Would it be too much to give LeBlanc a Mana Cost on her ult?

ModAcademy Kayn·Mar 21, 2015·155 votes·6,447 views

Title^ Can something that power-ful and versatile really need to be mana free?

Edit: Jeez I go to umpire a softball game for 3 hours and this happens. Neat.

86 Comments

JunkοMar 21, 201515 votes

It used to be 100/50/0 or something like that, but she was considered weak even with her silence on Q

KaisadiIIaMar 21, 201529 votes

When mobility doesn't meant that much, and tanky picks were really popular at all positions (excepting ADC, of course), she was nearly useless in almost every team composition.

LeBlanc is not op, just she excels at the current meta.

Poorly DressedMar 21, 201512 votes

{quoted}

When mobility doesn't meant that much, and tanky picks were really popular at all positions (excepting ADC, of course), she was nearly useless in almost every team composition.

LeBlanc is not op, just she excels at the current meta.

But as soon as other champs excel at the current meta, they get nerfed instantly - yeah right :D

manbearswineMar 21, 20154 votes

{quoted}

When mobility doesn't meant that much, and tanky picks were really popular at all positions (excepting ADC, of course), she was nearly useless in almost every team composition.

LeBlanc is not op, just she excels at the current meta.

Well the meta is the way it is because it's built around op picks,so no,le blanc doesn't excel at the current meta(annie and janna do,as they are reactions to hyper mobile picks) she defines the current meta with how stupidly op she is.

KaisadiIIaMar 21, 20156 votes

It is not. The meta tries its hardest to find the best way to win a game. Meta has not built around LeBlanc, LeBlanc is just at the top in the current state of the meta. The meta will continue changing (if RIOT stops with their meta-enforcing policy they adopted these last two years), and sooner or later, LeBlanc will not be considered strong. As I said before, LeBlanc was considered trash-tier at season 3, even when they reworked her and she still had a silence and a DFG.

Also, people only play LeBlanc because she's played at LCS. Most of them have no idea what are they doing.

doubleguacMar 21, 20156 votes

Regardless of whether or not she's OP, I find her current play pattern incredibly annoying and (to use some Riot jargon) anti-fun.

Her dash means she doesn't have to commit to anything. Between her E and her passive, she's practically impossible to focus in team fights, unless you manage to lock her down with CC (which is hard in and of itself, since she's so mobile, and most CC is tied to skill shots).

Also, let's keep in mind that she's had several large buffs to her mobility and general slipperiness since the days when she had her silence and she was still considered underpowered.

straight4freeMar 22, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Regardless of whether or not she's OP, I find her current play pattern incredibly annoying and (to use some Riot jargon) anti-fun.

Her dash means she doesn't have to commit to anything. Between her E and her passive, she's practically impossible to focus in team fights, unless you manage to lock her down with CC (which is hard in and of itself, since she's so mobile, and most CC is tied to skill shots).

Also, let's keep in mind that she's had several large buffs to her mobility and general slipperiness since the days when she had her silence and she was still considered underpowered.

CC her after she jumps.

Kitten of EvilMar 22, 20152 votes

You'd have to CC her for 4 seconds (which is longer than any CC ability in the game, unless I'm mistaken). Otherwise she can just W back when it wears off, since it has a 4 second window and she's already dumped her whole combo on you in half a second.

GooberpMar 22, 20156 votes

Kill her. She's one of the squishiest champions in the game; proper focus makes her explode in whatever CC you throw on her after her jump.

Unless you mean you're trying to duel an assassin.

Kitten of EvilMar 22, 20152 votes

Not trying to duel an assassin, just trying to CS in lane.

straight4freeMar 22, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ave6IM71,comment-id=00000000000400000001,timestamp=2015-03-22T06:20:46.074+0000)

You'd have to CC her for 4 seconds (which is longer than any CC ability in the game, unless I'm mistaken). Otherwise she can just W back when it wears off, since it has a 4 second window and she's already dumped her whole combo on you in half a second.

Are you saying that you're alone? You deserve what you get if you're alone, and if you're not, CC her once she jumps, you know where she is going back to, and kill her.

She's not as invincible as you think.

Kitten of EvilMar 23, 20151 votes

If you're in lane, you are alone. And starting at level 2 she can chunk you down fast. I don't think she's invincible. She's just way too mobile and has way too reliable of damage (point-and-click), in addition to being super safe because she has a big time window to return to her pad.

straight4freeMar 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ave6IM71,comment-id=0000000000040000000100010000,timestamp=2015-03-23T00:29:06.705+0000)

If you're in lane, you are alone. And starting at level 2 she can chunk you down fast. I don't think she's invincible. She's just way too mobile and has way too reliable of damage (point-and-click), in addition to being super safe because she has a big time window to return to her pad.

