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When am I supposed to stop carring about my terrible win rate?

Dukues··3 votes·603 views

Dumb title but honestly I don't know what to do anymore I just don't get this season at all. As always in my rant post, I want to say I know I am no where close to a great player. There are areas I need to improve on just like most players and I will continue to try and do that. But there are two things I do know.

  1. Gold is not challenger, so I don't need to play perfect.
  2. I am at the very least a consistent mid gold player.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=dukues

Then why after 72 solo/duo games do I still have a 40% win rate in silver?

lol it's not like I stopped playing for months and just came back I literally played probably 50 games during preseason. I ranked from gold 4 to gold 3 100lp quickly and at one point had plat 4 mmr (according to op.gg), I mean obviously I got on a lucky win streak but games were fun, competitive and exciting for me. Then I decided to play flex queue solo where I was stuck in silver 4 at end of season. Ranked from silver 4 100 lp to gold 5 in a week and went from less than 50% win rate to 57% win rate.

Why does this matter? Like... I know I am not good but its to paint a picture showing I know I can consistently play at a higher level than where I am currently at and to show I was doing well even with preseason changes.

Now... I did troll myself by playing on a tilt streak and also spamming adc. I still don't think I should have such a terrible w/r as adc as I do when I was playing better in most those games than the enemy adcs and almost any of my current adcs, but w/e. So back to jungle I go.

But even in jungle winning seems to be mostly about luck. Most losses come from uncontrollable feeding bot lanes. And my last 2 Shyvana games? As far as a low elo in gold to silver range goes they were close to fucking beautiful. Yet.... only win 1 of them and better yet the only reason I even won the first is because Nasus stupid op especially in shit elo so me and him could 2v5 fights or I probably would have lost that game too.

Riot, honestly you can change the game, change the meta, make new maps, do w/e. But your game still always going to be held back by crap match making. Now... looking back through my past games yea.... teams look even. But its like a post awhile back said according to league match making a 20-20-20-20-20 = 100 mmr verse 10-10-40-20-20 = 100 mmr looks even on paper, but ends up in reality netting to just terrible games. And even then shouldn't the higher mmr person win? hell probably but everyone does so much fucking damage these days the high mmr person get cc'd for 1 sec in a late game team fight they dead before they can outplay so it doesn't matter.

Just want to get back to playing "competitive" ranked games again. I get there will be stomps time to time. But right now... games seem like such a joke its hard to even queue up.

21 Comments

Subdue4 votes

I'll show you why you're stuck in 1 picture.

https://i.imgur.com/lAGp3z8.png

Your problem is that you don't seem to know how to transition a lead into a win. You lose games that you should easily win because you don't close them out. Take your last game for example. You're a 16/4/10 Shyvana. You were practically full build before 30 minutes into the game, massively ahead of anyone on either team. You should have had plenty of clout with your team at this point to just "Guys, follow me to victory!" I mean I kid you not, you could have probably walked right down mid lane, dove every tower, and taken every tower to the Nexus at this point on Shyvana with that lead.

But instead what happened? You had a lead from 11 minutes in to 31 minutes in. You had 20 minutes worth of ability to bully the enemy take every objective, and close out the game, and instead you lost it.

You might be tempted to say "Oh, it was Illaoi's fault for dying so much." Or "Oh it was Lux's fault for getting caught that one time." But the reality is, you had this game in your hands and you didn't close it out. /You/ were in control and /you/ didn't do anything about it.

Compare that game to what Fizz and his team did to you a few games before.

https://i.imgur.com/tWn3reH.png

After securing an early lead, they pushed you for objective after objective, and by 22 minutes in you were crushed. This is how the Shyvana game /should/ have gone, if /you/ knew what /you/ were doing.

Arcade Riven4 votes

The REALITY is that if you have teammates that refuse to group for objectives you are 1v5 and die.

What Fizz and his team did was picking Camille Top, who is basically unbeatable and abuse the fact that the game was 4v5 from min 3.

Yes someone could have won even that game, but http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=circle+yes+or+no even Drekar ( Challenger Rengar onetrick) can't even win all games in Bronze.

Subdue1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arcade Riven,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s6uUbIxL,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-05T17:19:48.031+0000)

The REALITY is that if you have teammates that refuse to group for objectives you are 1v5 and die.

