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Make Vayne's True Damage scale off AD.

ModAcademy Kayn··55 votes·3,770 views

Alright before you have a heart attack, let me explain more. Currently, Vayne gets her True Damage Scalings from ranking up an ability.

4/6/8/10/12% Scaling levels 1-5.

There's no mana cost increase, no cd decrease, no nothing, other than the increasing scaling of the true damage. Now let me explain a problem. Currently, Vaynes are building two items first. item 3087 and item 3094. She gets MS, AS, Crit and the extra magic damage from both of these, that all benefit her Kit immensely!

I don't know anyone else who benefits more than these items by themselves, without any AD to back it up. Vayne is able to completely skip AD for two full items and is now able to move fast, proc silverbolts fast, do burst with two separate instances of magic damage, while still making her base AD come into play with the Crit Chance.

Now there are two solutions here. First of all, make Static Shiv and FireCannons passives the same unique passive, so we don't have that dumb stacking of the two. The second is to make Vayne's true damage scale of bonus AD. Instead of now, which is 4/6/8/10/12% from just ranking the ability up, it could now be 2%/3/4/5/6% while having a bonus ad scaling of 1% for every 50 or 75 extra AD.

Of course, the release of this thread means that we have come full circle of the nerf threads, from Lee-Sin, Yasou, and now Vayne, but whatever. Circles are meant to be infinite. Of course the numbers aren't final and an idea like this would take a lot of thought, but think about it.

66 Comments

Sasogwa19 votes

Though I hate Vayne, this would actually be... a huge nerf.

So Vayne obviously gets AS from items to synergize with her passive, now if she gets passive with low base damage and AD scaling, she's gonna either be forced to build a bunch of AD, sacrificing attack speed, making her much weaker than now. Or she would build attack speed, and the true damage being highly nerfed without bonus AD, she would be much weaker as well.

So to compensate that, so that she remains viable, the ratio would have to be pretty high (outscaling the current one in 6 items), and make her basically even more of an insane lategame monster ; which is clearly not wanted. (because if you give her a weak ratio she's gonna be garbage, basically)

Overall, the curve of power it would give her would make her less balanced.

But as you said, the problem is the Statikk/Rapidfire stacking. It has to be removed and all put on the same passive name, Energized attack.

I also believe that the fact item 3364 item 3341 do not give true vision anymore is really bad. Or we should be allowed to have a pink trinket. Cause when you have 6 items, no place for pinks in your inventory and it becomes much harder to fight vayne (in splitpush for instance), when she's already an insane duellist (she does not need so much reward).

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

I'd have to say that you bring up a lot that is true. Numbers are numbers and they are complicated because they are numbers.

Maybe we could make it total AD, or go with a lower number for scaling. I'm just getting REALLY MIFFED about the fact that this build works. I know the entire point of the update was to diverse builds for adcs but this is just reflectingly dumb.

Sasogwa1 votes

{quoted}

I'd have to say that you bring up a lot that is true. Numbers are numbers and they are complicated because they are numbers.

Maybe we could make it total AD, or go with a lower number for scaling. I'm just getting REALLY MIFFED about the fact that this build works. I know the entire point of the update was to diverse builds for adcs but this is just reflectingly dumb.

Well it also had to do with the buff she got from silver bolts. Basically, she doesn't give a shit about tankmelting items because her W is stronger, and right now crit is super strong (in general) and against squishies...

And oh miracle crit items go with attack speed. So hurr durr, let's buy as/crit and win win scenario, no matter what you're facing.

I personally think 30% crit is too much for Statikk/Rapidfire also, but that's just my humble opinion anyway. Like, last season you had to choose between item 3046 with great scaling stats, crit percentage and AS, but basically an item that's all about multipliers and kinda weak without other items ; or item 3087 with weaker scaling but more utility and the lightning base damage that helps more midgame.

(Yet, at the same time, botrk was stupidly strong; but mostly an item for only Vayne Twitch )

Right now, every crit/as item gives the same crit percentage, and these are very good percentages (30). I don't really like it.

maikokk3 votes

y'know whats even more dumb? with increased base scaling for w, builds like item 3153 item 3078 item 3053 item 3022 item 3742 still provide a ton of damage... so a vayne top lane pick doesnt even need to screw with the cohesion of the comp. she CAN be the bruiser.

KONO RUBICK DA1 votes

{quoted}

y'know whats even more dumb? with increased base scaling for w, builds like item 3153 item 3078 item 3053 item 3022 item 3742 still provide a ton of damage... so a vayne top lane pick doesnt even need to screw with the cohesion of the comp. she CAN be the bruiser.

will try and confirm later

maikokk1 votes

have you tried it yet? ive been waiting for confirmation :P

ive done it in aram a few times and pulled off some lee-sin type plays

Zelnorack1 votes

For boots, best option then would be item 3111 . They're still gonna try to chain CC you to hell and back, so some tenacity will help you the most.

