Enemy team has three Maws and a Steraks. I literally cannot do anything as the AP carry.

Yenn·Feb 15, 2016·82 votes·5,012 views

Can we fix this yet? This is fucking stupid.

119 Comments

DrCyanideFeb 15, 201658 votes

Don't you know? item 3157 is sooooo much better than all the AD itemization! It lets you completely stop attacking in exchange for not taking damage! That's way better than some self-activating shield + attack speed + spell vamp + lifesteal! Who wants to do more damage and live anyway?

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 16, 20165 votes

Good thing AP mages rely on spells on a cool down and not auto attacks to do damage other wise the stasis might actually be hurtful. Its also a crying shame that after having this item for years, its suddenly now unfair that AD champs get something for themselves. I mean how dare they get defensive items, don't they know AP champions are the only ones who get to get offensive/defensive items.

Cosmic WarperFeb 16, 201621 votes

{quoted}

Good thing AP mages rely on spells on a cool down and not auto attacks to do damage other wise the stasis might actually be hurtful. Its also a crying shame that after having this item for years, its suddenly now unfair that AD champs get something for themselves. I mean how dare they get defensive items, don't they know AP champions are the only ones who get to get offensive/defensive items.

You still fail to see the point. Zhonyas got nerfed, yet it doesn't allow you to attack or cast. You're just unable to die. That gives the enemy the chance to collapse upon you, run away, etc. Sterak's and Maw provide IN-COMBAT tankiness that always activates when off cooldown and gives the user a large advantage in trades or teamfights, and they provide more raw stats than zhonya's for lower cost/ better gold efficiency. Their cooldowns are also shorter than zhonya active.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 16, 20162 votes

And you fail to see that Zhonya's cost 3200 gold and gave 120 ap for two plus years. Sterak's is brand new, and Maw was just reworked this season to not be complete shit. 5 years AP had a plethora of defensive items, AD had shitty old Maw and Scimitar which is one of the most expensive items in the entire game.

Less than 6 months AD gets real defensive items comparable to AP and already mage mains cant take it. Imagine how AD must feel having to go 5 years at a disadvantage.

HighH1Feb 16, 201618 votes

mmm yeah I can't imagine how AD's could deal with a stationary target that can't cast spells,move,or do anything really it's not like you could just crowd around them. It's not like they had to click it themselves. Man those bonuses they got as soon as they came out was OP af. OH and the mini zhonya's they get before getting the big item.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 16, 20162 votes

You know most people who build Zhoyna's have 1000 plus range right? IDK why you are pretending that mages are melee, or that people could just "crowd around them."

And I'm sorry your crying over some items that have been around for less than half a year, but really after having the better itemization for 5 years, get over yourself and stop crying.

HighH1Feb 16, 20169 votes

Great now that they can't move or cast spells their 1000 plus range doesn't matter anymore. Literally run up to them or dash/blink to them like most ADCs or assassins do and murderize them

WhatAGeiniusFeb 16, 20161 votes

I forgot that mages exist in a weird vacuum where their teammates don't exist and the enemy's do.

If you seriously think that Zhonya's active isn't one of the most godlike item actives in the entire game, you must have never seen it used in your life.

RikoZerameFeb 16, 2016

To be fair, if you're using Zhonya's active, you either already have a severe advantage ( Kennen Morgana Fiddlesticks ), or you are in that weird vacuum to some extent.

WhatAGeiniusFeb 16, 20161 votes

Not really, using Zhonya's allows your team to move in to position themselves to protect you after you make a risky play, or when someone on the enemy team tries to dive onto you, it lets you stall out the clock on your cooldowns, or avoid being hit by a key ability from an enemy.

Voluug13Feb 16, 20162 votes

Unless you are Karthus, Zhonia's wont do anything to you cooldown-wise. Its 1-2 seconds of statis, not 30 seconds.

