The main point of Fencing and sword dueling is to attack your enemies' perceived weak spots, or where their body armor had openings or didn't cover to body very well.
Just my 2 cents
Astôlfo47 votesI mean if you think about it this way, 100% armor pen is essentially true damage. And if you're a fencer and get the extremely narrow point through the armor and hit their body, that's basically ignoring the armor altogether. I don't see what the difference would be.
FantasySniper11 votesI get your point, but he is also probably implying that it shouldn't be complete true damage or more likely that it shouldn't be a % hp at least.
Low-key suggestion to nerf her in a way that's consistent with her theme.
Astôlfo18 votesBut that implies Fiora needs nerfs. The point of fencing is to try and get a strike on the enemy. Outside of just dueling where taps on heart and stuff work, in an actual combat duel, you'd need to get the needle-thin blade through the armor. Hitting somewhere covered by said armor is usually somewhere important (a limb joint/vital area/etc). Hence, getting said area impaled by a sword would do very bad things to the person who got stabbed. Hence, true damage being the most akin? Just my take on it.
If it's not true damage and only partial reduction, that's like just stabbing through the armor. Which can't happen obviously, with a blade like that. Nor is it as rewarding for actually landing a Vital. You know, the whole theme.
RogueWill3 votesBut that implies Fiora needs nerfs. The point of fencing is to try and get a strike on the enemy. Outside of just dueling where taps on heart and stuff work, in an actual combat duel, you'd need to get the needle-thin blade through the armor. Hitting somewhere covered by said armor is usually somewhere important (a limb joint/vital area/etc). Hence, getting said area impaled by a sword would do very bad things to the person who got stabbed. Hence, true damage being the most akin? Just my take on it.
If it's not true damage and only partial reduction, that's like just stabbing through the armor. Which can't happen obviously, with a blade like that. Nor is it as rewarding for actually landing a Vital. You know, the whole theme.
He is implying to change her % true damage to basically flat true damage which would mean she woudl need to buy damage items to be able to kill tanks instead of just melting them with % true damage.
PermabannedGaren8 votesHe is implying to change her % true damage to basically flat true damage which would mean she woudl need to buy damage items to be able to kill tanks instead of just melting them with % true damage.
You are aware that if Fiora doesn't buy damage items her percent true damage is extremely low, right? Riot killed bruiser Fiora.
Astôlfo22 votesUh, tank Fiora is dead. And she's meant to be a duelist that can duel anyone, including tanks. That's why her kit is like that. She's supposed to be able to shred everyone EQUALLY well as long as she duels well. Flat would favor squishies over tanks, which defeats the point.
Sire Hippington1 votesShe's supposed to be able to shred everyone EQUALLY well as long as she duels well. Flat would favor squishies over tanks, which defeats the point.
I think that's not really correct. If both targets just stand there, flat would favour her vs squshys, yes, but squishys are usually squishy because they have 1-3 of the following qualitys: High mobillity, Range and high damage. It is usually alot harder to get the vital procs cs squishys than it is vs hulking tanks, and squishys usually return more damage, so more pay off from hiting vitals vs squishys would actually help her havein equal dueling power vs all opponents.
Right now, her issues hitting vitals on squishy targets gets compensated with raw physical damage on q+aa+e, which is basically the same low counterplay pattern she had befor the rework. I'd prefer her haveing flat truedamage on her vitals and less raw damage on q+aa+e so she actually needs to play the vital games vs squishys aswell and therefor gets rewarded more then doing it cxorrectly. This probably reduces her overall power and allows for some compensation buffs, like reverting the slow nefs on E, increasing her base health or slightly buffing her Q dash range or giving a small ad ratio on the heal vs vitals. This would meand she would still win duels bs tanks, but by outsustaining them rather than simply deleting them on the spot, while haveing a more conditional burst vs squishy compensated by more survivabillity and utillity.
But as it is right now, tanks lack the tools to avoid vital procs and are just helpless vs her at some point, while squishys get deleted by point n click burst if she's ahead. If not, she just fails to be relevant at all.