What Fizz and his team did was picking Camille Top, who is basically unbeatable and abuse the fact that the game was 4v5 from min 3.

Yes someone could have won even that game, but http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=circle+yes+or+no even Drekar ( Challenger Rengar onetrick) can't even win all games in Bronze.

Uh, I don't know who Drekar is or if that's his account, and if it is, if only Drekar plays on it. However, no one claimed you can win EVERY game. And that particular account has won 17 of the last 20 ranked games played.

Dukues3 votes

I get what you are saying I really do. If this was season 6, it wouldn't even be a problem because jungle was op as fuck and solo carry was easy as hell. Except it not season 6. Also, you have to take some things into consideration.

I failed to control dragons this game. Why? two reasons.

  1. Lack of vision.
  2. Teammates being picked off and forcing 4v5 situations almost every time right before major objective spammed after 15 mins. Yes, I would ping "dragon spawn in 30", "baron spawn in 30". What does teammate do? Walk into enemy team while pushing and die. What enemy do? Kill our wards, pink up, 5 man objective. "but you were fed shyv go 1v5".... lmfao ok... maybe a couple a seasons ago. Now, I get cc'd for 1 second and die before I can kill their team. Yea... if I get 2-3 free seconds to dps I will kill anyone on their team besides maybe Renekton . Which with 16 kills obviously I would a lot.

It just a stupid game man played by dumb players. We were crushing, ran up mid took inhib. What does team decide to do? I ping back, I run into enemy jungle take a quick camps and either do drag solo quick (only 1 we got) or if it wasn't up (cant remember) backed after killing enemy chickens, red. Idk we pushed more than once but the first time literally 3 stayed low health while myself and one other backed after taking jungle camps. They die, enemy rushes baron....... stalls out game, cuts into our gold lead. Later on idk how they got baron 2 but I know at baron 3 I spammed pinged baron spamming. What does our Jhin do? Runs up mid... dies 1v1 to enemy Caitlyn . Like...... fucking dumb man can't even make this shit up. Even dumber? the dude either a smurf or like.... spams normal. First ranked season, has a number suggesting his multiple accounts, averages 9/10 c/s min in past games (no one does that in silver/low gold hell probs high gold). Yet.... keeps trying to front line all game even when being told to sit back a bit. Instant Dies to enemy Renekton multiple times before we can even fight.

Now lack of vision I can work on. Two games in a row I forgot to switch to sweeper. But you know what... at least I try to vision... like first game realized I need to buy more control wards. So that game you can see I bought 3 in the end. Should I have gotten more? Yea. Did I place them great? No. But fuck man... when you compare my vision score to OUR FUCKING SUPPORTS... its like wtf am I supposed to do. They didn't even buy a fucking control ward all game...... like wtf else is there to do as support besides buy some stupid ass control wards?

Yawn. I get it but at the same time Riot keeps crushing on the solo carry ways of the old days so now you have to play with the team. I am not that great of a mechanical player to 1v9 and have ranked up in past by playing around teammates and advantages. But when I have no one else to feed off of and play around winning becomes a challenge. Match making so damn random right now hard to even know who new, rusty, smurf, or all other random ass players you get. Just gets boring.

Subdue2 votes

{quoted}

I get what you are saying I really do. If this was season 6, it wouldn't even be a problem because jungle was op as fuck and solo carry was easy as hell. Except it not season 6. Also, you have to take some things into consideration.

I failed to control dragons this game. Why? two reasons.

  1. Lack of vision.
  2. Teammates being picked off and forcing 4v5 situations almost every time right before major objective spammed after 15 mins. Yes, I would ping "dragon spawn in 30", "baron spawn in 30". What does teammate do? Walk into enemy team while pushing and die. What enemy do? Kill our wards, pink up, 5 man objective. "but you were fed shyv go 1v5".... lmfao ok... maybe a couple a seasons ago. Now, I get cc'd for 1 second and die before I can kill their team. Yea... if I get 2-3 free seconds to dps I will kill anyone on their team besides maybe Renekton . Which with 16 kills obviously I would a lot.