Most mages have cast times and animations delays. You wont be coming alive if you are low and someone catches up to you while using Zhonia's.

KnoyleFeb 16, 201610 votes

In a trade Zhonya's isn't going to help you, if not kill you. If your team is still in their lane and not even on the way then how is the stasis even an advantage?

WhatAGeiniusFeb 16, 20162 votes

Because in case you've forgotten, your abilites (and your enemy's abilities) have a cooldown. Cooldowns on abilities that you used before going into stasis are still ticking down, and any of your opponents abilities you dodged by going into stasis still go on cooldown.

Not to mention, not the entire game is the laning phase.

KnoyleFeb 16, 201610 votes

Explain to me how this is better than item 3155 that procs a shield. Stasis gives your opponent time to run, set up another attack, whatever. You can't do anything about it. Zhonya's requires a situation that actually makes it useful. The other item is literally an ap shield that allows you to keep fighting or running. Seriously, HOW is Zhonya's better with a more situational effect, higher CD, higher cost, and less stats? I mean RIGHT NOW in this CURRENT patch how does it match up? How many situations is Zhonya's not just a delay of death in comparison to Maw? Seriously, explain that to me because that cooldown thing sounds more like a double edged sword because your opponent is getting a chance to come off cooldown too.

AHeroNamedHawkeFeb 16, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Explain to me how this is better than that procs a shield. Stasis gives your opponent time to run, set up another attack, whatever. You can't do anything about it. Zhonya's requires a situation that actually makes it useful. The other item is literally an ap shield that allows you to keep fighting or running. Seriously, HOW is Zhonya's better with a more situational effect, higher CD, higher cost, and less stats? I mean RIGHT NOW in this CURRENT patch how does it match up? How many situations is Zhonya's not just a delay of death in comparison to Maw? Seriously, explain that to me because that cooldown thing sounds more like a double edged sword because your opponent is getting a chance to come off cooldown too.

For two reasons

One, Maw does nothing against physical damage, so against anyone else the holder has the same effective HP as having no items, and can't even proc the passive

Two, Zhonya's can force over commitment and potentially avoid an infinite amount of damage of both types. If Syndra ults a Maw and an Hourglass for 1500 damage, the Hourglass will take none and the Maw will absorb 350 of it. While you can CC an Hourglass holder and kill them before they can use it, the mitigation can't be brute forced through like Maw

These complaints also don't make much sense efficiency wise, item 3191 is 130% gold efficient if you farm for 2.5 minutes, and matches item 3155 at 12 stacks. Hexdrinker is only more efficient during its 90 second cooldown passive, and costs 100 more gold

Same story with item 3157 and item 3156 . Maw is 12% more efficient than Hourglass, then spikes during its active. The problem being that you can't put a price tag on Hourglass, because it can either singlehandedly win a teamfight or be absolutely useless. If Maw was really that impossible to play against as AP, Zed and Talon would've surpassed Ahri and Lux in popularity already, but only Zed has even come close

Voluug13Feb 16, 20162 votes

To be fair Talon's problems arent lessened by Hexdrinker, and he is a harder champion to lane with, and arguably, to teamifight with properly.

WhatAGeiniusFeb 16, 20161 votes

I seriously do not know what to say to you. Like, it should be blatantly obvious to anyone that has played league of legends for more than a week why Zhonya's active is good. The amount of playmaking potential you get from it is absurd.

If you seriously can't understand why having the ability to go untargetable for 2.5 seconds is strong in League of Legends, I honestly don't know what to tell you.

KnoyleFeb 16, 20163 votes

I'm not saying Zhonya's is a bad Item. I'm saying Items like Maw and Scimitar over power it in more situations. I know the potential of going untargetable, but it can also come with drawbacks and is sensitive to the situation because you are immobile and unable to take action. Otherwise the active was wasted and the only thing you accomplished is to basically add a few seconds to your death timer.

