When Lee Sin was not in the jungle S tier for a few patches, he was immediately buffed by Riot.

1 800 GGTOOEZ·May 5, 2017·73 votes·3,232 views

Riot's thoughts on Lee Sin dominating the jungle again: "He adds a lot to competitive play though, so we don't want to hit him too hard."

45 Comments

Magical ZoeMay 5, 201714 votes

We all know that Riot favors Lee Sin, it's pretty obvious.

KrullyMay 5, 20179 votes

balancing league around top play/low elo is bad, diamond+ should be how the game is taken into account

Fed by Snu SnuMay 5, 201740 votes

{quoted}

balancing league around top play/low elo is bad, diamond+ should be how the game is taken into account

Lee Sin is found there too, don't worry. And his shenanigans are just as prevalent.

TwinkieProMay 5, 20172 votes

But if you balance lee around High ELO, then he is technically balanced as he sits at a 50% winrate at plat+. You also have to take into consideration the games played per player on Lee Sin to correctly guage Lee's actual Power, not on pure play rate alone.

Lee Sin has an average of 10.41 games played per player, #7 of all champs and their variations of roles. Next above him is riven with an avg. of 10.58 games played per player at 10% playrate. Of all the champs in the top 10, Lee sin can only be compared to riven and yasuo as LITERALLY every other champ has less than a 3% playrate, indicating fairly dedicated mains, where if played by newbies, would tank.

Lee's stats are by far the most accurate as his player base is so obscenely large. This allows riot to easily guage his power on these numbers alone.

HarrisonOwnsMay 5, 20175 votes

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-history/NA1/200304579

Your opinion is irrelevant, Lee Sin spammer.

TwinkieProMay 5, 20179 votes

Is this facebook? where facts are irrelevant?

Also, spammer how? 10 lee games in a month is too much? Not the garen, darius, sion, jhin or singed games? none of them matter right? nah I'm just a dirty lee player. So bad, how could I. I don't know how to play my 150k mastery champ at all, i can't possibly just be good at him. Kappa

Maybe pose a real argument next time instead of ad-hominems. I'm not a sad 32 year-old man-child who complains about another companies game and how shitty it is on an alternate account. All you add to any discussion is mass ad-hominems while referring to everyone as "kid" as if you aren't one yourself. Go make a game yourself with your useless degree you half-wit. Don't bother trying to defend yourself, no one actually cares what you do anyways.

And with that, I bid you adieu.

HarrisonOwnsMay 5, 20176 votes

That's a lot of words to say, "My opinion is irrelevant because I spam Lee Sin and I am incapable of being objective while abusing overtuned trash."

HarrisonOwnsMay 5, 20175 votes

An ad hominem is saying your argument is wrong because you spam Lee Sin.

You being incapable of being objective is inconsequential to your pathetic argument.

Your argument fails all on its own merit.

You're welcome for the education on formal logical fallacies, child.

Yaśuo MainMay 5, 20174 votes

The last 3 sentences begin with accusations and begin with the first 3 letters being "You", please stop trying.

nice tableMay 5, 20171 votes

plat is high elo and his win ratio isn't worse than it should be because a lot of people with no games on him play him in ranked :^)

GayFluffyUnicornMay 5, 20171 votes

Do you call plat+ high elo? in diamond alone he has a 52% winrate up to 60% the higher you go to master/challenger nad he is basically picked every game.

DreadlocksMay 6, 20172 votes

If the sheep arn't crying about lee sin its someone else.

Riven Zed Yasuo Graves just to name a few..

Yet champions like Ahri Ivern are okay to them because they don't feel as dumpstered by them despite those 2 having 51-58% winrates every patch. :)

JefftiffyMay 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fed by Snu Snu,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rq7v6TTo,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2017-05-05T00:48:47.846+0000)

Lee Sin is found there too, don't worry. And his shenanigans are just as prevalent.

Except in mid to low play most of his shenanigans are only successful because the people against the better player get destroyed. Or in my experience almost everyone on these boards is so blinded by rage at him that they never try him and learn how to beat him or his flaws. I can understand frustration, but he isn't OP and honestly I feel that champs like Yasuo are bigger problems because of how oppressive they can be that they shape the meta and basically eat a ban every game. Even with multiple nerfs and reworks to items Yasuo uses he still pops up every patch and never really loses any power and still has his strengths intact. And IMO he is more frustrating to play against for more people and more champs and actually has more potential than LeeSin .