Pierce The Veal1 votesBut that implies Fiora needs nerfs. The point of fencing is to try and get a strike on the enemy. Outside of just dueling where taps on heart and stuff work, in an actual combat duel, you'd need to get the needle-thin blade through the armor. Hitting somewhere covered by said armor is usually somewhere important (a limb joint/vital area/etc). Hence, getting said area impaled by a sword would do very bad things to the person who got stabbed. Hence, true damage being the most akin? Just my take on it.
If it's not true damage and only partial reduction, that's like just stabbing through the armor. Which can't happen obviously, with a blade like that. Nor is it as rewarding for actually landing a Vital. You know, the whole theme.
Huh, good point.
I guess piercing into a guy with tons of muscles and bones as hard as steel should deal the same damage to him as it would to justin bieb— Ezreal.
Astôlfo3 votesIt doesn't matter how much muscles or bones you have or how hard they are. She's not stabbing bone. And a blade like that pierces through muscle without too much difficulty. Especially more so considering how thin the blade is, and that it's a piercing type rather than slashing for actual effectiveness. If you get your tendons slashed or an organ pierced, you could be Bruce Lee. That's not going to save you from having your organs being ruptured/the very connective muscle itself being cut.
Pierce The Veal1 votesIt doesn't matter how much muscles or bones you have or how hard they are. She's not stabbing bone. And a blade like that pierces through muscle without too much difficulty. Especially more so considering how thin the blade is, and that it's a piercing type rather than slashing for actual effectiveness. If you get your tendons slashed or an organ pierced, you could be Bruce Lee. That's not going to save you from having your organs being ruptured/the very connective muscle itself being cut.
I'm a fencer, and I've studied anatomy extensively. While a blade will indeed hurt bruce lee, that's for regular human beings. I assure you you wouldn't be able to pierce a bear so easily. If you look at it that way, most champions in the game should deal true damage.
Astôlfo1 votesYes but the theme is she's specifically supposed to be the best duelist (except Jax maybe? IDK, conflicting lores). I wouldn't say it's that farfetched for her to pierce a bear either. And besides, with this logic, that assumes armor depends based on physical form of the champion, which it doesn't. Also the thing with buying armor meaning it would reduce the damage Fiora does, except that shouldn't be possible, because no amount of armor will save you from the blade slipping past it anyways and just hitting the vital directly.
Pierce The Veal2 votesYes but the theme is she's specifically supposed to be the best duelist (except Jax maybe? IDK, conflicting lores). I wouldn't say it's that farfetched for her to pierce a bear either. And besides, with this logic, that assumes armor depends based on physical form of the champion, which it doesn't. Also the thing with buying armor meaning it would reduce the damage Fiora does, except that shouldn't be possible, because no amount of armor will save you from the blade slipping past it anyways and just hitting the vital directly.
Yet someone who has more vitality shouldn't take more damage because of it.
My point is armor and health enchants the body of the champion him/her/itself, thus making them all that much stronger physically.
I also love how you conpletely ignored my comment about how your logic indicates most champions should deal true damage. Fire will burn your flesh, it is powered by your flesh, so annie and brand should also deal true % hp damage. From a balance and game health persoective, something in fiora's kit needs to give.
Astôlfo1 votesUh, it doesn't matter how much fucking vitality you have. If you get a sword stabbed through your organ or one of your tendons slashed, you're gonna have a bad time whether you're the weakest or strongest being alive. Hitting a Vital renders all armor and health irrelevant because it's a critical, important point in the body. So it should not matter how strong or whatever the champion target is.
Also, yes, by that logic, most champions could deal true damage. The point is, it fits Fiora thematically more specifically because she's a dueler that literally targets vitals. No, nothing in her kit needs to give, she's fine as is.
Pierce The Veal1 votesUh, it doesn't matter how much fucking vitality you have. If you get a sword stabbed through your organ or one of your tendons slashed, you're gonna have a bad time whether you're the weakest or strongest being alive. Hitting a Vital renders all armor and health irrelevant because it's a critical, important point in the body. So it should not matter how strong or whatever the champion target is.
