Is Karma a disruptive bursty battle-artillery enchanter?

SilverSquid··23 votes·6,534 views

I've just read Riot's new Dev Blog about classes and subclasses (check it out, there's a Vlad teaser in it :)!). Since I am always interested in game design, I was eager to read what Riot had to write and then, just for fun, tried to find out, where Karma would fit in. And it left me really confused. Obviously, she is a mage, so she could be a:

  • Burstmage Lux Veigar
  • Battlemage Karthus Vladimir
  • Artillery mage Ziggs Xerath
  • Enchanter Lulu Janna
  • Disruptor Anivia Zyra

Since in terms of design, she is supposed to be close to Lux, let's see if she fits the Burstmages description:

Burst Mages aim to single out vulnerable targets by locking them down and following up with a devastating barrage of damage from range. Burst Mages struggle heavily against beefier targets who can shrug off their initial spike of damage.

So, Karma has troubles with beefier targets and she can deal devastating damage from range.... but to lock down, she has to cuddle for a while and what she does really isn't a "barrage" either. Besides, she has short cooldowns, so maybe she is a Battlemage?`

Battle Mages get into the middle of the fray, seeking to wreak havoc upon the entire enemy team with their overwhelming sustained area damage. Due to their relatively short (but not melee) combat ranges and the need to burn down their opponents over time, Battle Mages have significant defensive capabilities that range from sustaining endlessly to literally defying death for a short period of time.

Karma seems to have really good defensive capabilities, and one could argue that her RW lets her defy death pretty well,.... but she doesn't exactly have "overwhelming sustained area damage". Soooo..... maybe her RQ qualifies her for Artillery Mages?

Artillery Mages are the masters of range, and they leverage that advantage to whittle down their opponents over time from great distances. In turn, Artillery Mages are severely punished when enemies finally succeed in closing in on them, due to their extreme fragility and limited mobility.

Well, she does wittle down enemies from afar, it's just not really great distances. She also seems to have troubles when being closed on, but significantly less than other mages.

So this isn't getting us anywhere. How about Lulu/Janna, who Karma is frequently compared to. Can she share their "Enchanter" subclass?

Enchanters focus on amplifying their allies’ effectiveness by directly augmenting them and defending them from incoming threats. Enchanters themselves are often quite fragile and bring relatively low damage to the table, meaning they really only shine when grouped together with others.

Her E and RE would fit this, as Karma profits from lategame teamfights, in which she can shield everyone and defend allies from incoming threats. However, is Karma's damage "relatively low"? I wouldn't dare to say. She also doesn't directly amplify her allies' effectiveness, like Lulu's & Janna's shields do. So, what about the last category? Zyra is another mage support, in the end.... can Karma be a Disruptor?

Disruptors specialize in locking down opponents or, in some cases, entire battlefields by creating intense zones of threat that only foolish enemies would dare wade through. Although not as reliant on their friends as Enchanters, the fragile and immobile Disruptors greatly benefit from allied presence - both to deter incoming danger and to help capitalize on targets they’ve locked down.

Well, Karma's RQ kiiiiiind of creates a zone of threat. Karma also isn't as reliant on allies, while still profiting from allies, who she can lock targets down for with RW.... but then again, she really can't easily or reliably create those zones and her lockdown and damage zones exclude each other. Compared to Zyra/Anivia she has no reliable lockdown and can AT BEST only lock down one target, slowly and unreliably.

So what is Karma? And does it matter?

Maybe not. Riot did say, that these are "more a set of guidelines than rigid rules" and it is very likely - or even better - if some champions explore the outskirts of those subclasses, while maybe crossing over to another subclass. So having champions who don't clearly fit one of those is to be expected.

But in terms of design it seems VERY concerning to me, that this champion falls awkwardly over five outskirts AT ONCE. This, to me, indicates a very strong confusion of roles and a HEAVY disconnect with Riot's current understanding of champion design. So, are the subclasses not good enough to describe Karma, or is Karma so far removed from fitting a role, that it explodes Riot's terminology? And is this a problem?

I am interested in what you think. And in what Riot thinks, but I don't eally expect an answer. Let's discuss :)!