PetraneseMay 5, 20171 votes

You can punish Yasuo, you can't do that to Lee. Im not hating Lee or anything, but look at it:

Lee has baseline lifesteal and on-demand shield. Yasuo does not. In fact, early lifesteal puts Yasuo behind.
if you want to hit Lee sin with slow-moving skillshot, its very difficult due to his dash, while its almost guaranteed to hit Yasuo who initiated dash trough minion.
Yasuo relies for Tornado to initiate, Lee can Q AND wardhop

Fed by Snu SnuMay 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Except in mid to low play most of his shenanigans are only successful because the people against the better player get destroyed. Or in my experience almost everyone on these boards is so blinded by rage at him that they never try him and learn how to beat him or his flaws. I can understand frustration, but he isn't OP and honestly I feel that champs like are bigger problems because of how oppressive they can be that they shape the meta and basically eat a ban every game. Even with multiple nerfs and reworks to items uses he still pops up every patch and never really loses any power and still has his strengths intact. And IMO he is more frustrating to play against for more people and more champs and actually has more potential than .

I wont disagree that pieces of shit like Yasuo and Katarina are bigger problems, but they don't shape the meta. They are just obnoxious pieces of shit who faceroll their way to victory and make their users feel rock hard.

But Lee is indeed a problem. He dictates the jungle meta through his invades. There is a reason why perfectly fine champions do not get picked and that reason is Lee Sin's early invades.

And that has been the case since ever. Sejuani wasn't "bad", she just couldn't handle Lee. And she still can't handle Lee, which is why she will fall out of flavour again now that she got nerfed to her proper place: Below Lee Sin.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 5, 20171 votes

Lol? Yasuo shaping the meta? No matter how strong yasuo is he never influenced which champs can be played. That's lee sin right there who kills off 95% of the jungler roster when ever he is meta. Only graves right now and elise are left to deal with his early game bullshit. And yasuo only eats bans in low elo.

JefftiffyMay 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Lol? Yasuo shaping the meta? No matter how strong yasuo is he never influenced which champs can be played. That's lee sin right there who kills off 95% of the jungler roster when ever he is meta. Only graves right now and elise are left to deal with his early game bullshit. And yasuo only eats bans in low elo.

As long as Yasuo is stupid strong against the majority of champions in mid lane and ADC's he is going to always eat a ban slot. That's how you prevent someone from shaping the meta. Someone shapes the meta by slipping through bans and if Yasuo was ever allowed to be in mid lane we wouldn't see half the champs that are in that lane. Yasuo has even forced champs out of top lane (which traditionally has been a lane that counters him really hard).

Yasuo has the problem of a contradictory kit. He has a strong early game to help him kick off. But he doesn't really fall off late game compared to most early game champs. He counters ranged champs, but at the same time can out duel melee champs due to his defensive stats and mobility. So he is supposed to counter range champs. Yet he gets free tank shred making him also good at killing everyone else (even better now that armor is getting more abundant). His kit is more overloaded than Lee's and people complain about Lee.

The reason you can't play any of the people like Sej and stuff isn't Lee. It's the fact that their clears are so slow and weak that invaders can kill them easily. Warwick XinZhao Shaco Volibear Evelynn MasterYi are very common picks for killing other junglers. The key to preventing that is team coordination or picking the right champ for the job.

J EevoMay 6, 20171 votes

You know I love this "uh, people don't play him and don't know how to counter him, he's actually balanced" arguments.

Now let's see here, with Lee sin popularity being actually close to around 40% you're assuming that almost half of the game's population is comprised of dedicated lee sin mains, while the other half miraculously never seen or played him in his life.

Face it, with lee being staple for YEARS, anyone that was even close to jungling HAD to play lee and learn lee. If anything, lee being so popular made it EASIER for people to learn how lee operates, what his gameplay patterns are, his limits, and what you can expect.