Early game, she is either Maxing Q or W. If she is maxing Q, she can poke you but her waveclear is atrocious. Take advantage of this. If she is maxing W, she has very low damage once W is on cooldown and it is exceedingly difficult to attack you through minions. Take advantage of this.

I'm not saying I think LeBlanc is a totally fair champion, but she is one who preys on people's reluctance to counter her when they can.

ShinjusukeMar 21, 201514 votes

Right, so we just wait for a year and a half rather than fixing the problem.

Not to mention Leblanc's kit is just as cancerous and infuriating as old Kassadin's was (gee, I wonder if it's because she's essentially a fucking clone of Kassadin).

Either way, she needs work. Doesn't have to be a nerf, necessarily, but whether she "excels in the meta" or not, her kit is badly designed and shouldn't exist as it is.

Hinagiku33Mar 22, 20152 votes

I must strongly disagree.

If Leblanc's kit works but another champ's kit doesn't...why is our only option to make the functioning kit stop functioning?

Some champs are just fine but do not bring what is needed in the current meta so they go underplayed. Some champs bring too much or just have numbers high enough to be good even when the meta doesn't favor them. And some champs are just fine but bring exactly what is needed and feel overwhelming if you are playing sub-optimal champs against them.

I feel Leblanc's "problems" are that her opposition got nerfed, mana regen got nerfed (forcing mages with poor trading ot have to get in close), and early MR got nerfed (champs that could start with Null Magic Mantle used to hose her). Also people refuse to do things like play bruisers mid - I remember we practically invalidated Leblanc mid way back by doing that.

I'm not opposed to giving Leblanc's ult a mana cost again, but she still needs to function.

LankPantsMar 21, 20152 votes

and tanky picks were really popular at all positions (excepting ADC, of course)

Oddly enough there were times when tanky picks were popular across the board, even in the ADC position. For a little while in S2 almost every bot lane was Urgot VS Graves.

A Miss FortuneMar 21, 20155 votes

Agreed, Leblanc is primarily strong in nuking squishy targets. The current meta is plenty of squishy opponents. You can't nerf a champion entirely based on the meta and how you can't counter them because "Farming under turret is too difficult" which is the primary excuse on why a Leblanc is fed in laning phase against Akali at 5 minutes.

KaisadiIIaMar 22, 20154 votes

+1. You are completely right.

When the meta changes and, for example, Malzahar or Swain becomes FotM, people will start asking for nerfs and, the same people that claimed LeBlanc was OP, will ask for buffs for LeBlanc because she can't do nothing against popular mids. It has been the same for the last three years.

ParessMar 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

When mobility doesn't meant that much, and tanky picks were really popular at all positions (excepting ADC, of course), she was nearly useless in almost every team composition.

LeBlanc is not op, just she excels at the current meta.

she has op mobility.

I don't care about her damages, but the things i hate about her is her ability to go everywhere she wants with low manacost, low CD and just in case, the possibility to kite. I don't count how many times she escaped to an entire team.

2 much sauuuceMar 23, 20151 votes

Low mana costs? LOL

I JUST bought her last week and have been practicing her in bot matches. I go OOM after a full spell rotation usually and then spend 30 seconds regening enough mana to try to kill a bot again. Her ultimate is zero cost, but it's not like it is some new ability. It is one of her basic abilities just a little bit stronger.

She goes OOM easily and if she doesn't get a kill she can be severely punished for a long time afterwards. Hell I think her max mana pool at lvl 18 is only barely over 1k.

I don't think of her as a problem. She is a much healthier assassin than Zed.

I Main SwainMar 22, 20153 votes

personally, I think she has too much power. I'd type it all out right now but im really lazy. long story short, her w I think is way too powerful and I think that if veigar's q should be a skill shot you can bet your anus that hers should be

BorblandMar 23, 20151 votes

Tanky picks at all positions ? Tanky picks were not popular at mid, Mordekaiser at best, and he gets kited by LeBlanc all day.

I'm here since s2, and LeBlanc always was a fairly common pick, I found her OP since the first time I met her (Along with AP Master Yi)

KaisadiIIaMar 23, 20151 votes

I'm here since s2 too, and LeBlanc was never ever seen in a game. In fact, you'll remember they reworked her entirely because she was considered too weak. Things like Cho'Gath mid weren't uncommon (in fact 2, I remember at s3 Jarvan IV, Lee Sin and even Malphite being popular mid picks for a short time) Diana was popular too and she had no problem fighting LeBlanc, and let's not talk about Jayce and Kha'Zix. Every single game had a mid Jayce or Kha'Zix, and both were good against LeBlanc.

