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There is not a single reason to upgrade Spellthief into Frostfang right now

VDc0zCqe0w··12 votes·6,317 views

Since the gold generation nerfs (2 from 4 every 10 seconds) there is no reason to upgrade Frostfang: you will be spending 500 gold to get pitiful mana regen, 5 ability power (wich basically means nothing), and +5 damage (mitigated by armor and/or mres, so it's basically nothing) on every proc.

In most of LCS, LCK and LPL matches, you will see the support starting Spellthief, then either selling it midgame to buy Coin (wich has got a way better active), or simply sitting on the T1 Spellthief whole game long, simply because upgrading it to T3 while sitting on T2 for 10+ minutes isn't worth it.

This tremendously hurts AP support or poke-oriented supports like Sona or Karma, because it kills their gold income while not providing a good T3 option, while a tanky support can just build Relic then upgrade it to FotM while having a good gold income with Targon's.

In most of the games the income given by the T2 Frostfang is just not worth because you will be roaming as a support most of the times, so you will be rarely able to abuse the buffed procs, while you will greatly benefit from upgrading Coin into Medallion simply because Medallion gives +2 gold every 10 seconds compared to Coin (wich gives 0), so there is actually a reason to upgrade it to T2, while there is no reason to do that with Spellthief.

Poke supports are even in a bad spot right now (the only one you will see is Morgana and she's not even that pokey).

My suggestion is simply to bring the gold generation back to 4, or 3 at least.

24 Comments

Sailor Mint4 votes

Compared to Coin, Spellthief's Edge gives you extra stats in lane and helps you get your core items slightly faster. Call it over-optimization, but the only things supports care about is getting Sightstone and Mobos as fast as possible and everything beyond that is just extra.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devi Freak Mint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsnuUmoY,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-01T18:38:12.323+0000)

Compared to Coin, Spellthief's Edge gives you extra stats in lane and helps you get your core items slightly faster. Call it over-optimization, but the only things supports care about is getting Sightstone and Mobos as fast as possible and everything beyond that is just extra.

i mean guys i think you're totally missing the point of this post

right now Tanky support can go Relic into FotM and keep a steady gold income doing that, while AP (or utility support like Janna) have to go Spellthief (because you will lose lane with Coin) then sell it, changing their line and going Talisman

this is EXTREMELY bad because you will lose a stupid amount of gold doing that, while the tanky support loses 0 gold and gets what he wants

you will basically lose all the T2 gold income, and the gold you spent changing your line

Sailor Mint5 votes
  • Ancient Coin is the worst T1 since it has no combat stats, but upgrades into the best T3.
  • Relic Shield has the** least reliable Gold Income** but builds into great tanky support items.
  • Spellthief's has good combat stats and the highest potential Gold income, but the worst upgrades.

Honestly, we're talking about spending an extra 200g on Talisman at some point during the game.

In all honesty, being able to spend money on real items instead of investing money to get money sometimes down the road is not that bad of a problem to have. Even if Frostfang wasn't terrible, I'm not sure if i'd want it over a Ruby Crystal or Forbidden Idol.

Partholonian3 votes

People being forced to change lines because the one they want to start with goes nowhere is a problem though -- it's ok if there's an option to switch, but upgrading what you started with shouldn't be a noob trap. I do think that they should buff item 3098 item 3092 at least a bit.

I think it's easy to underestimate the power of item 3301 in lane, and I think that champs that aren't based around frequent poke such as Janna Soraka can do well with it.

I question the implication that sustain isn't a combat stat though. Few people spend much of their time in lane at 100% health. Coin's sustain allows you to trade more, and win over time even if you're only going even in the trade itself, even against a spellthief's (which only gets charges about half as fast as the number of minion deaths).

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devi Freak Mint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsnuUmoY,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-01T18:46:34.806+0000)

  • Ancient Coin is the worst T1 since it has no combat stats, but upgrades into the best T3.
  • Relic Shield has the** least reliable Gold Income** but builds into great tanky support items.
  • Spellthief's has good combat stats and the highest potential Gold income, but the worst upgrades.

Honestly, we're talking about spending an extra 200g on Talisman at some point during the game.