It just a stupid game man played by dumb players. We were crushing, ran up mid took inhib. What does team decide to do? I ping back, I run into enemy jungle take a quick camps and either do drag solo quick (only 1 we got) or if it wasn't up (cant remember) backed after killing enemy chickens, red. Idk we pushed more than once but the first time literally 3 stayed low health while myself and one other backed after taking jungle camps. They die, enemy rushes baron....... stalls out game, cuts into our gold lead. Later on idk how they got baron 2 but I know at baron 3 I spammed pinged baron spamming. What does our Jhin do? Runs up mid... dies 1v1 to enemy Caitlyn . Like...... fucking dumb man can't even make this shit up. Even dumber? the dude either a smurf or like.... spams normal. First ranked season, has a number suggesting his multiple accounts, averages 9/10 c/s min in past games (no one does that in silver/low gold hell probs high gold). Yet.... keeps trying to front line all game even when being told to sit back a bit. Instant Dies to enemy Renekton multiple times before we can even fight.

Now lack of vision I can work on. Two games in a row I forgot to switch to sweeper. But you know what... at least I try to vision... like first game realized I need to buy more control wards. So that game you can see I bought 3 in the end. Should I have gotten more? Yea. Did I place them great? No. But fuck man... when you compare my vision score to OUR FUCKING SUPPORTS... its like wtf am I supposed to do. They didn't even buy a fucking control ward all game...... like wtf else is there to do as support besides buy some stupid ass control wards?

Yawn. I get it but at the same time Riot keeps crushing on the solo carry ways of the old days so now you have to play with the team. I am not that great of a mechanical player to 1v9 and have ranked up in past by playing around teammates and advantages. But when I have no one else to feed off of and play around winning becomes a challenge. Match making so damn random right now hard to even know who new, rusty, smurf, or all other random ass players you get. Just gets boring.

Having not been in the game I can't comment on what was said or pinged or whatever. I can only comment on what the match history logs show, which is what I described in my previous post.

That said, this should have never been a Baron game. This game should have been over at 20 minutes, 25 max.

Maybe you were really making calls, and your team wasn't following. Again, can't say for certain one way or the other. However, perhaps you should work on how you communicate in game. I personally can't recall a single game where I had that kind of lead and still couldn't rally my team. It just doesn't happen. You show your team early that you're the shot caller and they'll follow. The big lead goes a long way in doing that. The only caveat to that is that you can't be the whiner or the asshole. Those two can never be the shotcaller, because people don't want to follow either of them.

Edit: And as long as you blame other people instead of yourself for your losses, you'll stay stuck. If you're already perfect in your own head, then there's no incentive or room for improvement.

ValyrianBlade3 votes

I can't say what will work for you.

All I can say is what worked for me when I had the same feeling. When I was losing a lot of games where I started out doing well, and my team started feeding early and often.

You play the same way you would in a close game, and continue playing to win.

I kid you not, I used to lose 100% of games where my teammates started a combined 1/7 even if I was 2/0/0. Without fail I'd feel like if I didn't start making plays and get snowballing, I'd lose. So I took risks, lost my lead more often than not, which probably encouraged my allies to do the same, and we'd ultimately lose in a stomp.

What broke it? I'd continue playing the same. I'd stay at 0/0/0 and play careful, even if my team was losing. I'd try to keep vision up, roam to help when I can, but overall play it like a close game. The result - a lot of times those teammates that fed early were capable players in the late game that could beat their opponents and make good decisions consistently. Enemy teams would throw. We'd make comebacks, maybe 40-50% of the time (which is unreal, given I'm not including the games where we started with a lead).

There's really a bunch of different types of players in each Elo. Very few are really bad players that suck all around and deserve to be 5 divisions lower than they are. Likewise very few are amazing players that have been unusually unlucky and deserve to be 5 divisions up from where they are. Most are strong early and weak late, or weak early and strong late, or just decent all around. So when your team is losing early, odds are your allies are a bunch of better late game players, and if you deny the stomp you'll eventually pull out a win. Likewise if you're winning hard early, never let up: odds are your enemies are weaker early but can out-macro you late game and best you if given the chance.

If you're losing, don't take unnecessary risks. Play back, play careful, and you'll be surprised how often you can win those games.

If you're winning, press hard and never let up. There's nothing worse than the feeling that you could have ended the game when you were at the Nexus towers full health 5v3 with two enemies dead for 15sec (dive them!), And instead you back off to end on your next push that never comes (they win the next fight because your ADC was caught out, take Baron getting a couple more kills as your support goes for vision and jungle goes for a steal, game falls apart from there).