Eevee In A JarFeb 16, 20161 votes

This guy has a point in that AP champs had plethora of item choices in the past and item focuses were around them too. I mean think about the type of items we had going on for mid laners from season 1+. AD's are finally getting some items. As someone who played bot lane for a while, it's nice dominating lane and not getting rekt by a 1/0 mid laner who's 2 levels below us.

Items like STerak's is brand new therefore you can't exactly expect them to be 100% balanced. Obv they're trying to tweak some things around but I have the mentality that Riot doesn't know what they are doing atm. They're just experimenting around.

YennFeb 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

This guy has a point in that AP champs had plethora of item choices in the past and item focuses were around them too. I mean think about the type of items we had going on for mid laners from season 1+. AD's are finally getting some items. As someone who played bot lane for a while, it's nice dominating lane and not getting rekt by a 1/0 mid laner who's 2 levels below us.

Items like STerak's is brand new therefore you can't exactly expect them to be 100% balanced. Obv they're trying to tweak some things around but I have the mentality that Riot doesn't know what they are doing atm. They're just experimenting around.

'Just experimenting around' during the ranked season isn't acceptable.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 17, 20162 votes

Yes they should balance the entire game for an entire season in two months. Literally shouldn't change from January till November when the season ends.

Agent ApeFeb 16, 20169 votes

item 3155 and item 3140 cost 2600 total. item 3157 costs 3500. Those two items are enough to counter AP champs.

YCitizenSnipsYFeb 16, 20164 votes

Well item 3157 was 3200 gold for years, and item 3156 was complete shit until this preseason. Noticed how no one built it until now. item 3140 was only worth it for ad when built into item 3139 which was about 500 more gold than hourglass originally and still cost more now.

Pls tell me more on how bad AP have it, you also left out the countless other defensive items AP have had for years.

AP mains are just greedy. For fucking 5 seasons now people have been asking for AD variety, Riot finally does it and the mage mains cry like they have had it so bad. Stay classy boards.

And before you result to your low elo nonsense

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.overallPosition&order=ascend&roleSort=Middle

Look at all those mages just struggling to get by, IDK bout you but they all look unviable and completely weak to me.

101100111000Feb 16, 20164 votes

What defensive items do AP champions actually have outside of Zhonya's Hourglass? Lemme go through the icon list real quick (I'll even include iffy ones):

item 3001 item 3003 item 3060 item 3170 owait this isn't on sr item 3027 item 3116

Of which, only Zhonya's, Abyssal, and Banner (which no real AP caster would even try to touch) provide any real resistances, the rest are just health or a mana shield.

Now let's look at AD defensive itemization, including the iffy stuff:

item 3022 item 3025 item 3156 item 3139 item 3053 item 3071

I mean, sure, you can argue that most ADCs won't touch any combination of these items.

But consider the fact that, if an ADC is against a heavy magic damage comp, they have 2 immediate defensive options for stacking resistances, while being giving more health-stacking options that simultaneous provide any mixture of cooldown reduction, mobility, and damage. This is opposed to AP champions, who in the way of resistances, can only reasonably build Abyssal if they want to still be able to deal more damage.

While AP champions only have one armor item that effectively functions as a generic anti-burst button, AD champions can easily build 2 of their anti-burst options and still comfortably deal damage (albeit not as quickly as they would before, but I digress).

This also further excludes the fact that, against a solid physical damage composition, a squishy champion can also simply build a dedicated armor tank item (I'm looking at item 3143 item 3068 ).

AD champions, especially ADCs, have never had much build variety until maybe now, but neither did many AP champions. Back then, most AP champions built the same 4 or so items ( item 3089 item 3135 item 3157 item 3151 and/or item 3165 ) and, unless you were a special snowflake that needed mana ( item 3003 item 3027 ), you would build a defensive item ( item 3102 ), sit on Sorc shoes, and that was that.

