The CD of her spears would start AFTER her spear's flight has ended, instead of right when it starts. This would punish Nid's for not hitting spears on anything by like what? 2 or 3 seconds more?
Edit: (Good Idea is Good Idea) If Nid hits someone, I'd assume mainly champs, she get a small CD reduction also based on the range of the Javelin. Say 0 (within AA range) to 5 seconds (At max range).
stokastic55 votesMake the cooldown 15-20 seconds at max rank, but have it refund 75% on hit. Punish misses, reward hits.
Ace Access 8 votesand fix the hitbox size
junglerboy1624 votesThere is nothing wrong with the hitbox, they fixed that when they reworked her at the end of last season.
Abyssphere3 votesThere is nothing wrong with the hitbox, they fixed that when they reworked her at the end of last season.
Exactly. I actually think Javelin Toss has one of the few perfectly accurate hitboxes in the game.
AbsoluteSadman1 votesIf not the only one, i cant tell you how many shots have hit/miss while doing the exact opposite art wise.
chriserit7 votesdon't know if it is part of the hitbox problem or whatelse but there is still the problem that sometimes randomly go through minions https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLMxn3IXFlg - to give you an example
Artilleryfrost1 voteswasnt really a spear through a minion just was the difference between the kat hitbox and the minion hit box there
Hyrum Graff27 votesThis is extreme, but a good idea, I think. Just add 2-3 seconds to the cooldown, and make it refund 2-3 seconds on hit.
Edit: There's also room to play around with this if it hits her too hard. For example, adding 2-3 seconds on the cooldown but making it refund 4-5 seconds on it.
Chaotic Reks2 votesit's what they did with 
, dunno why they shouldn't do it with nid
1st HanarSpectre2 votes[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FvEX6qEg,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2015-04-03T22:40:39.251+0000)
it's what they did with
Same reason they aren't doing it to Xerath or Jayce. Poke champions have spells they can use to poke. Imagine that. What a novel concept.
SleepyLionCub6 votes[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FvEX6qEg,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2015-04-04T00:09:10.955+0000)
Same reason they aren't doing it to Xerath or Jayce. Poke champions have spells they can use to poke. Imagine that. What a novel concept.
if nid is a poke champion, why is her all in better than most assassins.
1st HanarSpectre3 votesif nid is a poke champion, why is her all in better than most assassins.
It's not. She requires to hit spears for her damage to be relevant. All other assassins will out damage her unless she hit them with a spear first, hence why champion that can all in Nidalee like Riven and Zed and whatnot completely dumpster her.
SleepyLionCub5 votes[{quoted}](name=1st HanarSpectre,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FvEX6qEg,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-04-04T00:16:07.153+0000)
It's not. She requires to hit spears for her damage to be relevant. All other assassins will out damage her unless she hit them with a spear first, hence why champion that can all in Nidalee like Riven and Zed and whatnot completely dumpster her.
Just hit 1 spear at ANY range, and then her all in becomes better than most assassins.
1st HanarSpectre5 votesJust hit 1 spear at ANY range, and then her all in becomes better than most assassins.
No? Just about all assassin will straight up kill you in a 1v1 if you try to all in them after a close range spear. Clearly, you have no fucking idea what you are talking about, you're just jumping on the fotm hate wagon. Nidalee is not an all in champion. She pokes you with spears, and jumps on you to wittle you down then back away to heal and poke you some more until you are low enough to be killed.
Earl Eulrich5 votesthough this wouldn´t fix the problem that 1 hit takes too much hp off of important Champions before a fight can even break out. I´d rather see them just nerf the dmg and maybe add a bonus for consecutive hits on the same target.
Tylo Snoyer2 votesIt's her form of engage, if she wasn't able to chunk off huge chunks of health, when would she be able to engage?
AbsoluteSadman3 votesAfter she wittles you down, rather than just flat out nuking your hp then jumping in to nuke the other half
Kuroi862 votes1 hit takes too much hp off of important Champions before a fight can even break out.
This is what tanks are for.
add a bonus for consecutive hits on the same target.
Eh, it's a slow moving, narrow skill shot. If it were something like Varus Q or still had a hit box like Morgana Q, I could see that, but something like that would be nigh unnoticed as it would be impossible to hit.
DrNova7 votesIts not slow moving at all. Especially when they can often come flying from outside vision range, giving you even less time to react
Kuroi861 votesCompared to say Varus Q, it's slow.
But the main point is it's a narrow skill shot.
I find the idea of upping the cooldown with a refund on champ hit to be the best idea.