Dukues1 votes

Thanks I appreciate the help. I think I need to play more aggressive when having such a huge lead but enemy team started grouping up and it was hard to get a pick on 1. Didn't want to throw lead by trying to catch one out and then running into 3-4 of them. Have seen that a lot where you have a fed player who just keeps throwing themselves and enemy team thinking they can 1v5. But I think I got too far and step back when I don't need to. Think one thing I will start doing if I have another huge lead is bringing control ward and sweeper and try to pick an enemy off before major objectives especially if game starts going late.

Lots to think about guess I just need to get back to focusing on improving and finding strategies that work for me.

GypsiEater1 votes

I agree with the above said, play to play consistently, play to improve your performance and try your best to not titl (even though this is soooo hard sometimes). You will eventually get yourself where you want. Also even though you're playing ranked don't forget to have fun. A good idea in imporving might also be to analyzing which lane you can likely tilt/powerup the easiest, look at the lanes that have advantage and try and build that advantage as much as you can....say your botlane can scale really well if it has a draven or tristana with an agro support like leona or blitz. and your top lane is at a slight disadvantage while mid lane is even, you'd want to build that advantage and if succesfull you will have 3 out 5 teammates which are more fed than the other team. You can transition this into other lanes and push your overall lead for objectives.

And as always ban the op champs.........Volibear, Sion and chogath LOL ;)

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

Thanks I appreciate the help. I think I need to play more aggressive when having such a huge lead but enemy team started grouping up and it was hard to get a pick on 1. Didn't want to throw lead by trying to catch one out and then running into 3-4 of them. Have seen that a lot where you have a fed player who just keeps throwing themselves and enemy team thinking they can 1v5. But I think I got too far and step back when I don't need to. Think one thing I will start doing if I have another huge lead is bringing control ward and sweeper and try to pick an enemy off before major objectives especially if game starts going late.

Lots to think about guess I just need to get back to focusing on improving and finding strategies that work for me.

I mentioned this in my original reply, but I'll say it again. This was not a "Pick 1 off" game for you. Games where you have a massive lead at 15 minutes are not "Hide in a bush and pick one off" games. You should have told your team "I'm really fuckin fat right now. Stay on my ass I'm going in." All you had to do was push right down the lanes and take all the towers to end that game.

Dukues1 votes

{quoted}

I mentioned this in my original reply, but I'll say it again. This was not a "Pick 1 off" game for you. Games where you have a massive lead at 15 minutes are not "Hide in a bush and pick one off" games. You should have told your team "I'm really fuckin fat right now. Stay on my ass I'm going in." All you had to do was push right down the lanes and take all the towers to end that game.

Think I am just going to quit. I think the only way to actually win at my current elo is only gank and don't even attempt to actually try and play good jungle and thatn tilts me off this planet where I just phathom how dumb it is but it's where I am at. Literally another Shyvana game where invade enemy jungle and make him my bitch, get first 2 dragons solo + rift heard, csing almost 10cs/min first 20 mins (ok more like 8 but lol) while still getting in some ganks and kills. Granted not 20 kills this time. What do I get for team? feeders. I mean bot won... but after 20 mins they just gruop mid for terrible fights die over & over cry that I can't 1v5. Im just so tired of not even being able to play the game.

Most fucked up part? If I was in gold 2-3 where I am used to right now I wouldn't be raping as a jungler but I would be doing fairly well and at least winning 50% of my games. Drop me a tier lower and I can't even win 40% because teamamtes don't understand my play or just basics of the game. That is literally what the game has come to..... i honestly hate this game.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

Think I am just going to quit. I think the only way to actually win at my current elo is only gank and don't even attempt to actually try and play good jungle and thatn tilts me off this planet where I just phathom how dumb it is but it's where I am at. Literally another Shyvana game where invade enemy jungle and make him my bitch, get first 2 dragons solo + rift heard, csing almost 10cs/min first 20 mins (ok more like 8 but lol) while still getting in some ganks and kills. Granted not 20 kills this time. What do I get for team? feeders. I mean bot won... but after 20 mins they just gruop mid for terrible fights die over & over cry that I can't 1v5. Im just so tired of not even being able to play the game.

