure early. Scaling team is like: oh man we got to just keep it to a slow bleed, and not get totally shat on early, scrap together every nickel I can find. While the snowball team should be like: can't let the pressure off for a second, we on a timer, if I die by misplaying a dive I should have succeeded at with my superior kill pressure I will give them an extra 45 seconds on my 10 minute timer, etc etc. In short, making successful, team oriented plays should be just as rewarding, and making mistakes hurts your butthole just as much regardless of scaling or burst oriented comp.
I'm pointing at the removal of catchup mechanics being released at the same time they provided damage buffs to certain classes, at the same time they nerfed based defenses. It's a huge swing in one direction, and if your answer is to go defensive stuff in secondary tree then it's almost worse because if ur a Trist going into a Lucian, he not only has more early game already, but goes gathering storm secondary tree so his window to be ahead is EVEN LONGER because while you are stalling the game out and scaling off base stats and items, he is also receiving passive bonus AD every 10 minutes. It's a damned if you do damned if you don't situation as scaling carries, mid or bot.
Gives No Lux2 votesThen don't die early. If you're playing a comp designed to just survive the early game and you fail to do that then why should you be rewarded with the chance to turn the tide later?
If you deny snowball champs the ability to get kills then they don't snowball. Yes, this means you trade off the ability to CS well and get any early leads but that's the point. Working as intended.
There is a good reason that Zed is one of the highest overall performing champs but he doesn't have an amazing win rate. You just need to adapt your style to counter snowballs.
The two biggest reasons that I end up losing to assassins are: One or two team members see a 4/1 Kat or Akali and just give up and start spamming /ff, OR I keep the assassin down for the early game but other lanes play risky and end up feeding them a bunch of kills anyways.
I hate playing against assassins as a mage main but I'm ok with the pace of games right now, I just feel that they need to get some itemization changes to balance out the pacing of power spikes across classes. It's o.k. that dirk gives a power boost to ad assassins on first or second buy but the comparative codex and amp tome for mages isn't on par.
I am hoping they do an itemization pass before season starts but that doesn't look like it will be the case.
Whisper873 votesThat itemization pass is exactly what i'm talking about. Even if you lay uber safe it takes so long to get to comparable power level that the windows for success are just way too different. And to be clear I think the game is too snowbally even if you are playing a scaling team fight comp against another scaling team fight comp.
Think about the season where Samsung White won worlds. Lucian and corki were meta, but so were twitch and trist. Janna and thresh both equally meta, Ryze and Fizz equally meta, Rumble and Maokai equally meta, Nunu and Elise both meta. Because the windows for success for both styles were very similar and if you looked at teams playing lucian, thresh, fizz into teams playing orianna, janna, trist - the results were basically 50-50. Not to mention poke comps also had a place in those days with the Jayce, Corki, Rumble trinity being intact.
THAT is a perfectly balanced league. This preseason, however, it looks like you either play high burst damage poke or high burst damage pick/dive...that's it.
Gives No Lux1 votesMost of that has to do with the differences between coordinated team play vs the fuster cluck that most of the rest of us play in. Realistically it's not the game that's snowballing it's a few champs that are good at capitalizing on uncoordinated team mistakes.
You can ward river, ping repeatedly on Zed as he's visibly moving toward bot lane and they will still continue to poke at the enemy tower and scream at you for not following your lane after they feed a double kill even if you were in fountain shopping.
Mistakes are really easy to punish in a severe way right now but that goes the same for both sides. I've found it easier mid game in per-season as the pressure I can apply from mid feels much more impactful.
Whisper872 votesSo are we saying that Riot doesn't want people in solo q to be able to stabilize and recover after getting behind early. I mean, I'm sure SKT and other top tier teams can do so, as per my earlier comment, but don't you think that getting behind early, but being able to slow the bleeding, then stop the bleeding, then make a turn around play is something that should happen in solo q?
Let's be honest one sided stomps are not very fun whether you are winning or losing. And it feels like every solo q game is a one sided stomp. Like if the game is perfectly balanced shouldn't it be 1/3 snowball stomps, 1/3 comeback wins, and 1/3 games where the teams are pretty even in a good tug of war until one team edges out?