Other great options are; The usual ADC item item 3006 , or the sanic boots item 3009 .

Otherwise, if your team has 3 dragons, you could, theoretically, use item 3046

maikokk1 votes

PD instead of boots with 3 dragons and 2 other items that provide MS actually sounds legit. RIP zephyr tho

BioticBrony1 votes

Maybe instead of having the scaling scale off of bonus AD instead just have the scaling rank up.

Maybe like, 3/3.5/4/4.5/5% Base Percentage Damage plus 1/2/3/4/5% Total AD

Pierce The Veal1 votes

{quoted}

Though I hate Vayne, this would actually be... a huge nerf.

So Vayne obviously gets AS from items to synergize with her passive, now if she gets passive with low base damage and AD scaling, she's gonna either be forced to build a bunch of AD, sacrificing attack speed, making her much weaker than now. Or she would build attack speed, and the true damage being highly nerfed without bonus AD, she would be much weaker as well.

So to compensate that, so that she remains viable, the ratio would have to be pretty high (outscaling the current one in 6 items), and make her basically even more of an insane lategame monster ; which is clearly not wanted. (because if you give her a weak ratio she's gonna be garbage, basically)

Overall, the curve of power it would give her would make her less balanced.

But as you said, the problem is the Statikk/Rapidfire stacking. It has to be removed and all put on the same passive name, Energized attack.

I also believe that the fact item 3364 item 3341 do not give true vision anymore is really bad. Or we should be allowed to have a pink trinket. Cause when you have 6 items, no place for pinks in your inventory and it becomes much harder to fight vayne (in splitpush for instance), when she's already an insane duellist (she does not need so much reward).

The two passives stacking is fun and a positive influence on the game.

The fact that vayne can build both and not have to worry about having low damage with 0 bonus ad is the problem.

But maybe, just maybe, it's not that big of a problem. If she's broke. We can tune down her hp/5 stat or something. No need to nerf shiv firecannon strategy just because one or two champions abuse it.

Commando Yi4 votes

% hp max true damage is a concept that should never have been introduced into the game

JedenVojak4 votes

Why do you want to make Vayne boring and like every other adc?

Vayne scales off attack speed by design, what you're suggesting would ruin that.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Maybe the problem lays within the two items that I've seen a lot of Vaynes build. Static and Firecannons stacking passives may be the reason why she is too strong. Fixing those two may dislodge any complaint I may have.

Numbers aren't final. They'd require an actual game designer to look over extensively.

But please keep in mind, I'm not annoyed by the fact she does Max Hp % True Damage. I'm annoyed at her ability to completely ignore AD for two whole, wholesomely cheap items, that give her SO much value. MS, AS, Crit, Burst from stacking item passives, and not to mention, her ult allows her to build this way with the supplement of AD.

Food For Thought.

JedenVojak1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe the problem lays within the two items that I've seen a lot of Vaynes build. Static and Firecannons stacking passives may be the reason why she is too strong. Fixing those two may dislodge any complaint I may have.

If not firecannon and statikk, she'll just build something else. The bonuses from those 2 items is nice, and them stacking is actually really cool (I wish more items stacked like sheen. item 3078 item 3025 item 3100 build ftw), but it won't change her priority on attack speed.

Numbers aren't final. They'd require an actual game designer to look over extensively.

But please keep in mind, I'm not annoyed by the fact she does Max Hp % True Damage. I'm annoyed at her ability to completely ignore AD for two whole, wholesomely cheap items, that give her SO much value. MS, AS, Crit, Burst from stacking item passives, and not to mention, her ult allows her to build this way with the supplement of AD.

That's kinda how she's designed though, to prioritize attack speed on-hit. The massive BotRK nerfs probably also pushed this change forward.

I think it's really cool to have champs that have non-homoginized or unique build paths. Like live Poppy's weird build of item 3078 item 3087 item 3031 item 3020 item 3135 item 3508, or old Ryzes item 3003 item 3027 item 3025 item 3110. Just building the same thing on every champion is kinda boring.

Food For Thought.

That's not food for thought. This is: http://aht.seriouseats.com/assets_c/2013/07/20130723-bacon-weave-food-lab-burger-step-by-step-26-thumb-625xauto-342462.jpg

The Lexer3 votes

To add to what you said, this would help Vayne's "identity" of being a weak laner with super scaling into late game. I like the idea

ZephyrDrake1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lexer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rakqFcBy,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-11-27T15:01:13.288+0000)

To add to what you said, this would help Vayne's "identity" of being a weak laner with super scaling into late game. I like the idea

what scaling? late game having potentially the same % damage she does now? so let's make her incredibly weak the entire game until she gets 6 items in which case she might be able to do something then? that is not "helping her identity" that is "let's take a dump on her and leave her to rot because i don't like her"

Raoul1 votes

GOOD! Cause she deserves to rot in helL!

