Can we finally nerf Lee Sin and Thresh

dEAdbUs·Nov 11, 2015·48 votes·2,364 views

I see Lee Sin and Thresh in every game, in normals they're in both teams! 3 years of domination, this is too much. Make them situative and not super universal.

**UPD: ** NA Diamond highest pickrates (Jinx, Thresh, Lee) http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=na&type=champion-popularity&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond

World highest ranked pickrates (Jinx, Thresh, Lee) http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-popularity&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=ranked

And another site to compare (Plat+ highest pickrates) Thresh, Jinx, Lee http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

47 Comments

SpeedphoenixNov 11, 20155 votes

thresh just got nerfed thanks to the last whisper working on BONUS armor and not base (thresh's passive gives bonus armor not base)

xNoblessexNov 12, 20151 votes

How's that a nerf, that just means LW will work on him like it worked before

Bears Dont CareNov 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

thresh just got nerfed thanks to the last whisper working on BONUS armor and not base (thresh's passive gives bonus armor not base)

No...it was a tiny buff...

dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

It won't change anything. If most part of Thresh armor is bonus armor, then there is not much difference for him what ADC will buy against him: old Last Whisper (35% total armor pene) or new Reminder and Regrets (40% bonus armor pene).

Ofc comparing to other tanks he'll be less tankier, but for him alone it won't really affect anything.

DrProfVibeCheckNov 11, 20153 votes

High play rate doesn't always mean they are OP. Just means they are fun

BUT!!!

I agree Lee Sin needs some nerfs. His kit is full of damage, sustain, survivability, mobility, and crowd control. Lee may need some number nerfs.

Thresh, on the other hand, is harder to fix. He is all about utility, and you can't really take him out of the Meta unless you change his kit.

dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

Ok, lets talk about fun or not fun. Here is an example: before Ryze nerfs and rework, Riven was very rare pick for toplane. After Ryze nerfs and rework I see Riven very often. Question: if pickrate depends on fun, then how Ryze rework made Riven more fun? ** Answer**: it's not about fun, Ryze was main and hardest counter to Riven.

Archon XNov 11, 20152 votes

Thresh is trash

OperationDEEZ1Nov 11, 20159 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLKhxjfG03A

Archon XNov 11, 20152 votes

he's good at Silver, maybe, I'm not sure.

but in Diamond where you can avoid his hook, and his flay, and his empowered aa, and his ult, and you know to expect the shield, he has nothing.

so there's that.

dEAdbUsNov 11, 20158 votes

My bro is D1. Thresh everywhere.

A Miss FortuneNov 11, 201516 votes

Yeah, I guess I mean Gangplank is useless if you can avoid his ult, predict his barrels, dodge his autos, and pink his Parrley he's pretty useless too.

Chaotic ReksNov 11, 20152 votes

pink his Parrley

A Miss FortuneNov 11, 20151 votes

I pink Morgana snares too. No lie look at how many pink wards I buy when I play vs her.

XonraNov 11, 20152 votes

God you are still spouting this garbage? And here I was defending you not being a troll days ago. No one can be this clueless on accident.

I'll just downvote and move on when I see you post now I guess lol Looks like you are just copying and pasting your own troll responses now.

OperationDEEZ1Nov 11, 20151 votes

Except he can still give every single member of his team a get out of jail free card. Not exactly useless.

LankPantsNov 11, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Archon X,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=d98nwoAe,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-11-11T16:10:13.030+0000)

he's good at Silver, maybe, I'm not sure.

but in Diamond where you can avoid his hook, and his flay, and his empowered aa, and his ult, and you know to expect the shield, he has nothing.

so there's that.

I'm sure that's why he was a common pick at worlds, he must just be trash in high level play.

dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

Check his pickrates in Plat+ http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

And check your NA diamond pickrates (top 3: Jinx, Lee, Thresh) http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=na&type=champion-popularity&range=weekly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond

ModAcademy KaynNov 11, 20152 votes

Can't we make Thresh's Q stun/duration hook stays on you scale by level? So you're not stunned for 2 seconds at level 1?

DealthNov 11, 20152 votes

As someone who has 1k games as lee sin let me tell you this: He is good early and mid game IF you feed him. When it comes to team fights, he's pretty much useless. He can escape from skirmishes easily but if he is front-lining a fight he will just get melted.