MunchCrunchLunchMay 5, 20176 votes

{quoted}

balancing league around top play/low elo is bad, diamond+ should be how the game is taken into account

really? 2% of the players. it should be balanced around platinum at least

KrullyMay 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

really? 2% of the players. it should be balanced around platinum at least

I mean, theres a lot of pandering by riot to pro scene so the game isnt in a natural state and in low elo nearly anything can work to a point but yeah i guess including plat, i was just typing what was on the mind

macromiteMay 5, 20175 votes

funny thing is if the only balance around the top 50% that still means that silver needs to be taken into consideration. top 25% means that you're balancing mostly for gold level play. top 10% means that high gold is still a part of what the need to worry about. if you balance for diamond plus that means that you are only balancing for around 2% of the playerbase, which is a group that is too small to gather the required amount of data from.

WeepinShadesMay 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

balancing league around top play/low elo is bad, diamond+ should be how the game is taken into account

This is yet another false dichotomy people create when discussing balance. They can balance the game at varying degrees around many different skill levels. They aren't restricted to picking one elo and then solely balancing around them.

As for lee, he's simply picked too much. There are 140~ champs in the game and single one is being played in 40+% of games consistently through the seasons. Something has to give. It's not even about whether he's overpowered (although he probably is), it's stupid playing against the same champion in the jungle every game just because everyone has to endlessly play fotm champs. I have a problem with any champion who is played this much. The thing is, at least with certain champs they're only highly picked for a month or so tops. Lee sin is eternal. He doesn't even have to be bad, just not an auto pick in every game.

GelsominoKillerMay 5, 20176 votes

I may add that those two patches were the cinderhulk meta, in which Lee Sin was far from being absent. Competitively, he still had a 20% pickrate.

The most absurd thing is that the buff Lee received was specifically designed to artificially boost his performance in an adverse metagame.

We're talking the shitload of bonus damage on R he gets for kicking a tank into his team, which was arbitrary, unnecessary, unneeded, uncalled for.

DivewingMay 5, 20175 votes

They realised that he didn't have any method of dealing with tanks.

What's unreasonable about making him a good pick in every sing- I'm beginning to think Lee is getting favourable treatment...

AtanchanMay 5, 20172 votes

To be honest, having strong generalists isn't an issue on its own. The issue arises when the specialists aren't strong enough nor have a distinct enough yet relevant enough niche to compete ...

I think DOTA is a good example. Every patch you have a handful of heroes that picked extremely often due to the fact that they fit in practically every team comp. However, you'll still see almost every other hero picked as well, either because they fit or round out their team comp's strength so much more, or because they just have a better match up vs. the enemy heroes. Hell, a hero is usually not picked due to actually being too weak for the patch or just not fitting in the meta at all.

DisulfiramMay 5, 20172 votes

A generalist pick is actually fine - the problem is when he outperforms or can compete with specialists in their own niche. AFAIK a generalist should be a "jack of all trades, master of none", someone who you can safely first pick and expect to be ok-ish with. Imho the problem with Lee is the same Yasuo has, and that is one of agency - you beat him only if he screws up, because he's simply too good at too many things if played correctly.

The ease with which they can screw up keeps them balanced, but not actually having agency against them is very frustrating.

HarrisonOwnsMay 5, 20175 votes

Incompetence coupled with blatant favoritism.

Chinese overlords Tencent say, "He makes a ton of money in skins, never nerf."

Lucian WaifuMay 5, 20175 votes

Lee was out of the meta for quite a while and riot never buffed him nor did anyone complain about him. This was during last season when he had a 46% win rate.

charge attackMay 5, 20172 votes

Shh people on boards don't care about stats unless it supports them. Btw 46% win rate is probably too good for Lee according to boards.

arcinexMay 5, 20174 votes

When AP Kog'Maw was played in a few games of LCS it was dumpstered.

When Ryze was popularized because of Faker's performance on him at worlds it was dumpstered.

When Lee Sin was not meta he was immediately buffed by Riot.

Faker's impeccable win rate on LeBlanc in professional play led to her garbage rework.

When Veigar support became a thing in LCS, his cage (e) was immediately nerfed.

Joke of the century - Riot: "We don't play favorites with our champions. Also we don't balance around esports Kappa."

devdev463May 5, 20173 votes

This simply isn't true, he was an average pick/subpar pick for quite a while before he got any buffs.