Most fucked up part? If I was in gold 2-3 where I am used to right now I wouldn't be raping as a jungler but I would be doing fairly well and at least winning 50% of my games. Drop me a tier lower and I can't even win 40% because teamamtes don't understand my play or just basics of the game. That is literally what the game has come to..... i honestly hate this game.

If you want, I'll watch this match with you. But looking at the game log, it looks like you were pretty active in the game until about 13 minutes in. During that time, your team was well ahead with a growing lead, and then you just disappear. Maybe you went farming, or something else, but you don't reappear until around 25 minutes. So really this game is more of the same. You got a lead, and rather than pushing it into a win, you got complacent, stopped looking for objectives, etc. Meanwhile Zac ramped up, and he has almost twice as many assists as your entire team has kills by the end of the game.

I don't know what else to tell you man. If you don't see that there are flaws in your gameplay, you won't improve, and you won't move up.

Dukues1 votes

This helped a lot appreciate it.

Dukues1 votes

Not really sure how to play farming jungle in mid game. After everyone started grouping up I wasn't sure what to do, as you indicated. Around 20 mins enemy team was setting up for ocean drake and we had vision around baron and I wanted to try and rush it down since we had 5 man mid, with 1 infernal and 1 mountain drake. Enemy went 4 to drag with having shen split top but had ult to join for the 5v5. Instead of going drag I spam pinged team to back not wanting to 5v5 thinking they had stronger 5v5. They had a lot of cc between Shen Ahri Zac Leona and Ahri was way ahead of our Malzahar plus our top Rengar was behind. I ran top and solo killed the Shen so he wouldn't tp in and meanwhile team got raped in the 4v4. Then I get blamed for it and told I suck for not being there. But that's where I am unsure this season. In season 6 I feel I make the right choice as I can be very impactful as a split push/farm jungle. But in season 7 I felt the only way to jungle was to play tanky cc jungle and only gank/fight. Now in this season I am unsure and its really frustrating. Feels like cc/ ganking and team fighting more important than farming and getting objectives, at least in shit elo.

So idk man it sucks because only farming jungle I been playing is Shyvana and I am more familiar with tanks/bruisers. But so sick of the "only gank and team fight" play style that was season 7. Really don't feel like playing jungle if the only thing still important is ganking as much as possible and forcing team fights.

Subdue1 votes

{quoted}

Not really sure how to play farming jungle in mid game. After everyone started grouping up I wasn't sure what to do, as you indicated. Around 20 mins enemy team was setting up for ocean drake and we had vision around baron and I wanted to try and rush it down since we had 5 man mid, with 1 infernal and 1 mountain drake. Enemy went 4 to drag with having shen split top but had ult to join for the 5v5. Instead of going drag I spam pinged team to back not wanting to 5v5 thinking they had stronger 5v5. They had a lot of cc between Shen Ahri Zac Leona and Ahri was way ahead of our Malzahar plus our top Rengar was behind. I ran top and solo killed the Shen so he wouldn't tp in and meanwhile team got raped in the 4v4. Then I get blamed for it and told I suck for not being there. But that's where I am unsure this season. In season 6 I feel I make the right choice as I can be very impactful as a split push/farm jungle. But in season 7 I felt the only way to jungle was to play tanky cc jungle and only gank/fight. Now in this season I am unsure and its really frustrating. Feels like cc/ ganking and team fighting more important than farming and getting objectives, at least in shit elo.

So idk man it sucks because only farming jungle I been playing is Shyvana and I am more familiar with tanks/bruisers. But so sick of the "only gank and team fight" play style that was season 7. Really don't feel like playing jungle if the only thing still important is ganking as much as possible and forcing team fights.

It's hard to decipher some of that without actually seeing it happen. But part of it is in the math. Let's say that you and your ADC are doing well, but Mid and top are struggling:

Your Team Mid: 2500G (In items) Top: 2500G ADC: 3500G Support: 2500G Jungle: 4000G

Enemy Team: Mid: 3000G Top: 3000G ADC: 3000G Support: 2500G Jungle: 3000G

In this scenario, if you head top to fight their top while your team goes 4v4 for Dragon, then in terms of gold you are 1000G ahead in your matchup, so you're expected to win. However, your team is 500G behind in their matchup, and so are expected to lose.