63 Comments

IxtaliKing6 votes

Lol its funny that she's literally a bit of everything, it's disturbing that she fits into every mage subclass and still got missed in the mage update though. Old Karma definitely would have been a supportive take on a battle mage though.

Uracle1 votes

Because she's considered a more supportive champion and not a flat out mage. So she'll be in the support rework...if they do one?

SilverSquid4 votes

Her rework put her in line with Orianna, Lux and Morgana. First and foremost, all 4 of those are mages.

A "support rework" would probably target enchanters, like Lulu, Janna, Nami and Sona, who fight over relevancy, as they all have some MS, some CC, some heals.... and step on each other's toes. If Karma doesn't qualify as an enchanter - which with the damage she currently has, she does not - she will probably be left out too.

But they will do assasins next anyways (~november), so the next class rework after that will be in a year. And I can't handle another year of mindlessly buffing Karma and "we currently don't have any plans regarding Karma". Yes. Yes we get it. You are clueless about Karma. It's become very apparant....

Sorry, I am getting cynical again.

Quepha6 votes

Battlemage, secondary in enchanter. Her low cooldown Q means that she is constantly peppering the enemy with magic damage and her shields enable her allies to accomplish whatever they need to, which her slows and snares also help her peel enemies and set up picks.

Nameless Voice1 votes

Agree, these are the two that fit her the most.

Artillery are supposed to have very long range but be very fragile up close - that's not Karma. She relies on low-cooldown medium-range poke - that's a Battle Mage. The rest of her kit fits in the Enchanter category, with some elements of Disruptor.

IxtaliKing2 votes

Her RQ puts her in Burst Mage category too. So she's Burst Mage, Battle Mage, Enchanter and Disruptor.

SilverSquid2 votes

But neither a battlemage, nor an enchanter should have the long range burst/poke, that her RQ provides. Ryze, Cass and Vlad don't have that for a reason. Neither do Nami, Janna, Lulu.

Should her RQ be reworked to fit those two roles better?

RiotMeddler14 votes

We're still talking about Karma too, Battle Mage/Enchanter hybrid is the current front runner for us too though. It's not a perfect description, but these class definitions are intended to be ways of assessing champions, not rigid 'here's what a champion has to be' rules or anything.

SexySoapTurtle2 votes

{quoted}

We're still talking about Karma too, Battle Mage/Enchanter hybrid is the current front runner for us too though. It's not a perfect description, but these class definitions are intended to be ways of assessing champions, not rigid 'here's what a champion has to be' rules or anything.

So is she a support or not

Elewd1 votes

She can support with her kit but is more akin to say Zyra support where shes more focused on snowballing a lane.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

Not all enchanters have to be support. Karma is like morgana can be mid or sup

IcyPepper1 votes

not rigid 'here's what a champion has to be' rules or anything.

I think that means they really don't know quite yet.

Let them define what she actually is first, before we worry about positions.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

So is she a support or not

There is no support class. There's a support role and Karma does work in that role.

SexySoapTurtle2 votes

{quoted}

There is no support class. There's a support role and Karma does work in that role.

Maybe not for you. But for real karma players like me. She definitely does.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

Maybe not for you. But for real karma players like me. She definitely does.

I feel like you misread my post.

SexySoapTurtle1 votes

{quoted}

I feel like you misread my post.

I'm an idiot. Thats my bad.

bloodmoth3 votes

I guess this has been her problem for a while now, she does too much. She has battle mage features, artillery features and enchanter features with a dash of disrupter features.

I wonder how karma players would feel about having some of that power trimmed? perhaps her most defining feature is that she doesnt fit into a single class and is leagues premiere generalist mage?

Scoroct2 votes

I think it would be cool to have at least someone be "the generalist mage" whether thats karma or not is up for debate but its a cool outlier role for someone to fill.

bloodmoth3 votes

I actually think that she is a really good candidate, her mantra can lock her power away so that she can perform decently at a number of roles but only 1 at a time.

DeathBurst1 votes

I disagree that she has any Artillery features, her longer range is RQ, and it's not that long compared to Velkoz or Xerath or Ziggs.