The idea that her Q deals low damage but ramps up as you hit it, that means you WANT her to spam her spear, which sounds a bit backwards.
MakersF1 votesThresh hook does this too. Totally agree
I hate em3 votesI don't know if you know how hard it is too hit a spear. It does a hell of a lot of damage when it does, but it's such a small hitbox
Alpha Gray17 votesThe Spear hurts, but it's super iconic to Nidalee and her only real way of exposing her power in a one on one situation. You're not exactly going to put down a Bushwhack mid combat and expect to trigger a Hunt. If you're not CC'd it's not the hardest thing in the world to dodge. Can I do it? No, not very well, but that's my problem more than anyone else's.
Thing is, Nidalee is an assassin, and all assassins are painful when they have the jump on you along with someone that enables their pattern, or if they've positioned or found an opportunity to exploit their pattern to the fullest (like using wall cover to hide the spear's flight to maximize the damage). The Nuclear tipped poke spears of doom are gone, it's just now when you do take a 250 magic damage spear to the back of the head, you're next fear is of outright exploding from an AP, Non-Stealth Rengar instead of simply sighing and having to go back to base.
I would guess that problem with the spears isn't so much the spears, it's that she maintains a poke pattern along with her with assassination and support patterns.
So, to me, she should probably have a primary pattern and a fallback pattern to be healthy, and I'd rather her primary pattern was assassination (as it is in live) and poke was her fallback pattern. Right now, though, poke is just what she winds up doing because she's so good at it, due to probably the cooldown on Spear. Except she's also good at sustaining a siege because of her support-light pattern in her heal, so counterpoke doesn't have as much of an effect.
Things I would do, personally, is increase the general cooldown on Javelin Toss to 9 seconds. With max CDR, she's throwing it once every 5.4 seconds, which achieves roughly what the reverse Varus treatment you've described would do as well. But there's also an opportunity to do a +10/-10 thing here. Nerfed cooldown, sure, but give Swipe a Hunt bonus to reduce it. Swipe Hunt Bonus: Reduces the cooldown of Javelin Toss by 33%. So at level 3, with Q, W, and E in play, she can JT a target, Pounce them and swipe them so that she has a JT ready again if she needs to re-engage like she currently does on live.
I'd also personally get rid of her heal alltogether and give it a Spell Vamp / Lifesteal paradigm, which encourages fighting rather than jumping out and burst healing. Primal Surge: Nidalee evokes the spirit of the cougar, granting an allied champion Lifesteal, Spell Vamp, and bonus attack speed for 5 seconds. If Nidalee uses Primal Surge on herself, her next attack triggers a Hunt. I don't think the Heal is abusive, I Just don't think it fits at all and think it's an opportunity to give her power in other ways. Functionally speaking, if she gets a full Hunt combo off on an enemy with the Spell Vamp and Lifesteal, she'd probably heal for as much or more than her current heal, but at least then she has to spend the time attacking.
I mean, what aspect of a predatory cat heals people? Ain't no one I know isn't allergic to cats. They're the opposite of health.
[[ P.S. Primal Surge granting Spell Vamp / Lifesteal is also a reference to the old summoner spell Surge and the passive on 
, so... y'know. I'm basically super clever ]]
Kitten of Evil11 votesYeah, I think you described the problem well -- she's got a bit too much of everything: a heal, very strong poke (thankfully not as strong as it used to be), an execute, and free, spammable mobility.
Tylo Snoyer6 votesWhich allows her to overplay the game. She can play support, mid, or jungle. She could even top lane if her team comp allowed for it. Her abilities give her too much versatility and thus give her somewhat of an identity crisis. Maybe she'll see a total revamp and revisit like 
and 
?
Kitten of Evil4 votesThey already reworked her once. Her cougar form used to be unavailable until level 6, her spears did even more damage (with a wider hitbox too), and her traps applied an armor/MR shred.
Narasimha1 votesTrist had a pretty soft rework. The only major change was her E, and how her other abilities interacted with it.
Earl Eulrich1 votes+her passive range got cut + her as per lvl got cut + ap trists burst got cut...
all in all they changed her from a late-game-hypercarry to a fast-push-carry, pretty much the only alternative to caitlyn in that category. but yea, the ability changes had been fairly minor.
Narasimha1 votesAll of those are number changes. A rework implies a shift in how you play the champion through a difference in their abilities. If everything changed except her E, then her playstyle wouldn't have really been different, just harder. It was because of the E that it was considered a 'rework'/
ModAcademy Kayn2 votesPersonally I'm glad they gutted AP trist. Freaking point and click damage till low, then jump and ult. Bugged the S**t out of me.
gnuoy133 votesI think you hit it just right I've recently played Nidalee for the first time and her spears are quite op. Yes she is enjoyable to play but its very hard to counter her when playing against her. I think the idea about getting rid of her heal and replacing it with some sort of spell vamp/life steal on hit ability is a very good idea.
