This are both champions "all or nothing". Win lane or lost lane. High risk and high reward. However Riven can farm and comeback, because she's late game goddess. Can we change something?
Btw Riven must get proper role - like Diana she has fighter's tankiness and assassin's damage, and this mix doesn't look like good one.
67chrome7 votesCan we change something?
Honestly I wish more fighters operated similarly to Riven.
The main shtick of a fighter is they're the best archetype in a 1v1. They want to duel, they want to be on an island vs. another opponent, they want to split-push to force a 1v1 and circumvent they're often lacking team-fight potential.
A lot of them just run into this weird pattern where minions and towers make them worse in-lane than a ranged champion, they're item dependent, and by the time they can effectively 1v1 everyone else wants to 5v5, which makes a lot of fighters kind of an awkward pick. Why run with them rather than another mage top that actually has decent 1v1 presence when you're stuck in a 1v1 and transitions really well into solid 5v5 presence late?
Btw Riven must get proper role - like Diana she has fighter's tankiness and assassin's damage, and this mix doesn't look like good one.
There's nothing unique about a fighter+assassin mix, especially when you consider the strengths of each roll. Fighters and Assassins are cousin rolls with several similarities as-is and the fighter/assassin mix is more a teal between blue and green arbitray spots Riot decided to labbel classes on rather than some broken combo of opposite play styles.
, and being more of a 
I'm gonna jump on you and smack you a bunch of times.As for fighter's tankyness and assassin's damage: all 4 damage rolls in fighter, assassin, marksman, and mage tend to deal the same post-game damage to other champions as one-another, so saying "assassin damage" with fighter tankyness is kind of silly, because assassin damage is effectively the same thing as assassin damage in most cases.
The main thing that differentiates the 4 damage rolls is rather the mechanic they utilize to survive long enough to do their job, and those mechanics are mostly these 3: Defense, Mobility, Range.
Riven has just enough defense to be called a fighter rather than an assassin and she's really mobile, but her defense isn't exactly middle-of-the-road fighter tankyness. fighter/tanks are like 
where they can build full-tank and still kill things. Fighter/assassins are usually like 
where they have a 100% damage-block skill and frequently 100% CC block in there as well. Want to lock down a with Tibbers? GG hit his clone.
Riven leans much more heavily to assassin squish with her HP shield rather than fighter tankyness.
Anyways: Riven isn't having an identity crises because she's a fighter/assassin.
dEAdbUs1 votesFighters and assassins are not cousins. Assassins have burst, while fighters are not. Champions in late game are not dealing same damage. Compare Talon's damage and Jax's damage in 1 sec. Full build ofc. Then compare Talon's damage and Riven's damage in 1 sec. Then compare Talon's effective HP and Riven's effective HP with full build. Keep in mind, that Riven has tons of CC and shield, while Talon doesn't. Nuff said.
67chrome7 votesFighters and assassins are not cousins.
Yes they are.
At least in LoL. You don't really have any Skyrim/D&D/Metal-Gear-Solid assassins that lurk in the shadows, sneak around, then OHKO someone in the back of the head with a bow.
You mostly have...Ninja Gaiden assassins that run around throwing shurikens at one-another in broad daylight.
Assassins have burst, while fighters are not.
How is 
bursty?
How is
not? ? 
? ?
If you compare 
to 
I'm also not exactly seeing a meangingful difference in burst.
Only real difference is one class runs straight at you with no bothers to give, while the other tends to wait for your back to be turned.
Champions in late game are not dealing same damage.
LoL isn't an RPG about grinding to late game. Early and Mid game are huge phases that set the tone for the rest of the game, and you can win in under 20 minutes, and in several cases gain enough of a lead early to decide a game.
There are some late game champions. There are some mid game champions. Tunneling on any particular phase is not a wise idea for balance though, looking at post-game averages is by far the best way to gauge champion damage, because it factors in all phases as well as the difficulty in landing skillshots or pulling off combos.
I mean, cool beans is a nightmare to deal with with 6 major items, but the average game only sees ~11k gold per player and lasts ~33 minutes.
Compare Talon's damage and Jax's damage in 1 sec. Full build ofc.
Jax times Counterstrike, Leap Strike, Empowered Strike, and Grandmaster's Might to all land in essentially the same frame. And Tri-Force, Hydra, and/or Kingblade for what it's worth.