In all honesty, being able to spend money on real items instead of investing money to get money sometimes down the road is not that bad of a problem to have. Even if Frostfang wasn't terrible, I'm not sure if i'd want it over a Ruby Crystal or Forbidden Idol.

what i'm saying is that upgrading Relic into Targon gives you a fuckton of things: HP, HP regen, DOUBLE the stacks (so double the gold), upgrading Coing gives you more than double the gold and MS, while upgrading Spellthieft gives you...nothing, basically nothing

i'm talking about the T2 upgrade, not T3

Sailor Mint1 votes

Assuming you're going with a standard Sightstone rush build, by the time you get your T2 the laning phase is almost over.

Using Relic shield stacks past 15 min is frustrating in soloQ. So you're getting some tanking stats but your income is fairly shaky, especially when roaming (no Passive GP10).

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devi Freak Mint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsnuUmoY,comment-id=00010000000000010000,timestamp=2015-03-02T15:16:40.349+0000)

Assuming you're going with a standard Sightstone rush build, by the time you get your T2 the laning phase is almost over.

Using Relic shield stacks past 15 min is frustrating in soloQ. So you're getting some tanking stats but your income is fairly shaky, especially when roaming (no Passive GP10).

no it's not over, and it's not even that difficult to use the stacks out of the laning phase assuming your team is composed by idiots (wich could be since this game is 90% composed by idiots including me prob)

xLegendary Troll2 votes

With some elementary math you can quickly calculate your return on investment. Spending additional gold upgrading spell thief puts you at a disadvantage. The only real way to net some profits from this item is by keeping it tier 1. I usually end the game with around 800 gold on this item, which basically paid for itself and half the cost of sight stone. That's good enough for me.

VDc0zCqe0w1 votes

[{quoted}](name=xLegendary Troll,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsnuUmoY,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-03-01T18:31:12.407+0000)

With some elementary math you can quickly calculate your return on investment. Spending additional gold upgrading spell thief puts you at a disadvantage. The only real way to net some profits from this item is by keeping it tier 1. I usually end the game with around 800 gold on this item, which basically paid for itself and half the cost of sight stone. That's good enough for me.

that's true but tanky supports can just upgrade their item because its buildpath doesn't actually suck lol

this makes no sense to me imo, before you could legit upgrade it to Frostfang while keeping a steady gold income and a good T3 active while right now you must sit on a sub-par T2 item to actually get that T3 AP and active

xLegendary Troll2 votes

Yeah the active on face of the mountain can be a life saver. I feel like investing in AP is greedy though. lately I just buy spell thief, Rush sight stone and then build locket as a first item to segnificantly reduce mid's burst.

Erockandroll1 votes

{quoted}

that's true but tanky supports can just upgrade their item because its buildpath doesn't actually suck lol

this makes no sense to me imo, before you could legit upgrade it to Frostfang while keeping a steady gold income and a good T3 active while right now you must sit on a sub-par T2 item to actually get that T3 AP and active

Riot might be iffy making the Frost Queens line any more efficient, if they where to fear that it would be picked up by non supports. Considering the tribute passive is not disabled on the fully upgraded Frost Queens glam. I sometimes upgrade it on a Morgana, if I need to go from support to APC, but that happens very rarely.

Though I would agree, that it could use some better stats.

Support Evelynn1 votes

There is a reason, and that's if you're planning on fully upgrading the item.

BallisticMouse2 votes

Like he explained though, the coin's active is simply better.

Miku Lv991 votes

There is a reason. For those of us that play in games where we don't expect to roam all that much. I can usually have at least 1300 gold earned from my gold income item. Maybe once I get some better opponents and have to roam more or be less aggressive it won't be useful anymore. I don't think upgrading it is very good in really high mmr games, which is what the game should be balanced for so it needs a buff.

1999 01 171 votes

did they remove the +5 gold or something? I saw it still giving +10 gold which is double what the t1 item gives

ZephyrDrake1 votes

{quoted}

did they remove the +5 gold or something? I saw it still giving +10 gold which is double what the t1 item gives

why would you want to upgrade it to get 5 more gold if you are getting such pitiful stats? i used to upgrade spellthief's all the time to frostfang but when i didn't do it in one game i realized something. Frostfang is a worthless upgrade since i was actually getting items faster or just getting more useful items overall. Frost Queen at least has the benefit that if you accidentally kill a minion you can still use the charges and that slow which is somewhat useful if the support you are using doesn't have a reliable slow. Frostfang? it gives you 5 more gold per hit... while getting such pitiful increase in stats that is simply not worth it. Relic shield? you get faster charges, an extra charge, significant amounts of health AND health regen. Coin? you get passive gold regen, MS AND health regen... Frostfang is really bad when you compare it to the other items

Dangerous Man1 votes

Poke supports? k let me just sell Maokai altogether because apearantly he's not viable according to this skrub.