MacbethAndCheese1 votesLove this so much
Sooko9 votesOr give her cougar abilities mana cost. Or make spears cost more the more they are spammed. Or compensate her for DFG removal.
Its like playing against a long range Blitzcrank with more safety, shorter cooldowns, sustain and more mobility. And good luck once she gets a tear in lane, because we all know how much Riot loves both poke and sustain built in one champion (
yeah, definitely Riot's favorite champion)
She is definitely one of my least favorite champions by now. I mean, with Tryndamere you can still break him pretty hard with a good tank or cooperation, but Nida? Nah, no matter what, she always becomes viable in another role, just like Fizz, because of their stupid kits in general. Would it be asking too much for a couple of patches with them dumpstered next to Evelynn and Bard? There is still to come a day when she is actually Tier 3 anywhere.
wonu1 votescan u like think of it as irl no human irl tho do big fuckin cats give mana NO do big cats scratch people YAS-uo do big cats pounce on people YAS-uo do big cats eat too much catnip and go haywire on you MAybe
RasCaelestis5 votesSo... Do humans IRL use mana? Because I've never seen anyone use either mana or actual magic. I've also never seen a human turn into a cougar (apart from my aunt, but wrong kind of cougar...).
I don't know if your post is a reference to something, but it makes no sense either way.
wonu1 votes"no human irl tho" wat do u think dat means
And it's a way I type to my friends, trying to be friendly.
RasCaelestis1 votesI don't really know what you mean. But you implied that while big cats do not use mana, humans do. I may have misunderstood that, but your post -while amusing- is not easy to read.
What I mean is this: In her human form, Nidalee uses mana. In her cat form she does not. In real life, humans do not use mana, neither do cats. Why does only human Nidalee use mana? If it applies to one, it should apply to both or neither.
CudyDarkyz3 votesMy doggy has mana, he runs around a table for 5 mins then goes to sleep for 10 mins to regen his mana for his Devastating Charge.
wonu1 votesI meant not thinking about the human form, just the cat form.
I Main Swain2 votesThe way you worded your post is kinda hard to follow, its actually pretty confusing, to me at least :O
The Soulforged3 votescan u like think of it as irl no human irl tho do big fuckin cats give mana NO do big cats scratch people YAS-uo do big cats pounce on people YAS-uo do big cats eat too much catnip and go haywire on you MAybe
Does throwing a spear take magical prowess?
Spacesuit Spiff7 votesSo she's punished for landing them at max range? As much as I want her nerfed, this is kinda silly.
ModAcademy Kayn1 votesHaha, I actually didn't think about that. That's a good point.
Gati2 votesHow bout if her spear hits the CD is reduced by however long it traveled (Max range refunds 2-3 seconds??)
brad2 votesnid spears lose 5% damage down to a 50% cap when they miss, and gain 5% damage up to a 135% cap when they land, consecutively
over time the damage gradually returns to 100%, and i mean gradually, like a minute for every 5%
theres your fucking punishment
Tylo Snoyer1 votesThen there's no reward? She should be able to cap at 150% on the top end for an accuracy reward.
Svddenly5 votesBut Nid doesn't need more damage on her spears so... Don't implement his idea at all.
CubedJustice2 votesI have a way better idea to balance her. Make it so that her spears, or, javelins, sorry Phreak, are actually visible all the time.
coppinslinger2 votesNid's damage and poke is fine, it's just that it doesn't provide significant counterplay. If you think of Ziggs or Xerath poking you at tower, you know that they are immobile, and if you have the ability to all-in or flank them, you know you'll be able to get on their face and burst them. Nidalee, however, has no commitment when she throws a spear to poke you. If you even show the slightest intention of trying to turn it around on her, she can just pounce away for days (even over some walls) and heal herself back-up if you manage to hit her once or twice. NIDALEE decides UNILATERALLY when she wants to take the all-in, instead of that decisions being determined by the actions of both teams.
That's nid's only problem, too much safety.
On Your Side1 votesI support this idea 100% because it's a nerf to Nidalee without actually nerfing her. It just makes her less effective in the hands of bad players while unchanged in the hands of a good player. After all, it's not Nidalee hitting a well placed spear that's really pissing players off, it's the fact that she gets to keep throwing them relentlessly until one finally lands.