Her ultimate were weaker than now and it costed 100 mana each time, so it wasn't worth it to spam it like you can do now.

Unfortunately I can't find pick ratios from 2012/2013, if I find them somewhere I'll post them here.

edit:

This page talks about Patch 3.9, and mention's LeBlanc pick rate/win rate at that time (Pick Rate: 2.33% –>3.06%, Win Rate: 44.07% –>43.43%)
This page is dated at September 2012, it talks about the "worst" champions in the game, mentioning LeBlanc and literally saying things like "high elo players doesn't even consider LeBlanc, she's too easy to deal with".

As I said, she's a gimmicky champion that excels at current meta. She was considered trash-tier long time ago. In fact (3), I remember when I started playing the game, I liked LeBlanc, but my friends that had more experience told me not to play her, because she was useless late game even if she has 30 kills. And they were right, I realized it the hard way.

Curling VeigarMar 21, 20157 votes

She'd be trash if that happened.

ModAcademy KaynMar 21, 20156 votes

At Level 6 her full combo costs 220 mana. I'd hardly say giving her ult a mana cost would break her. Might actually allow people to retaliate after/if they survive her burst.

Penguin EclipseMar 21, 20158 votes

{quoted}

At Level 6 her full combo costs 220 mana. I'd hardly say giving her ult a mana cost would break her. Might actually allow people to retaliate after/if they survive her burst.

Fortunately or unfortunately, it would do no such thing. An opponents ability to retaliate is not going to be affected by giving her ult a mana cost as the damage, CD, and combo order will remain unchanged. The only thing that would really be changed by this is that she would be forced into more mana issues. Considering most of her assassin counter parts are manaless this would harm her directly. But it wouldn't address the issues that tend to be deemed unhealthy.

tl:dr: It would nerf her and make her weaker. But it wouldn't fix any of her problems and is most likely the reason this has not been changed.

DivewingMar 22, 20151 votes

It'd be the same as Talon's nerf, all his silence did was make his lane matchups really annoying, he still 100-0s adcs in 0.75 seconds. PROBLEM SOLVED RIGHT RITO.

SouL1essMar 23, 20151 votes

He can't 100-0 in 0.75 seconds (unless you are doing a critical hit build, which is not viable on SR)

Please actually play Talon before speaking

DivewingMar 24, 20151 votes

Oh that's just precious, i do play talon, so that means 1 of 2 things: you dont, or you have never been good enough to kill someone in less than a second. Don't argue with me, I've done it plenty of times. Build is: item 3031 item 3074 item 3142 item 3117 item 3035 and then situational, usually item 3071 http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/vaporas-guide-to-talon-336414 I suggest you read this

SouL1essMar 24, 20151 votes

I've done it plenty of times.

Me too.

From a IE double crit.

But if you don't do crit and actually have to hit both parts of rake and both parts of ult to kill someone, it isn't within one second. It's really fast, but still not within one second.

and I read that already...that guide was out 3 years ago...

Yuki AkumaMar 21, 20156 votes

Nidalee

Jarrito232Mar 21, 20155 votes

LeBlanc really isn't that op. Her mana costs are high so she can only use her combos to kill a champ early game. Plus with this new tank meta coming in, her viability isn't going to be that present.

gubigubiMar 21, 20154 votes

LeBlanc doesn't need a nerf she isn't that strong imo Prove to me other wise with actual facts

FourVsFiveMar 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

LeBlanc doesn't need a nerf she isn't that strong imo Prove to me other wise with actual facts

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/mindlessphoto/1_zpshxdtp6y7.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn20/mindlessphoto/2_zpsbrxfyhs5.jpg

a picture says a 1000 words.

0GameDos0Mar 21, 20152 votes

lol the enemy team was just garbage look at their scores i played lb before and the only game i was able to have so much kills was when the enemy would never group up and i could easily kill them solo one after the other

Cerulean LaserMar 22, 20152 votes

Who even lets her get away with that many kills seeing how her kit works.

The SoulforgedMar 21, 20154 votes

If we continue to give her these small nerfs, she'll become trash at some point.

ThePlasticSporkMar 21, 20153 votes

Meh. If you ask me, LeBlanc should just be reworked.

Pretty much everybody agrees that LeBlanc is insanely frustrating for anyone that isn't the LeBlanc player. She has up to 4 fairly long dashes that she can cast in the timespan of less than a second, and her W has a pretty low cooldown for a double dash as well. I do believe Kassadin was reworked because of how stupid it was that a champion could project the threat of "get within 1000 units of me and kiss most of your health bar goodbye," and LeBlanc really isn't any different. Furthermore, her and Kassadin share the fact that 90% of the time, when a LeBlanc or Kassadin player dies, they had to have made some kind of massive mistake because of the huge amount of safety that their mobility affords them.