Gives No Lux1 votesIf you go back and analyze the replays, unless you're in mid diamond or higher then there's nearly always a way to come back from being down early. The issue is that almost always players don't adopt the necessary strategy to do so. Most people always play the game like they're even or ahead all of the time.
The reason champs snowball isn't because they get an early item advantage, that only strengthens them. They snowball so hard because they keep capitalize on the player making the same mistake over and over until they ARE out of hand.
Sure that isn't much fun for the team who has the guy that won't stop feeding but the alternative where defensive items are strong enough to make up for poor decisions or lack of skill.
League shifted to be much more casual friendly the past couple of seasons and this pre-season it's shifted to being maybe 20% more competitive than before and it's going to take some time for people to adapt.
Whisper872 votesI understand how snowballing works and why it is a necessary part of the game. And I also understand that in solo q there are always opportunities for comeback. My question is, why did Riot deem it necessary to make the comeback more difficult. I mean it's pretty much impossible to say they haven't considering they took away comeback XP from kill. So in last season maybe a 1k deficit at 10 minutes shut the door like 30%, now that same deficit shuts the door like halfway.
Putting so much emphasis on early game and laning hurts the health of the game. You basically have to win 2/3 lanes now to have a chance, where as before you could say that if you were winning 1 lane you had a fighting chance. And just think about how limiting it is to absolutely NEED to go even or better in lane. Think about stuff like maokai and rumble where you're like, eh, I can be behind by 20-30 cs or whatever in lane, but it's ok if I lose my lane a little because my champ is PERFECT for our team fights. If you put more emphasis on the first 10 minutes, you effectively shut out the option of choosing a synergistic team comp over strong lanes.
Again, this limits your options, which means game is less dynamic and fun. I'll always to back to the season where Samsung White won worlds as the ideal balance. Pick comps were viable, poke comps were viable, engage wombo was viable, disengage shielding team fights were viable, early game and late game champs were viable in literally every role, assassins and control mages alike were played mid, engage and ranged supports both saw play.
And I would argue that making the game naturally shorter actually caters to casuals more as most of them have the win or lose in 20 mins mentality (which is actually more like win or lose in 15 now with the new surrender system). My point is there has to be a limit, Riot cannot keep shortening the average game length. Think of watching a good best of 5 series, part of the fun is in the back and forth. If your individual matches have a little rubberband back and forth, you can capture a bit of that excitement in solo q. No one likes a game where you just turn off your brain and are just like "i wish they would just surrender already" then you have to play it out for several more minutes. BUT, if you know that even with your 5k lead you have to be very very on your toes, that match becomes much more engaging and more fun. I always tell my teamates that there is no such thing as a lead so big you can just screw around, and I believe Riot should embrace that idea, rather than make the point where people are so far ahead they can go YOLO mode even earlier. I'd also say that shorter games means the game is LESS competitive. Because while the skill gap may have become much more apparent in how the early to mid game plays out, players can just focus a ton on laning and climb really high. I say as a community we should be thinking about having even new or bronze players learn from the the ground up that your laning, macro, team fighting, vision control, and the like are all equally important.
If a team if 4/10 at laning but 6/10 at team fighitng and objective control, they should stand a perfectly fine chance against a team that is 6/10 at laning but 4/10 at the other stuff. Right now that is not the case at all. Don't let "win lane win game" and one tricks stop people from playing League of Legends instead of YOLO Q.
Gives No Lux1 votesI don't feel this to be the case and I don't feel that the data represents this as well. I win often enough with one or two lanes behind to believe that it's quite possible. That doesn't mean that it's easy and just as often we lose but I rarely feel that I have no chance of winning except for a couple of champs like Master Yi.
I do quite often feel that teammates just give up and that hurts our chances much more than anything the opponents are doing.
Whisper872 votesI definitely don't feel like it's impossible to make a comeback, but I think it's just harder now. There are fewer windows and those windows are smaller.
Catchup Xp used to make it so that if you were behind by several kills and a tower or two, you were effectively back in the game if you got a kill on a high priority target. You bought yourself a lot of time because of that xp surge. If there is no xp surge then that window for a comeback you had is smaller, the impact of a "comeback kill" is smaller.