The fact that, in terms of damage, AP champions (specifically mages) finally have access to item 3135 item 3089 item 3157 item 3116 item 3285 item 3151 item 3165 to pick and choose damage and abilities from reliably is fun and all, but defensively, AD champions have access to the defensive "Juggernaut" items. Over here, AP champions get and item 3001 viably (seriously, health stacking isn't all that defensive), so whoop dee doo! Better go tell Riot not to make any more AP Armor items, because then I'll be op!

And please, tell me more about how AP champions only need 1 armor item for all the physical damage mitigation they need.

I'm item 3147 sure item 3035 45 item 3071 armor item 3142 means item 3156 alot.

Maximum MordeFeb 16, 20164 votes

You forgot Athenes for magic resist plus offense. 20% cdr is very meaningful offensively and 60 ap isn't THAT bad.

101100111000Feb 16, 20162 votes

It's 25 Magic Resist. Negligible. I barely even wanted to include Banner, but because it also provides 200 Health and 100% health regen with its 20 Magic Resist while also providing a meaningful 10% cdr, it makes it a much better defensive item than Athene's, especially since it also provides the same 60 AP Athene's has. The only reason to ever build it is for the "infinite mana" regen, although if you're building mana regen, Morello's does plenty fine while providing the same amount of cdr and 20 more AP.

It Hertz When IPFeb 16, 20161 votes

Depends on how spammy your spellcasting is. I can tell you on ARAM getting an early Chalice can make a good difference.

101100111000Feb 16, 20161 votes

But at that point you're not really building Chalice and Athene's for the magic resistance, but rather for its mana regeneration passive.

MhihnjFeb 16, 20161 votes

item 3157 ™ just 3500 for all your ap armor needs

Vistha KaiFeb 16, 20162 votes

45 armor will truly make a difference.

item 3142 item 3147 item 3156 item 3035

Nevermind.

SasogwaFeb 15, 201616 votes

#Bring back DFG

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

HighH1Feb 16, 20168 votes

No bring back Zhonya's Ring. Offensive+Defensive. Because that's what item 3156 and item 3139 are right now

BlitzedlegendFeb 17, 20161 votes

Maybe with a few nerfs zhonya's ring would be able to come back

KaokentakeFeb 15, 20164 votes

beat them at their own game

build rod of ages, rylais, liandrys, swifty boots, ludens, deathcap

now your tanky too. move super fast. slow them. can kite forever. and your % damage cuts through their tankness. and since you dont have CDR your rod of ages essentially functions as "infinite mana"

GinoSoldierFeb 15, 20166 votes

{quoted}

beat them at their own game

build rod of ages, rylais, liandrys, swifty boots, ludens, deathcap

now your tanky too. move super fast. slow them. can kite forever. and your % damage cuts through their tankness. and since you dont have CDR your rod of ages essentially functions as "infinite mana"

It's not about late game. Hell most games these days have trouble getting past mid game. It's about the early game and the ridiculously good build paths AD mid laners have compared to their AP counterparts.

The issue as AP midlaner is if they build item 3147 and/or item 3156 , the items they need to get for those aren't only better, they're cheaper. They CAN get these by lvl 6, at which point they already statistically beat you, have their ults to dive and kill you, and your NLR/Seeker's Armguard pretty much won't do jack to help you. If you start either health, mana or sustain, ADs can push you into your turret easily because you can't trade with them efficiently, and if you go straight AP or Sheen, you risk getting brutally murdered by lack of survivability, not to mention probable mana issues with half of the options you have.

Plus, most the time if they have Maw already, you won't be able to trade with them and risking them

AP midlaners need an item that gives moderate amounts of AP (not enough to justify getting on a glass cannon straight AP build, say 60), some health and/or armor (preferably armor), and an anti AD shield pretty much identical to Maw's. I don't care if the damn item has to cost 3800, as long as it has a build path AP champions can actually benefit from while in the lane.