ZephyrDrake5 votes

{quoted}

GOOD! Cause she deserves to rot in helL!

and this is why Riot doesn't listen to the community when it comes to balance as often as they should, because of people like you

Anidan5 votes

According to the boards (as a generalization, because not everyone everyone fits into generalizations), all assassins should be left to rot in some forlorn corner of Hell and tanks should rule the world. There are some pretty good arguments about why the boards shouldn't be the sole voice of balance, and people like that man above and the blatant tank bias are a good two of them.

The Lexer3 votes

Well she needs to be weak somewhere. The problem with her now is that she scales into late game while also being strong enough in early game. Think AP Ezreal before and after runeglaive. The reason RG Ezreal became so popular is because he could hit late game without being the worst champion in the game for 20 minutes. Vayne either needs to be good early OR late. Looking at the past, she has always been good late, so make nerf her early game so she needs to work for her power, while still being able to achieve her ultimate potential

ZephyrDrake2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Lexer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rakqFcBy,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2015-11-27T17:13:36.982+0000)

Well she needs to be weak somewhere. The problem with her now is that she scales into late game while also being strong enough in early game. Think AP Ezreal before and after runeglaive. The reason RG Ezreal became so popular is because he could hit late game without being the worst champion in the game for 20 minutes. Vayne either needs to be good early OR late. Looking at the past, she has always been good late, so make nerf her early game so she needs to work for her power, while still being able to achieve her ultimate potential

so the solution is make her weak until she gets 6 items? sorry but what is the point of even playing Vayne at that point then? specially when she isn't going to get any stronger than she is currently? This change isn't going to make her "good" late it's going to make her average late while making her garbage at all other stages... hell you aren't even getting 300 bonus AD with 4 items (since you are using a slot for boots and no AS item gives AD) so... she is going to end up being even WEAKER at 6 items now... wow yeah, she is going to be such a great champion. Complete garbage early for a late game that is average. Her early game is weaker now, does it need to be weaker? possibly, but making her need to wait for 6 items before she is able to do anything is stupid and unrealistic unless you make her that she is able to one shot everyone as soon as she gets 6 items

disregardable2 votes

Vaynes should have stopped starting with that build, now that they nerfed warlord's bloodlust? The sustain only from champions really isn't good enough, is it?

Also, Riot said that marksmen buying 2 crit items was intended in the pre-season.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Building two crit items first? I understand how two crit items spread throughout the game would be, but she is able to rush these non-expensive items, and get enormous value out of all the stats, despite not getting any AD until a 3rd item, which usually ends up as BorK.

Kouga1 votes

Maybe not first for everyone, for a few other Crit-ADCs you usually get an IE if you AA or a ER if you cast spells, and then get the two item 2015 items. Boom. If you started ER, get IE. If you got IE, usually go PD.

That's just some of the common patterns I've seen, we'll have to see if that stays true throughout the season. But its incredibly easy to get max Crit/CDR and the mixed Physical/Magical damage, burst, AoE is just insane.

KONO RUBICK DA4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rakqFcBy,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-11-27T05:23:15.899+0000)

Vaynes should have stopped starting with that build, now that they nerfed warlord's bloodlust? The sustain only from champions really isn't good enough, is it?

Also, Riot said that marksmen buying 2 crit items was intended in the pre-season.

problem isn't going 2 crit items, problem is skiping AD to get asap AS+ms+crit which is huge on vayne

Kog'maw's W was nerfed by adding an AD ratio so kog would need AD to get a bigger damage or he would have rushed 2 AS item and would shred everyone, meanwhile vayne doesn't have AD ratio and can rush attack speed

Wyrmblade2 votes

What about scaling off crit instead like ashe does?

skkkrt1 votes

I like this idea, but it wouldn't solve the problem of vayne players rushing item 3087 and item 3094 first. The whole idea of this post is to get vayne players to stop rushing attack speed first and building no damage, while at the same time killing your entire team. These two items have crit on them, and that would make this attack speed build even better - more attacks over time= more chance for crits=more chance for true damage to proc.

EDIT: not sure if you mean having a chance to proc silver bolts or if you mean the damage of silver bolts increasing the more crit chance you have. Either way, having the passive scale off of crit chance either means you change vayne's passive to be something similar to ashe's, or you have vaynes building as many phantom dancers as they can while still doing absurd amounts of damage.

Finn Teh Human2 votes

Holy shit people are still bitching over Vayne when there's much more annoying ADC's? Not to mention major BUFFS to others.