This is very basic obviously, some champions are stronger at certain parts of the game even with less gold, and of course player skill factors into the matchup too, but the gist of it is that if your team wants to fight and you're holding a large chunk of your team's gold because you're the one that's ahead, you generally want to be with them, especially in games where you feel you can't trust your team to make the "oh shit gotta back off" call in time.

Always remember - you control exactly 1 of 5 champions on your team. Your teammates are going to make their own decisions, sometimes decisions you disagree with. There's nothing you can do about that. But what you can do is adjust your own play to capitalize on what the rest of the team is trying to do.

Dukues1 votes

Yea only way we win that game is if I 24/7 gank top/mid. I remember now and literally just brain dead players especially Malzahar . Gets crushed by the most average low elo Ahri who throws every skill shot in a straight line and just fucking so average. Should have seen this dude face tank fights. Fuck that malz Im happy he lost hope he keeps losing. I could have camped rengar and got some kills since bot was doing well. But at the end of the day feel like that shouldn't have to be my job... I mean I get it is but... dude picks champ to play top yet can't plat champ or split top yet doesn't roam for kills.

Fuck it back to just being a brain dead asshole like the rest of my teammates only ganking and pushing lanes. No reason to even try to do higher level shit because no need to. Kids will literally feed their asses off unless you hold their hand. Guess once I get to a higher elo then I can start actually trying to play and learn jungle. But right now it better to just be a brain dead ganker front line cc tank because you won't have a team anyways. If my team could go even in lanes every game I would win at least 60% of jungle games easily but you can't tell people that and it too low elo for people to understand that. I get even high elo people feed but there generally at least a higher understanding of you don't have to win lane every game to have an impact at higher levels. But current elo that doesn't really apply.

IainG101 votes

Whilst this is very much the way to do it, it just doesn't help us poor support mains, because even when we scale, we do very little except annoy the enemy more...

Drugoth3 votes

The meta shifted drastically with the rune update. A lot of us are still reeling from it. I feel your pain.

GypsiEater2 votes

I Feel what you are going through. Most games are hindered currently by the adjustment of the new system and players not fully understanding what and when to do stuff. The other point is, and I feel you on this one, that you constantly get paired with a bunch of dummies who can't capitalise on obvious opportunities. Example baron is open you just killed two enemies and your bot lane decides to brainlessly farm bot wave which is about mid way between yours and their tower. You ping them endlessly but to no avail - what to do? Nothing that's solo que and the "fair" matchmaking that you get into. Sure the winrates for players are supposed to be around 50% but I think given that this is still pre season with huge updates it will not be the case until fairly late in the season. I have yet to play a game which I thought was a real nailbiter - most end up getting out of control around the 20-25 min mark, but that's just me.

Dukues1 votes

Same thing happened last season, but I thought it made more sense then since ranks seem to change more than this season. Like last season I dropped from gold 3 to bronze 1 and knew others who dropped from all different places. But this season... even doing poor in placements got placed silver 2 from gold 3. And most people I been playing with are same or close to same rank as last season but the play.... the play is nothing like what I saw in preseason. Its so random and just don't know what to think anymore.

Guess I am still figuring out a plan for this season. Season 6 I really got into jungling and it was when junglers could hard carry. It was literally a season where best jungler wins was true in most games. It was fun until I started playing better junglers than me then I knew I was a huge part of why we were losing. But then in season 7 with cathup xp it all changed. Farming as a jungler especially in low elo just seemed useless. I struggled trying to combine farming with ganking and losing to brainless junglers who ganked nonstop but because of catch up xp would be same level anyways. So eventually I adopted that play style of basically only ganking and farming only on occasion and omg did it work amazingly. Felt dumb as hell but worked super well in silver so said fuck it.

Now this season idk.... I feel like farming is important again so been trying to keep it up. But once you get to late game just feels best team comp/cc wins, or team who has least morons dying before game ending team fights.

Can't wait until games get back to feeling matched evenly. I know it never truly even but.... feels like towards mid/end of season more than half my games are at least fairly matched making them more fun, competitive, and easier to climb in my opinion.

Quil Evrything1 votes

"Most losses come from uncontrollable feeding "

^^^ this

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