That and Riot needs to chill the hell down with both %MS items across the whole game (can we bring the average max speed champs run back to around 410-425 and not 500-550? Thanks.), and the flat armor pen everywhere.

ShonjlFeb 16, 20163 votes

Morgana is the answer to all things. No champ beats me when I go mid with her due to champion. Only way I lose is when they simply outplay me. Ohh Lux is against me? I will outsustain her and beat her back if she is aggressive, if she is passive ill farm more than her and be a bigger threat later. Ohh Zed? Ill save Q for when he makes his obvious ult play and completely waste his ult as he doesn't get any damage off. Otherwise I poke him hard while farming at the same time, also outsustain, Zed can't poke Morg down if she gets it back in 1 minion wave.

I am sure I am missing more but those are the 2 I hear people talk about the most. She probably has issues against Talon but I never see him so don't know what to explain about that.

BattleBalladeerFeb 16, 20161 votes

Veigar Are you telling me that nobody does this normally?

item 3089 item 3157 item 3135 item 3102 item 3083 item 3020

BlitzedlegendFeb 17, 20161 votes

thats fucking scary

High5Feb 16, 20164 votes

What was the rest of your team comp? I love building all armor vs triple ad carry teams too.

Dominick DestineFeb 15, 20163 votes

http://www.lolskill.net/summoner/NA/Dominick%20Destine/matches?filterChampion=25&filterQueue=

http://imgur.com/pZwGCSU http://imgur.com/VAPChgC http://imgur.com/psfzuka http://imgur.com/mcyhauM http://imgur.com/nP2fbel

AP is fine. Get rekt, son.

DrCyanideFeb 15, 201625 votes

How about you pick games where the enemy actually build multiple Maws against you as evidence, since that would be relevant to the OP's complaint?

Dominick DestineFeb 15, 20161 votes

Maybe look more closely at the items... especially on wukong, game 3.

Pwn't

DrCyanideFeb 15, 201616 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s4HWmBa9,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-02-15T23:15:10.416+0000)

Maybe look more closely at the items... especially on wukong, game 3.

Pwn't

Ironic, because if you looked closely you'd have noticed you linked to two images of the same game for games 1/2 (no Maws on the enemy team, only one on your team), and you'd have noticed that I said "multiple Maws against you", not one opponent building a Maw against you.

ShonjlFeb 16, 201617 votes

Just ignore that guy, I seen him in a lot of threads and he didn't really contribute much in any.

ayNigerianPrinceFeb 16, 20168 votes

Yeah, I've seen him around a lot. Either he's trolling, or he's stupid because I never see any decent logic from him.

It Hertz When IPFeb 16, 20161 votes

I vote stupid. No troll has this much dedication.

HighH1Feb 17, 20161 votes

Well actually there are some,but I don't think anyone can fake this kind of stupidity

ArakadiaFeb 15, 20161 votes

Do Maws stack?

LoLKiruFeb 15, 201612 votes

{quoted}

Do Maws stack?

Everything does except for the unique passive (since its got a name, Lifeline) it won't stack together, you'd get the AD and MR for each one, but the passive will only activate once, and you'd only get a normal shield, not some crazy super shield or anything.

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=s4HWmBa9,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-15T23:24:08.051+0000)

So you ask for Maw of Malmortius, I give you a Maw of Malmortius and you whine that that's not good enough? /boggle

You're right about using one link twice though, I'll correct that later.

OP is talking about situations where MULTIPLE people buy Maw and or Sterak's, not a single person.

Its become an increasingly popular option given that ADC's can be taken in multiple roles now and still be pretty optimal.

(Gonna be honest, Sterak's should probably be melee only; or at the very least only have its passive activate when you pass a certain max health threshold, similar to how Warmog's works)

Edit: thinking about it more, the health threshold seems like a better idea. That way non-melees can still purchase it if they're willing to make the sacrifices needed to hit 3k-ish hp.

ZerglingOneFeb 16, 20162 votes