VDc0zCqe0w2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pixel Molotov,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rsnuUmoY,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-03-02T13:00:22.666+0000)

Poke supports? k let me just sell Maokai altogether because apearantly he's not viable according to this skrub.

dafuq are you talking about lmao, Maokai is totally viable but he's not a poke support at all, having 1 skill out of 5 wich deals SOME damage from range isn't "poke support"

in fact, he always builds relic too

Centuros1 votes

But... you get procs even after you cs!!!!

So amazing! Buy now!!!

RuGu1 votes

Depending on the champ you are correct. Some champs can keep up the harass to take advantage of the extra gold from the harass (like morgana) so upgrading to Frostfang is decent. I never upgrade past that though.

I really have no idea why this item lost 2 GP 10. It wasn't like lanes were going to start taking it.

Gold generation is very 'meh' as a support and it basically enforces utility supports as the only / best option. I'd still wish they would find ways to let supports build items (Like a store discount % granted form the Utility tree or the support items themselves)

all of the items could use an additional +2 GP 10 or some form of stat buff. I always end up selling it anyway due to wanting the slot open for other things.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Main problem with Spellthief line is that some champs just have a stupidly easy time proccing the charges. Difficult to buff the thing as long as that's true.

When playing solo queue, pros quite often build the line: http://www.probuilds.net/champions/sona

It's just that a competitive game rarely affords the gold to be able to invest here. Way more important to get your Sightstone and Mobis fast. Once you've done that, you're no longer in a time frame where investing in gold generation is rational.

Water Breathing1 votes

I always get frostfang as soon as possible (usually). Especially if I need to back early after getting a kill or something. It's really good in lane if you don't roam that much.

In fact, it pays much better because the mana regen upgrade allows you to do the combo more often, which means more gold AND more damage.

It's only 500 gold, and really worth it. If I am really ahead, FFQ is a really good power spike for some supports and the active ensures you can continue or hold your lead.

You get DOUBLE the gold from upgrading with 500. I always outperform supports that keep their coin or spell thief at level 1 because I'm doing more damage, getting more gold, and have more mana regen.

Yes, Talisman's active is better than FFQ in most cases, but it is still really good. The reason why the blue line doesn't need 4 gp5 is because gp5 is a passive stat. Spell thief is not a passive item, it is an aggressive item. Coin is the passive item line. It wouldn't make sense for the passive gold income item to have less gp5 than the aggressive item.

Coin brings the most reliable gold income and a little sustain, but no combat stats

Relic shield has the most flexibility (you can be as passive or aggressive as you want) but has the least reliable gold income (especially late game)

Spell thief has the best combat stats and is more rewarding for aggressive play, but rather risky.

I also disagree that if you start coin you automatically lose the lane. I start coin most of the time on Janna, Soraka, and even Morgana depending on the matchup and I do just fine. Coin is especially good with Soraka.

Technically speaking, Nomad's is EVEN LESS efficient than frostfang.

Nomad's is 46% efficient Frostfang is 66% efficient Targon's is 87%

So, if you re doing well in lane, and don't see that many opportunities to go elsewhere, Frostfang is fine. Obviously, if you aren't attacking regularly, it isn't worth it. But if you aren't attacking enough, why bother buying spell thief?

1999 01 171 votes

maybe it's because I play zyra who gets a ton of gold off plant attacks, but I find the extra income is worthwhile

Wînter Fox1 votes

OP is right.

item 3098 *UNIQUE Passive - Tribute: Spells and basic attacks against champions or buildings deal 15 additional damage and grant 10 Gold. This can occur up to 3 times every 30 seconds. Killing a minion disables this passive for 12 seconds. *

If you're 100% efficient with the item (which we know is impossible) you'll get +5 gold 3 times every 30 seconds, so an extra 5 gold per 10 seconds.

500g / 5 g / 10 seconds = 1000 seconds = 16.67 minutes

Itll take at least 16 minutes & 40 seconds just for Frostfang to break even with it's upgrade cost. And that's assuming you hit an enemy every 10 seconds...wow, F this item. Thank you OP for drawing my attention to this

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