Also, yes, by that logic, most champions could deal true damage. The point is, it fits Fiora thematically more specifically because she's a dueler that literally targets vitals. No, nothing in her kit needs to give, she's fine as is.
The catch here is every champion has a differing strength to their body. Just because you target that vital doesn't mean there isn't flesh (magically reinforced by the armor stat) that is blocking it.
Astôlfo1 votesBase armor is like wearing armor. Bonus armor from buying armor/whatever abilities/etc is like getting better/putting on more armor. Armor is basically weightless and doesn't impair movement/speed/etc. Flesh is flesh. That doesn't change. Blade goes through flesh easily. That doesn't change either.
It doesn't matter how much armor you have if the blade slips past an area where the armor wasn't covering it (joint area, between plates, etc). Body strength is irrelevant.
Pierce The Veal1 votesBase armor is like wearing armor. Bonus armor from buying armor/whatever abilities/etc is like getting better/putting on more armor. Armor is basically weightless and doesn't impair movement/speed/etc. Flesh is flesh. That doesn't change. Blade goes through flesh easily. That doesn't change either.
It doesn't matter how much armor you have if the blade slips past an area where the armor wasn't covering it (joint area, between plates, etc). Body strength is irrelevant.
I mean fire also doesn't get stopped by flesh, burning is burning, flesh is flesh, #giveShyvanaAnnieBrandTrueDamage
Same with Yasuo, he stabs with a Katana, which basically ignores armor. Flesh is flesh, give him true damage.
Yet chewing on someone as Cho'gath does true damage.
Your logic is flawed.
Astôlfo1 votesYes except fire is shot at you. You're wearing armor/protective whatever. The fire hits that first. Any resultant damage would be any fire that go through it or eventual heat conduction and burning you anyways. A katana is both a slashing and piercing weapon and someone like Yasuo would just cleave through people whether or not they have armor. He doesn't give a shit about being precise and hitting specific vitals/key points. Yes maybe because Cho'Gath is a gigantic creature that could devour planets or something if I remember correctly and his bite would just cleave straight through the armor and shred it apart instantly?
Meanwhile Fiora uses a needle-thin blade and focuses on maneuvering the blade through the gaps in armor to strike at vital points that the armor failed to protect. AKA, key organs, tendons, etc.
The irony is real.
Astôlfo1 votesYes which is why her regular attacks do normal physical damage. And I mean if you really want to go for full stretching of belief or whatever the phrase is called, Malphite is the size of a mountain. A shield made of wind can block an exploding star. Jumping on top of a pole makes you invincible. Etc etc.
nice table6 votesalistar ult, annie shield, maokai ult etc. there is a difference between 100% armor pen physical damage and true damage.
Astôlfo2 votesSorry I don't know those 3, what do you mean? True damage being irreducible? That's fine, the Vital proc damage shouldn't be reducible.
nice table2 votesmy point is exactly what i said my point is, there is indeed a difference between true damage and 100% armor pen.
DeathBurst1 votesHe means that a few skills give damage reduction separated from the Armor stat against physical damage. So they would still reduce physical damage even with 100% Armor Pen. But they don't reduce real True Damage.
CasterGilgamesh9 votesRiot has been through this before with people they want people to play around fiora not build against her it removes the point of her being the grand duelist she can fight anyone evenly that means tanks are not an exception.If people could just armor against her kit then she as a duelist is done for.
AstroFerrari 1 votesMy idea would be to replace the true damage with % total armor ignorance so while the enemy can stack armor, it wouldn't really help as the passive and Fiora's AD begin to scale.
CerealBoxOfDoom2 votesMy idea would be to replace the true damage with % total armor ignorance so while the enemy can stack armor, it wouldn't really help as the passive and Fiora's AD begin to scale.
so why do this at all
edit
so why do this at all if its just gonna be the same thing but basically worse
AstroFerrari 3 votesWell everybody is always raving about how her having true damage makes her broken even though shes sitting at a 48% winrate. This also fits more thematically since shes supposed to be a duelist and all.