He has been nerfed a lot too. He used to have a 60% AS slow, a shield when dashign to minions/wards (and a reduced cooldown), as well as bonus armor from his W.

dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

As someone who has 1k games as lee sin let me tell you this: He is good early and mid game IF you feed him.

It's hard not to feed him - that's the problem. Example: toplane vs Renekton is problem, but with Lee in Renekton's team lane becomes suicide. On 6 they can dive anyone non-stop.

When it comes to team fights, he's pretty much useless. He can escape from skirmishes easily but if he is front-lining a fight he will just get melted.

Flash + InSec, and then jump back to ward or to teammate.

He has been nerfed a lot too. He used to have a 60% AS slow, a shield when dashign to minions/wards (and a reduced cooldown), as well as bonus armor from his W.

And after nerfs we see him in every 3rd ranked game (http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Jungle&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend), in every Worlds!

As player who is playing LoL since S2, I can tell you that I'm really tired to see Lee so often.

DealthNov 13, 20152 votes

The insec during team fights makes sense on paper but in reality the enemy team will melt you before you can even get behind the adc. And his 200 shield will not protect him. He has good early and mid game but not good carry potential. He's definitley strong (although not so much in this patch) but he definitly does not need a nerf.

dEAdbUsNov 13, 20151 votes

I can say this about 75% of champions - they can't reach enemy adc. It's not Lee Sin problem - it's a common game situation.

Any other weak spots? His damage and tankiness and mobility are decent even in late game.

DealthNov 13, 20151 votes

His team fighting is awful compared to other fighters including his tankiness. He will never be able to insec in a team fight without getting melted. None of his stats scale off of building tank. Let's compare him to some other junglers:

J4 has a potential 510 shield, with same aoe slow but much better lock with his ult
Shyvana has 40 armor and magic resist, with huge aoe damage on every ability
Udyr has much more reliable cc and can do lots of single target or aoe damage without skill shots.
Vi's shield scales off max health so building tank is more efficent plus she has a much better ult for team fights.
Warwick can just leap across the screen and suppress whoever he wants so his team can lock them down
Maokai has aoe damage on every ability except his w, which is a much more reliable hard cc like warwick.

See the trend here? Lee Sin has nothing in team fights. He is strong early game because of his pick potential and strong burst damage through the use of his skill shot. In team fights, he has a knock back and that is it. The same as Tristana except she can output more damage at a safer range. And don't say he has an aoe slow because the damage is negligible and the slow doesn't really matter (everyone is being cc'd by something or other)

dEAdbUsNov 13, 20151 votes

I understand your point.

Now I'll ask you, do your words mean that between WW and Lee you'll pick WW for jungle? Because WW can ult carries.

DealthNov 14, 20151 votes

Don't get me wrong, Lee Sin is definitely a very strong champion. Before level 6, Lee's ganks are always better than Warwick's. Post 6 it depends on your team comp and how much cc your team has. If they have a lot of cc, then they can set up ganks for Lee to do his burst combo. If your team is damage based and lacks cc, then warwick is better so they can do the damage while you suppress them.

Late game, Warwick is usually always the better pick. His win rate at minute 40+ is 55% while Lee's is 46%. According to champion.gg

Eevee In A JarNov 11, 20151 votes

You will see Thresh everywhere in Plat, Diamond. But the thing is Thresh landing his hook in this rank is pretty rare. I'm not saying it will happen like 3 times a game. I'm saying the average Thresh is likely to miss probably about 2 thirds of his hooks throughout the game. Now if the Thresh is smart by now, you can lead with Flay which makes it miles easier to land your hook. But again his kit is extremely easy to predict. Oh, he threw a lantern over there? Must be a jungler or gank. Back off. The only real threat you gotta worry about is Thresh lantern ganking with someone like Vi or Lee Sin.

But again in high ELO when you see Thresh on the enemy team, I don't get worried or people don't choose Sivir/Morg just because Thresh is there. No need to counter him at all.

dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

Opened high elo ranked games in my client (bottom right corner), don't see Morg or Sivir vs Thresh. Btw my brother is Diamond and he's saying that Threshes and Blitzes are curse of high elo.