Now also combine this with the fact that assassins are working with electrocute which may not be as good for trading as thunderlords was, but is actually better in all ins. Then take in to account that early game defensive stats have been nerfed, then take into account that if you choose to go defense in your secondary tree you are contributing to the power gap in a meaningful way because you can't take things like gathering storm on an adc in your secondary tree (so it takes even longer to catch up in terms of damage cuz you're not just trying to catch up in items and xp, but now a passive stat gain too).
I mean when you look at it like this I don't know how you can say Riot hasn't made snowballing through the early-mid game more impactful. They've made it easier to slam the door shut when you get ahead. I play in the mid platinum tier which I know is not very high but people at least have a rudimentary concept of the game, and still I'd say at least 4/5 games I play are fully one sided stomps win or lose. They should not just keep lowering the average game time. This is I believe the 3rd time in the past 5 seasons where fairly major changes have come down that result in a lower average game time. Do we just have to sit back and accept that in a couple years the average game time is gonna be like 24 minutes in solo q and just hand the game over to the aggro monkeys?
Barcid2 votesThe issue isn't even just that an enemy can snowball the game out of control.
Me snowballing the game out of control through virtually no real effort in a matter of a couple minutes out of a potential 20 is not challenging at all, and after the first couple times of doing it the relative lack of effort required to get a team rolling is so token it's not even rewarding. Being able to tell how a game will go after the first few minutes kind of ruins the competitive aspect when you have essentially dwarfed the competition. It's utterly droll to have to close out a game when you can already tell you've won it, and it's even more of a pisser with it being the other way around where you're waiting for the game to end when you can tell you've lost it.
Literally neither aspect is fun is what makes it such an issue.
Gives No Lux1 votesWell, if you're steamrolling then you should be climbing rank until you face opponents that are experienced enough to give you a challenge.
It's your attitude that determines if a game is unwinnable after the first few minutes, not the actual game mechanics.
Barcid2 votesAfter 4 years on this game and trying to relax in Plat with the nightmarish hellhole that is Diamond 5, I can safely say that you are actually 100% wrong.
There is a point where the game ceases to be in a team's hands and it comes down to the play of the team that is winning. The "game of throws", as it's known, literally translates to the winning team throwing their own lead. At a certain point, this is of the winning team's own volition, not through the merit of the team that is behind. And in the current game climate, this is most certainly an idea that comes into play constantly - once ahead, a team snowballs far more often than not, and with the current way that gold flow works and itemization is, what appears to be a relatively small lead is actually entire leagues of difference in power.
While you can lie and delude yourself all you want, but I can assure you you haven't a clue what you're talking about yet. And I'm sure Riot will be more than happy to demonstrate in due time if they continue down this path.
Gives No Lux1 votesAgain, this is just your own attitude. For the winning team to throw then the losing team has to capitalize on their mistakes. It's the exact same thing just looking at it from different sides of the coin.
If one team gets ahead early you would EXPECT them to do better more often that doesn't mean that it's impossible for a different outcome. If a single player is popping off it's even easier to come back because all of their advantage is on one player. More often than not that player gets cocky as well and you can turn the tide quite easily by shutting them down.
Fact of the matter is the hard snowball champs aren't the ones filling up the top 10 in %wins so it's entirely a perception that you have and not what the actual data shows.
Barcid2 votesTop 10 in winrate:
Rammus: some of the best ganks in the game with an enormous speed boost and point-and-click taunting along with the best defensive steroid of the early game. Wins by snowballing lanes, benefits more from ADC meta.
Morgana: was recently revamped (with her spell vamp, ha), insane amount of CC in a mass area, but requires her to be in somebody's face. Strong already, snowballs and becomes even stronger through sheer bulk.
Miss Fortune: most viable build is literally straight armor pen and lethality. Lethality is strongest early before the enemy team can start building armor.
Zilean: Played by barely anyone. His winrate is a reflection of the winrates of the people who main him. Irrelevant in this discussion.
Leona: Diving support, literally having the sole goal of snowballing her own lane by all-inning constantly. I don't even know how you didn't get this one.
Taric: Same thing, played less often and generally less reliable at it.
Ezreal: The premiere early game ADC that has to rely upon snowballing himself early to stomp the game in a decent amount of time. His winrate is entirely a product of the current game climate.