CenaryS2 votes

he propably got fked by a vayne,and so want her nerfed...

Slamurai Jack1 votes

This is as stupid of an idea has having Lucian's ult scale off of AS was. All it does is force her to itemize into stats she doesn't want.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Of course, because what Adc doesn't want AD....

KONO RUBICK DA3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rakqFcBy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-11-27T14:43:17.530+0000)

This is as stupid of an idea has having Lucian's ult scale off of AS was. All it does is force her to itemize into stats she doesn't want.

wait, her Q has massive ad steroid, same for her E

why kog was forced to take AD? he wants to get 5.0 attack speed

Ýones1 votes

Wtf? Vayne is so stupid champion allready with her stupid outplay mechanics and her Q and W damage is just stupid, please no.

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

Did you even read the post?

Ýones1 votes

Well... I readed the title...

This is ankward...

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

I kind of agree with you. but NO CHAMPION SHOULD HAVE BOTH % DAMAGE AND TRUE DAMAGE. its one or the other. NOT BOTH. these two things are the two most important things to AD/AA champs. and having them both is just plain broken.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

You really don't get the concept, do you. It's supposed to allow to hurt tanks as much as squishies.

The issue with Vayne is that she hurts squishies too much.

JedenVojak1 votes

You can never hurt squishes too much.

If they don't want to die, they can always build defenses.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

are you serious? there is no way to build defense against true % damage

JedenVojak2 votes

{quoted}

are you serious? there is no way to build defense against true % damage

In a vacuum, you are correct, but silver bolts is an ability which does +4% max health true damage per auto attack, it's +12% max health true damage per 3 auto attacks on the same target.

How do we counter this?

First is by not letting her 3 hit you - this can be done through positioning, raw speed, or forcing her to switch targets (like attacking her when she needs to CS or with 2 people).

Second is by bursting her down - if you one shot her, she doesn't get to sustain attacks against you.

Third and finally is through items: either by slowing her attack speed item 3143 item 3110 which will also reduce her AD damage, killing her with her attacks item 3075, or cheating death entirelyitem 3026 item 3157.

EDIT: I just remembered, there's also straight up healing, either flat healing or through regen.

In short, there is no defense against max health % true damage, but there is a defense against silver bolts.

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

lol. lol. lol. like all of that is gonna make a difference. lifesteal gets way more health than the damage thornmail does. and all of the above is just stupid.

Shrek Luigi1 votes

If you dont think a -30% aspd debuff on Vayne is gonna make a difference then you have no right to make any criticism about her, noob

MunchCrunchLunch1 votes

yeah but why don't other adcs have that? are you serious with that argument?. whats the point of having tanks then against vayne?

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

PLS no more true damage on vayne. It's already impossible to itemize against, I dont' want to play a tank against her already with the 12% I dont' want to deal with a 6 item vayne who is hitting me for 16% of my max hp as true damage plus all the normal damage of an adc. If you make it scale, it should be capped at a certain value probably 12%.

MilfHuntUnitXJ91 votes

learn to read.

RisenDarkKnight1 votes

Vayne with 400 bonus ad with this model (she gets 70 bonus ad from her ult) would do 14% max hp true damage instead of the 12% on live. You can get (70 from ult, 75 from BT, 75 from Mercurial, 65 from IE, 65 from Essence Reaver, 30 from Red Pot, and 40 from baron + 6% from dragon = almost 450 bonus ad). Sure that's a very late game scenario, but that's not fair to other adcs or to tanks who can't live very long against that regardless of items, while other marksmen struggle to kill a 6 item tank. I think 12% of max hp is enough, as she was fine with 8% for several seasons.

Sure this idea would make her mid game weaker if she stacked attack speed, but encouraging her to build ad doesn't really nerf her much as she'll still do tons of damage to everyone, especially squishies. I think vayne is fineish at the moment, but the last thing I'd want to do is change her in such a way that she melts tanks even faster when she has 6 items. It's dumb when you have a tristana who takes a long time to kill a sejuani, while vayne kills a 6 item malphite in 3 seconds. I'm not saying tanks should be invicible, just that even more max hp true damage isn't a good idea, especially when she gets it for having even more ad on each of her autos that already do a large % of the targets hp on each one already. Yeah she may have slightly less attack speed, but a 6 item build can cover both a lot of AD and AS

Delphinium1 votes

Gosu gonna cry all season long

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Whats a Goku?

Llanite1 votes

Let me point out a fact that, despite tons of texts, you did not provide the context why you think this is a good chance.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I thought the context was pretty clear. It's to limit her ability to rush two extremely cheap items, and to out damage other carries with just AS/Crit/MS and burst damage from two separate sources of magic damage.

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