Astôlfo3 votesThen don't bother listening to the stupid crying QQers lol She doesn't need changes let alone nerfs
AstroFerrari 1 votesYeah you're right. A lot of these guys say a lot of things that make ask if we're even playing the same game sometimes
Astôlfo2 votes"They're OP because I lost in a game where they were on the enemy team"
Critmaster Garen7 votesbut true damage ignores armor.
AstroFerrari 2 votesI know that but everyone complains about it and proclaims that it alone makes her broken. Why not change it to total armor ignorance and have it scale with % missing health to give it an execute twist ?
The Yetii Rider10 votesI know that but everyone complains about it and proclaims that it alone makes her broken. Why not change it to total armor ignorance and have it scale with % missing health to give it an execute twist ?
Because she's not an assassin.
Look, your proposal to have it ignore armor essentially makes her stronger at killing squishy characters. The % health damage means that she does less damage against squishies but stable damage against tanks.
AstroFerrari 1 votesActually look up her page on League wiki, her secondary champion type is an Assassin
The Yetii Rider3 votesThat's from before her rework.
Hinagiku334 votesAnd also because Fiora is supposed to buy lots of AD to scale to vital damage, and getting lots of AD tends to make bursting low armor targets a lot easier.
Toplane Fencer2 votesShe isn't even broken though. Not strong not weak atm. Also, why do you want to make Fiora an assassin? She's a duelist, jesus, not a clean up bot.
Slamurai Jack6 votesThen you could just stack health against it. It's supposed to be uncounterable strictly through item builds. Accept it already.
AstroFerrari 1 votesI'm speaking as someone who enjoys playing Fiora. People complain about her true damage, all i did was offer a possible solution
Slamurai Jack5 votesYou offered a completely thoughtless solution. Think. Why is Fiora's passive true damage?
AstroFerrari 3 votesLol how was it thoughtless? You don't need to insult me, just have a civil discussion.
Slamurai Jack3 votesIt's thoughtless because it shows absolutely no consideration for why it is the way it is in the first place.
And this IS a civil discussion. Believe me, I'm being far nicer than you really deserve right now.
AstroFerrari 1 votesI know why it's there, so that people can't mindlessly build against it and she can't be easily countered by tanks and tanky building fighters. Everybody is always complaining about how her %hp true damage doesn't counterplay (which is redundant because it's not supposed to).
I say swap it with total armor ignorance, maybe ignoring 50 or 60% total armor, and having the proc'd vital deal bonus physical damage based on total HP or missing HP. Fiora already builds a Black Cleaver as a standard, and duelists/fencers are supposed to slash and aim for where the armor is the weakest or where the armor doesn't cover. Thematically it fits, and the dreaded true damage everyone hates disappears.
Now remind me of how my suggestion is thoughtless, cause now you know my exact thoughts.
Slamurai Jack2 votesBecause then you could just stack health against it instead of building armor. I already said that.
Toplane Fencer2 votesYou aren't listening to anyone's replies though. You're not discussing, you just keep reiterating your one line.
PermabannedGaren3 votesWouldn't it make more sense to not nerf a champion who isn't overpowered?
AstroFerrari 3 votesIt would but as far as I can tell from these boards, the mentality is that Fiora is OP just by existing
PermabannedGaren3 votesIt would but as far as I can tell from these boards, the mentality is that Fiora is OP just by existing
The people on these boards are mostly stupid mouth-breathing degenerate tank and mage mains who shouldn't be trusted to talk about game balance.
AstroFerrari 2 voteshahaha amen to that
Sad Tyrant1 voteslet me remind you, that you are also a mouth breather, with a name like that you are most likely a top main and therefore most likely a tank/mage main, consequently you might not be trusted to talk about game balance, also you are level 7
PermabannedGaren3 votes[{quoted}](name=Sad Tyrant,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rcbd8Fmo,comment-id=0006000000000001,timestamp=2016-07-28T01:26:52.731+0000)
let me remind you, that you are also a mouth breather, with a name like that you are most likely a top main and therefore most likely a tank/mage main, consequently you might not be trusted to talk about game balance, also you are level 7
I am indeed a top lane main, but a tank/mage main? Please, I don't play either.
This is an account I made because I was banned from the boards for dunking on scrubs.