On the other hand, she has a hint of Battle Mage, with her effective range, but I think she lacks the raw power of the others cited in this category (Vlad/Swain).

As I said above, for me she's an Enchanter/Disruptor. Which one exactly isn't clear, but she's right in the middle of the Controller super-class.

bloodmoth1 votes

True, i keep thinking her mantrad Q has longer range, i guess we could see her focused more to the battle mage enchanter/disrupter side of things... Actually, shes really just a battle mage/disrupter with some minor enchanter stuff on the side (like how lux is burst mage/artillery with enchanter stuff on the side)

LankPants1 votes

Where would you say Sona falls then? Because this one seems particularly unclear to me.

For me I'd say she's probably primarily offensive with her buffing capabilities being secondary. (which is a huge problem) She's kind of pokey but really lacks the range of an artillery champion. She's kind of bursty but lacks the actual burst of a burst mage. She has her "aura" buffs but the utility seems too low to really considerer her an enhancer.

If I had to chose I'd currently say Burstmage/Enhancer but it really feels more like she's just not really good enough at anything to fit one of these roles.

IxtaliKing8 votes

If you give back her shield bomb she'd feel even more like a Battle Mage/Enchanter ;)

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

If you give back her shield bomb she'd feel even more like a Battle Mage/Enchanter ;)

That doesn't fit into either the Battle Mage or Enchanter classes.

IxtaliKing2 votes

K.

TNHA Baritone4 votes

LOL The ignorance of that guys post.

IxtaliKing3 votes

Lol ikr. I'm sure he was just disagreeing for the sake of it, he does that a lot.

SilverSquid4 votes

I guess what I was trying to say is, that this is yet another way of highlighting that Karma lacks the meaningful strenghts and weaknesses roles (and other champions) generally seem to have.

Do you have any plans of narrowing her down on anything in the nearer future? Or do we have to wait for an enchanter class update?

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

I guess what I was trying to say is, that this is yet another way of highlighting that Karma lacks the meaningful strenghts and weaknesses roles (and other champions) generally seem to have.

Do you have any plans of narrowing her down on anything in the nearer future? Or do we have to wait for an enchanter class update?

But she does have the meaningful strengths and weaknesses you'd expect from that class definition.

She can't really burst or lock down targets, but she deals a solid amount of damage over time and provide enough light cc for kiting. Her range isn't amazing but she has tools that allow her to take a hit and protect herself. And on top of that her RE is a hugely powerful enabler for her team.

SilverSquid4 votes

How can you say she has meaningful strengths and weaknesses and then talk about so many things where she clearly isn't strong or weak anywhere?

Burst? I guess. Lockdown? Some Damage over time? Fairly Sustain? You could say so. Mobility? Well, she isn't completely immobile. Range? Not amazing but there Disengage? Soft, but not horrible Waveclear? Decent to "meh" Tankyness? For a mage it's good Teamprotection? Kinda better than having Locket/Talisman

I mean, seriously, she is so all over the place, that 70% of people agree she falls in all possible categories, while all categories were individually selected at least once. This is because people can't properly assign her pros/cons to any subclass.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

Burst? No. Lockdown? No. Damage over time? Solid. Sustain? No. Mobility? No. Range? Medium. Disengage? Very strong. Waveclear? Fine. Tankyness? For a mage it's good Teamprotection? Top 5 out of every champion in the game.

Fixed that for you.

SilverSquid6 votes

They literally let her oneshot a Noxian in the lore to justify her new kit. She literally has the longest root in the game. She has one of the best selfheals in the game. And she was excluded from the IMMOBILE mages by Riot.

You are so far removed from reality, it looks like you are talking about a different champion.

IxtaliKing5 votes

I could swear I hear a toilet flush every time I finish reading one of his comments. I'm convinced he's just trolling tbh.

SilverSquid3 votes

I sometimes check what he has to say on other subjects. He doesn't seem to provoke on purpose there. So either he is just trolling Karma topics (for whatever reason) or, what seems more likely, just isn't that bright (or simply missinformed) but very confident nonetheless.

But either I can broaden his horizon or he helps me spread correct information about Karma. So I don't mind explaining myself because of him.