You can't really get any burstier than Jax in 1 second. Fizz comes close save for his ultimate, otherwise Jax is the champion that unloads his full kit's power in the least amount of time.
Talon needs more than 2.5 seconds to get his full damage off due to how his ult works, and his casting animations (particularly the one on Rake) prevent him from unloading everything in an instant.
in mid game as well, because tons of damage. Also Jax's full combo is on an 8 second CD max rank, which is kind of stupid.Then compare Talon's damage and Riven's damage in 1 sec. Then compare Talon's effective HP and Riven's effective HP with full build. Keep in mind, that Riven has tons of CC and shield, while Talon doesn't. Nuff said.
There are a ton of factors involved in such a comparison that make a numbers-war not the only consideration.
First, Riven's max-damage combo assumes a 1% HP opponent for her ultimate, which is...unrealistic. Secondly - Riven's rank 1 Wings do less damage then her auto-attacks. Rank 5 wings do less damage then her auto-attacks with a total of 226 AD. And auto-attacks can crit, wings cannot. At a certain point - 3 excellently animation-canceled wings are going to do less damage than an IE crit.
Also - with EHP? Invisibility renders you untargetabile to all point-click attacks and abilities. In the case of Riven vs. Tryndamere, Riven's HP shield can block, like, 1/2 of an auto-attack's damage once every 3.6 seconds assuming max CDR. Talon becomes flat out invulnerable to Tryndamere's AA damage for 2.5 seconds.
Not to mention QoL. Talon will land 100% of his damage close to 100% of the time. A 700 range gap-closer just allows for a lot of oppertunities to jump on someone when they can't really respond, and you're not going to miss Rake+Assault unless you derp out hardcore.
Riven will essentially always miss out on damage due to not ulting someone at 1% max HP, all of her moves being really low AOE and short ranged, and the high likleyhood many situations will arise where moving the equivalent of 575 MS at someone will force Riven to burn a Wings and sacrifice it's damage to reach someone.
Apply those factors in-game, and the main difference between a hard-in-the-pain assassin like Talon vs. a fighter/assassin like Riven is mostly Talon doesn't want to ever get hit and has the tools to never get hit, Riven can take a bit of a hit, her play-style forces her to take a bit of a hit.
dEAdbUs1 votesCompare Talon's damage and Jax's damage in 1 sec. Full build ofc. Then compare Talon's damage and Riven's damage in 1 sec. Then compare Talon's effective HP and Riven's effective HP with full build. Keep in mind, that Riven has tons of CC and shield, while Talon doesn't.
The Sword Saint6 votesYou're an ass. He put a lot of effort into - corectly and logically- breaking it down for you.
And you reply with a lazy and sarcastic copy-paste of your earlier post instead of responding to literally anything he brought up?
Clearly noone should bother discussing game mechanics or balance with you anymore, you're a lost cause.
dEAdbUs1 votesHis words is just words until he checks numbers. He can write wall of text, but it means nothing witout proofs.
JustMyBassCannon5 votesYou don't order fine wine and then spill it on the waiter intentionally.
Likewise, you don't ask for proof and not read the damn post.
dEAdbUs1 votesI ve read post, but I'm not agree with many points. I can write answer of same "wall of text"s size, but do we really need it? I don't want to talk about every champion in LoL, because its not my point - I was talking about Riven and Irelia. To prove my point - I asked player check numbers on practice, but all get - rage from people who want me to start this offtopic talking.
JustMyBassCannon2 votesYeah, you're supposed to actually respond. That is how a debate or argument works.
And it's not going off-subject to widen the scope of examination. You can't just examine Riven and Irelia in a vacuum.
JustMyBassCannon1 votesFirst, Riven's max-damage combo assumes a 1% HP opponent for her ultimate, which is...unrealistic.
Minor correction, Riven's ultimate reaches full damage when the target is at 25% HP.
ScreamPaste3 votesYou and me both. Riven is one of the best designed champions in the game if you look at her without letting the boards tell you what to think.
dEAdbUs2 votesOk, why do you think so? What makes her design so nice?
insaiyanbacca4 votesive never seen a riven that was able to farm up and make a comeback simply because she would get put down so hard if she lost lane