Look here, both Thresh and Bliz pickrates are 37 + 17 = 54% - that more than half games! Every third game is with Thresh, and every second game with Thresh or Bliz! http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

Eevee In A JarNov 12, 20151 votes

Yeah I agree. You never see Sivir or Morg (rarely but usually circumstantial of their team comp). Thresh just isn't as strong a pick as people think it is in high ELO. Don't get me wrong. His kit sounds amazing. But players you face are good enough to counter play against Thresh and if Thresh can't land his hooks consistently to engage and lock down priority targets, he's just not that useful and is a meat shield. Now with a jungler like Vi, his W just becomes rigged or to give good escape. Some say that alone is enough to pick Thresh but I still beg to differ

dEAdbUsNov 13, 20151 votes

So you want to say that diamonds are just dumb and take Bliz or Thresh just because it's their common picks? Trust me diamond hooks are hard to dodge. My brother is diamond and he's agreed with me that hooks are too powerful.

Baddest HookerNov 11, 20151 votes

WUT?!? people still complaining about Thresh I prefer to play against thresh than a TahmKench (Rito plz nerf)

I've been playing a few games of LeeSin Gragas and they provide almost the same peel but at least they have a gap closer or an escape, something that Thresh doesn't. Believe it or not right now they are a few supports equal or better than Thresh its only a matter of personal preference which one people play.

This guy -> LeeSin is so good that he makes a good support :P

*Edit: Thresh has bonus armor instead of armor per lvl.(Nerf) + If a Zed Talon Yasuo MasterYi jumps on your adc, a slow won't save them.

StoryDuckNov 11, 20151 votes

Won't ever happen. Every Thresh/Lee Sin needs changes/nerf/(buffs too) get's immediately flamed, downvoted, and trolled into oblivion. Were you around when they tried to rework Lee Sin? The nerd rage of a million LOL players freaked out on Riot forcing them to revert most of the changes. Hell, I had a thread asking why thresh has a passive that needs a second passive to balance it and I got downvoted. When questions about why a champion has something is interpreted as a need to downvote there isn't really much hope. If any meaningful changes happen to Lee Sin or Thresh I might start to worry about Armageddon.

ChaosThiefNov 11, 20151 votes

For example: riot's attempt at retuning lee sin to be more of a late game champion:

http://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/jHhmhlGe-lets-talk-about-lee-sin-retune

dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

here stats about pickrates in Plat+ soloQ for jungle, Lee is first http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Jungle&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

TwoDNov 11, 20151 votes

idc about thresh, gut lee sin and monkey lee sin players

okinoNov 12, 20151 votes

so long as you know how both champs work, it should be a bit easier to maneuver around them. i only see them once every 2-5 games.

dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

I'm watching my match history. Last game: Lee Sin in enemy team Game before: Bliz in enemy team Game before: Bliz in both teams Game before: Bliz in enemy team Game before: clear Game before: Lee in enemy team, Thresh in both teams Game before: Lee in enemy team
Game before: Lee in enemy team
Game before: Lee in enemy team
Game before: Bliz in my team

Checked pickrates, Lee #1 with 30%, Thresh #1 with 37% in Plat+

AbstracT TheoryNov 12, 20151 votes

lee sin is garbage late game so all you need to do is ward up and dont get ganked. You have 2 wards now passively with the trinket. Use them.

dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

I see Lee literally every second game.

Lintu PuckNov 12, 20151 votes

that is your luck, and not mine :P

KensueNov 12, 20151 votes

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dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

I don't know how to nerf em, it's not my job to think how to nerf him.

Lee #1 popular pick in Plat+ soloQ for jungle with 30% pickrate (next one - Elise has just 13% pickrate) http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Jungle&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

Lee #1 popular pick in Plat+ soloQ as supp with 37% pickrate (next one - Bliz has just 17% pickrate) http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=Support&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

KensueNov 12, 20151 votes

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dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

I know, it comes from Q and R.

KensueNov 12, 20151 votes

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dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

Perfectly balanced champion has 37% pickrate - this is most popukar champion now in high elo: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?roleSort=&sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend

Skillshots so what? Almost every skill now in this game - skillshot.

dEAdbUsNov 12, 20151 votes

As a programmer I show you example from my life.

User after using my soft tells me that my program is working slow. He won't tell me what code I should fix, or where math and interaction with database is wrong so it slows everything. It's my job to find WHY program is slow.