Teemo: Primary top-lane harasser, becomes near ungankable once past 6 and fed due to his ult and speed. Snowballs his lead with constant pressure.
Xerath: So long-ranged it's near impossible to reach him if he's fed before getting blown up. Snowballs.
Zyra: Similar to Zilean, played by barely anyone. Irrelevant.
Once again. You are utterly and completely wrong. All the top winrates right now focus on snowballing in one way or another. You not only misunderstand the mechanics of the game right now, you misunderstand the entire champion roster.
The worst part is that you have literally argued my own point at me.
[{quoted}](name=Gives No Lux,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GEvAFerO,comment-id=00080001000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-12T05:56:56.277+0000)
Again, this is just your own attitude. For the winning team to throw then the losing team has to capitalize on their mistakes. It's the exact same thing just looking at it from different sides of the coin.
If one team gets ahead early you would EXPECT them to do better more often that doesn't mean that it's impossible for a different outcome. If a single player is popping off it's even easier to come back because all of their advantage is on one player. More often than not that player gets cocky as well and you can turn the tide quite easily by shutting them down.
#The enemy team must in all cases be the ones to make the mistakes first.
You have just agreed with my point. It is up to the enemy team to first make a mistake in order for you to capitalize on it. The thing about this season is that "mistakes" are harder and harder to effectively punish since the gap in power widens very, very quickly - hence the issue with snowballing. And when you have a very wide power gap, it thus takes bigger and bigger mistakes to close it - to the point that there are very much instances where these mistakes simply don't matter.
Again. You simply don't understand the game right now. You have displayed that clearly here.
Gives No Lux1 votesOh, so your definition of snowball is just whatever you just feel like putting that label on. Your list is: Tank Support ADC Support/Mid Tank Tank ADC/Jungle Ranged AP DPS Support Mage
Note aside from MF and Ez none of these are hard carries. None of them are snowball assassins or mages. They are your standard, typical every day champs for their roles.
It really sounds to me like you're just sore about losing and you're making up any excuse you can that ISN'T your own gameplay.
Calling Teemo a SNOWBALL champ just seals the deal. Teemo ffs. You know, when every champ is a snowball, then nobody is.
Whisper871 votesI think his point is that champions who are designed to win lane so that you can close out in the early portions of mid game (Leona), or champions who hit a natural power spike in the mid game (Ezreal) are a bit overtuned at the moment.
I mean the whole concept of snowballing is getting buff and taking over the game before things like scaling and/or team fight synergy have a chance to come online. The fact that champions like that are being played more often and seeing high win rates means people are prioritizing them because they are seeing success with them.
There is a reason why all the streamers are playing lethality poke varus instead the auto attack version now days - they all agree it's more reliable in terms of seeing impact/success. If the game were balanced properly, you should be able to look at the top 5 most winning champs in any role (given they have a reasonable sample size of being played regularly) and see a good mix of early-mid game snowballers, lane bullies, scaling team fighters, and more team-oriented utility picks.
Im an ADC main so from my point of view that means I'd like to took at the most winning champs and see a mix of things like mid game focused ezreal and MF, then some utility focused ashe or kalista, then some scalers like trist and kog. The only scaling adc's seeing strong success right now are things like Twitch and Vayne who (surprise surprise) have some windows in the mid game that the other scaling adcs like trist and kog don't have. And the "utility" adc's being prioritized right now are jhin and varus who are both able to transition in the high poke/burst lethality builds (again focused on mid game).
Now you could say this is just because people are just choosing to play more lane bullies and mid game spikers and that is why the games feel so snowball. THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT. People are picking champs like this because they feel like they have the most reliable results, their experience is telling them that if they choose lane bullies or those who hit big early/mid game power spikes, their chance of winning is higher than if they chose to go utility and assist the team or go scaling and farm for team fights. When you see the vast majority of a community trending in one direction, it is a BIG sign that things are significantly wrong.
Riot recognized this with the ardent sensor mess last season and fixed it in a reasonable, controlled manner. I'm looking for them to do something similar maybe with lethality, buffs to base defensive stats, or tweaks to the sorcery/domination trees.