IxtaliKing3 votes

I've only seen him do this trolling on Karma threads. How can he quite reasonably identify her as a Battle Mage, then say she has no sustain as if RW isn't the main reason she can even be considered that? He said she has no burst as if Q/RQ doesn't exist and no lockdown like she doesn't have 3s+ root. He's being contrary for the sake of it.

Quepha2 votes

{quoted}

They literally let her oneshot a Noxian in the lore to justify her new kit.

Is lore a gameplay mechanic now? Then I guess Lux is a stealth champion!

She literally has the longest root in the game.

Roots still let the enemy fight back, that's not lockdown

She has one of the best selfheals in the game.

And it does not at all work for sustain since she can't use it to top herself off, she can't use it repeatedly, and she needs an enemy target within her range to use it, you are completely misinterpreting RW if you think it's a sustain skill.

And she was excluded from the IMMOBILE mages by Riot.

Because she is very different from the champions they were working on. She has support elements in her kit that make working on her at this time silly.

SilverSquid6 votes

Is lore a gameplay mechanic now?

No, but RQ is.

Roots still let the enemy fight back, that's not lockdown

But they don't let enemies move, so it is lockdown.

you are completely misinterpreting RW if you think it's a sustain skill.

You are completely misinterpreting RW if you think it can't be used for sustain.

Because she is very different from the champions they were working on.

But she is also very similar to the champions they are working on.

Quepha1 votes

{quoted}

No, but RQ is.

That does not make Karma into a burst mage. She does not have much kill potential on targets unless she gets a snare off so she can guarantee the second hit of RQ, which means her "burst" is a 3 second long ordeal fraught with counterplay opportunities, that is not a burst pattern.

SilverSquid6 votes

If you use up all your damagespells in 3s with a huge spike in it, it's burst (counterplay is a nonfactor). Karma's RQ clearly shows a burstmage pattern, whereas the rest of her kit doesn't.

Scoroct1 votes

I think she has strengths and weaknesses in that she is basically a kite mage who has to stay just at arms reach to do what she wants to do, and has some tools to help her in it. Although maybe she is intended to be a generalist mage, which while not necessarily exciting in terms of design as some of these class descriptions, it is kinda cool to have someone who can adapt and do a bit of each.

StarfleetPony0011 votes

NO! DON'T TOUCH HER! I DON'T WANT HER TO BE Zilean and watch you fail completely with a rework for her. She is fine the way she is, she a LeeSin of supports without rediculous numbers like he has. She is balanced and she is fine and if you fuck her up, I promise I will fly to America and go on a rampage. She is literally the ONLY reason I play League now, she's the last champ I like.

Julanus3 votes

She already had a rework a little over 3 years ago that failed to preserve her character and playstyle.

What's another rework to once again fail to preserve either of her characters and playstyles?

trash sion1 votes

Any chance a full list of champions and their classes will be released soon?

TNHA Baritone1 votes

Hey Bud! Do you ever think she will receive any changes? Or do you think she is fine the way she is? Do you plan on changing her to fit more exactly into one of those roles? (Sorry for the multitude of questions)

MunchCrunchLunch5 votes

she has the most generic weird kit in the game.

iTaLenTZ3 votes

I ams sick and tired of all these QQ threads about Karma. I will tell you what she is: Obnoxious. In high diamond she is a regular pick for top, mid and support. Tank-Karma top is just as bad as Ekko to lane against. Karma mid falls of lategame in terms of power but if she has a team to cover that up she will be superstrong. Her perma engage/disengage/shields/Heal/Burst is a real horror to play against. She is a great support.

SilverSquid6 votes

So we can agree that a champion that is obnoxious, can be played anywhere and is "a real horror to play against" probably has issues, at least in terms of identity? Or is this your way of saying, she is fine this way?

iTaLenTZ1 votes

I definitely agree she has issues but one of them is not that she is weak like many of these Karma threads make her sound like.

SilverSquid6 votes

Haven't seen a post that claims "Karma is weak" in ages. It's usually either one of those:

  • Too obnoxious to play against
  • Lacking direction/niche/character/...
  • Doesn't have shieldbomb/isn't old Karma.

More from Gameplay

More by SilverSquid