Synnx7May 5, 20172 votes

They don't have any game balance, period. For the fact that they balance around their stupid LC$ and around their FAVORITISM , this shows they're purely incompetent and dumb. Yet they have the guts to say " game balance"

CØulrophobiaMay 5, 20172 votes

Riot: We dont favour any champions. Playerbase: Over 20 champions are unplayable, and 10 are played in everysingle game. Riot: It will soon be solved with new meta and items they will get. PB:Lee, Yasuo, Ivern are too op with 55% winrate. Riot:They will be kittens when new reworks and champions launch with 65% winrate. PB:We need a way to deal with annoying teamcomps, and there is not enough diversity in the game. Riot: Here we will change the jungle so only 3 junglers are viable and we will make a herald for instawinning the games. Oh yeah we are also nerfing every specialist champion in order to make more generalists. Need anything else? PB:No... Its ok.

The Lost MarblesMay 5, 20171 votes

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macromiteMay 5, 201722 votes

if nerfing lee wouldn't stop lee players from palying him they would've nerfed him a while ago. they know that lee getting any real nerf would essentially cut his playerbase into pieces.

XJ9lolMay 5, 20172 votes

Remember that Lee Sin rework that was proposed back in 2014? Would have buffed him but put a bigger reliance on hitting his abilities. The response? People screamed it would break him into uselessness so Riot avoided it.

Really pisses me off that Lee has had significantly more time in the jungle spotlight than anyone else. Not to mention if half of the shit happening to other champions happened to Lee, you know it'd be reverted in virtually no time. Zac got gutted in season 4 and was basically left there. If this was Lee he'd have been compensated.

Kindred was built around the old jungle, this new jungle wrecks her too hard. She has hardly seen any help.

Lee since release has had a grand total of half a season where he wasn't a dominant pick. No champion is allowed in the spotlight that long without tons of nerfs. Zac, Elise, Shaco, anything else in this stupid game, all get nerfed hard. Lee and Graves apparently are allowed to stay busted because his playerbase is mostly too retarded to play him correctly and abuse his strength.

If Lee had the amount of people playing him as Hecarim in seasons 2, post nerf season 3, season 4 before he got popular and it was mostly just dedicated mains, his winrate would be much higher.

macromiteMay 5, 20171 votes

first thing, all of this is correct.

Second thing, I love your name and f.e.k. avatar.

Ulquiorra995May 5, 201710 votes

Actually Lucian had times when he was below 10% pick rate. And during cinderhulk meta for a patch or two Lee had around 18% pick rate, compared to almost 50% he has today. So where were those 30% when Lee wasn't top tier? That's well more than a half of his player base not playing him because he's fun but rather because he's busted - making "he's just fun" argument invalid.

And it's one thing being careful how they nerf him. It's entirely another thing if he gets buffs after a single patch of not being top tier. You know what? Riot, their favouritism and Lee players can go collectively fuck themselves once we get 10 bans. If they refuse to balance him then I'll simply remove him from my games. Permanently.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 5, 20172 votes

Dude, junglers are the same as adc mains they only play what is busted at the moment. And not because they are "fun" well they are fun when they oneshot anything but to get to the point, look up any plat/diamond lee sin player and you will notice he played a lot of games on graves, heca, vi before he started lee sin. Now ask yourself why.

v good pupperMay 5, 20171 votes

not exactly surprising in any regard.

SkorchMay 5, 20171 votes

But according to the boards Lee has never been not S tier?

Anonymous AliasMay 5, 20171 votes

even though like 0.001% of players are featured in competitive play.

TyrekGoldenspearMay 5, 20171 votes

This way Riot can say they believe in equal opportunities for Blind people.

Lee sin pick rate = 50%

Lee sin win rate = 50% (ish)

all is equal.

Kappa.

AekoMay 5, 20171 votes

When's the last time he's been buffed? The first couple of patches in season 6? He's been untouched besides recent nerfs which you can find on the wiki. The only recent buff I can see affecting him is his life steal went up slightly.

I'm not stating anything else other than I don't see where his immediate buff is. He's just been rising in popularity overall. Granted he is a bit much to deal with but nothing really over the top or nothing unexpected.