This is only further amplified by LeBlanc's current winrate - despite it being on the lower side of things, she still attracts a huge number bans just because of how frustrating and obnoxious she is to play against.

blubabbyMar 21, 20153 votes

The problem with this cycle of nerfs and buffs if it happens (and it's evidently happening) is that the meta either never shifts (took long enough for tanky champions to come back) or it just shifts to whatever just rose to the top now that we brought down whoever. We all remember when everyone was tankier and Leblanc was trash. As ShinobuElveszett (curse your name) said, she simply excels in the current meta. Should we nerf her? No, just let the meta evolve on its own because eventually someone higher up will realise x or y champion excels against the current meta and then we'll have a meta shift and then we'll be circlejerking about another stupid champion. This happens every season, every god damn season.

DigitalityMar 21, 20153 votes

Equip an MR rune page and you'll be laughing so hard at her you won't be able to bitch anymore.

CindikleMar 21, 20153 votes

Or we can give her back the weakness she had at one time. Which was that she had to level Q first. Because her R's damage was based on the skill's rank.

When this was the case if she missed procing the second part of Q her damage was hurt. (Mobility, CC and such would help counter this). Her wavelcear was trash since she couldn't rank W first. Making a champion who can push lane or farm safely a counter to her. Since she didn't rank W first her escape was also on a longer cooldown for most of the game till she got to rank it more. This made her much less mobile mid game when she roams. Failing to combo and having to W back meant waiting a long cooldown. Being squishy meant that she can't just stay in the fight.

Lower the second part of her Q's damage at the early levels. Something like 20/40/60/80/100% damage of the first Q. It deals 110 damage at rank one. Sure it requires procing. But she's not only champion like that. It's not like it's mana intensive to use either.

Make her W deal 40/55/70/85/100% damage to minions.

Now she actually has to make a choice in what to rank first. Q for poke/damage W for wavelcear/mobility E will stay a one point wonder R will not share in these effects.

Give her 2nd mimic Q the silence back. As she will for sure become olafed by these changes. If still too much, lower the reduction on Q procs.

Realm DownMar 22, 20153 votes

Leblanc isn't op. doesn't need a nerf, isn't broken, etc. She's actually very squishy and doesn't do all that much damage if you don't feed her. Equal skill considered you shouldn't lose to a leblanc just because she's leblanc unless she somehow directly counters your kit.

Call Me NanaMar 22, 20153 votes

I love QQ Leblanc threads.

LB isn't op by any means, and she had a cost to her ultimate at one time but they removed that because they took away her silence.

Push LB into tower -> force her to use abilities to farm --> no damage to you.

'OMG LB'S gonna jump at me? Heaven forbid I HEAVY CC HER.'

4nth0l0gyMar 21, 20152 votes

I think the only realistic fix for her is to reduce her absurd amounts of mobility. Unfortunately, that also sort of erases her identity.

junglerboy16Mar 21, 20152 votes

Even if it is only a little bit, it still should. Having a really short cooldown and no cost means it is excessively hard to catch her out unless she makes a mistake, which is problematic whether she is strong or not.

ZahzMar 22, 20152 votes

Leblanc only does one thing and thats assassintate squishies. She doesnt split push or provide utility or take objectives. It only makes sense that as a pretty one dimensional champ she has to do that one thing very well. And if you take away to much you are gonna see this kamikaze champ that just trades 1 for 1 over and over again

ModKagenoOuMar 21, 20151 votes

they are already considering bringing down her scaling on pbe, it hurt her game play ALOT tho so idk, idk how the numbers turned out but she FELT alot weaker atleast lol

ModAcademy KaynMar 22, 20151 votes

Well her ult damage isn't the problem IMO. Its that she can 1/5 your health level 1.

ZGM DazzlingMar 22, 20151 votes

Her mana costs are ALREADY extremely high raising them would just make here less fun to play but wont change her gameplay at all, except maybe running out of mana mid team fights but thats really not the problem, people can work around mana. They are lowering her damage on her ult on the pbe so maybe that will do the trick i mean i'm a Leblanc main and i know that damage is insane.

ModAcademy KaynMar 22, 20153 votes

IMO, LeBlanc is no fun to play against. But this is not the thread for that.

And god do I know how LeBlancs work around Mana. I faced a Leblanc who in order got Fiendish Codex-Sorcery Boots- and then she bought a Forbidden Icon. I highly disagree that "Mana gating" is one of LeBlanc's weaknesses since all she needs to do is wait, since a Q-W combo is only worth 130 mana, which is pretty damn low for damage output.