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Weird idea for balancing Zoe without removing any of her maximum output potential

Altiverse··17 votes·7,666 views

Firstly, I have to admit, yes I'm a Zoe player. I was diagnosed with Ligma last week from fourth-dimensional intersections of yinger and yangerons, and my doctor says my condition is quite gloomy. I'll do my best to play Zoe less from now on, because as I've heard Ligma is contagious. But in all seriousness, I like playing her because of her character more than her gameplay. I still would if she ever received a full rework as well.

Off to the point, Zoe is probably not broken in terms of statistics (50% w/r right now), but she feels very unfair to play against, and I feel like sometimes Riot has double standarts towards these cases (why is Azir sitting in the gutter because he's too well rounded at the hands of a skilled player, while Yasuo is getting compensation buffs the second an indirect nerf is on the horizon? This extends to Zoe's state as well). So since a lot of people are asking for a nerf, and she does have a nerf on the PBE to her Passive and W, and I don't really see how it will solve anything regarding the complaints towards Zoe - namely being at the receiving end of her Q and E, which are completely reliant on the Zoe player rather than her opponents... I've come up with an idea.

Thus, my suggestion: Zoe's opponents should be able to displace Zoe during her Portal Jump with any damage source functioning as a slight knockback. Consequently, her Q's aim should be displaced by the same amount Zoe is currently displaced from her Portal Jump's [target] location.

In other words, while Zoe is on her Portal, any damage taken should knock her back slightly, while still allowing her to cast spells/auto normally. Obviously, this can be applied multiple times with multiple damage instances during a single Portal Jump. Her Q's aim will be knocked off just as Zoe is, so if you're on Zoe's right and you auto attacked her, knocking her to the left of her portal, her Q will be knocked to the left as well.

This isn't really gamebreaking since Zoe always moves back to the same location after Portal Jump ends, and this doesn't change it. The knockback only affects Zoe's temporary position. It also feels like it fits her thematically since she's portal jumping between dimensions and stuff so it's granted she is unstable and weird movements will happen if she's attacked.

This allows enemies to actually counteract for Zoe's actions. Good Zoe players will still be able to close the gap of the Q's changed trajectory by aiming at the estimated difference considering the enemy's position, but that's going to be hard. Very hard, I suppose. In teamfights, allies that are closer to the enemy Zoe will be able to throw her aim off while she's trying to snipe off your backline. Basically, more active counterplay, while allowing Zoe to still have success if she wins at the mind games of estimating how much she will be knocked away and from what position.

Sorry this turned out to be more lengthy than what I expected, Welp. Thoughts?

25 Comments

Tormentula12 votes

Remove her W random spells and items from minions. Zoe shouldn't win trades just because she has ignite and exhaust.

Aseraan6 votes

Delet her.

Now thats an interesting and well-thought idea.

Boulderox6 votes

The problem with zoe is her kit was designed in a manner that riot said themselves wasn't healthy in the past. Nidalee mid used to be a thing, and all she did was throw spears, cougar, and jump away, as before she had a mini rework that made her more cougar form focus, the spear damage was calculated by how far it was from nidalee when it hit instead of where it was thrown from which i believe is the case (could be wrong). They didn't like the idea that spamming one ability in lane wasn't a good mechanic and pretty sure that led to the mini rework she got. While Zoe's entire schtick is to lob Q's left and right

Secondly, in the past they removed silences from a few mid laners Kassadin Talon & Leblanc because it wasn't healthy for you to be 100-0 without the ability to fight back, in the case of these, at the time powerful assassin champions. Meanwhile Zoe bubble is the ticking time bomb until you get chunked/killed with no way to interact with it. Pair that with no indication that her bubble is coming for you from fog, like Zac Kayn Shaco (but not limited to) etc... it is allowed.

Then they decide to buff the W to dumb levels, where now Electrocute, along with the buffs to summoner 14, her W bubbles, and the enhanced AA that is stupidly wrapped in on one summoner spell cast that she can pick up for free...

TLDR: she epitomizes spammy high damage abilities that paired with her E make very little counterplay to avoiding her damage, and if you dodge EVERYTHING, her free summoner 14 W & electrocute will kill you anyways.

Krully1 votes

it was an absolutely stupid idea of a skill, her w, and due to this she'll never be fair with the rng involved with it.

Weiss Guertena1 votes

Nidalee was much more flawed tho, since her spears had much bigger range and didn't require you to hit another ability before or AA after to get the full damage. You could literally just blindly spam spears the entire game and win on the basis on that - hell, there were even LCS games won off a 4 second cooldown spears blindly thrown into FoW and luckily hitting someone whom they didn't even know was there. Can you carry a game with Zoe by just lobbing Q left and right, without using your passive, your E, or your R in an offensive manner?

And on the second point, Silences on those 3 champions had one thing in common: they were all point and click. Where with Zoe you can sidestep, bodyblock or use minions as a shield in lane, those 3 didn't care about those. If you were in their effective range, you were silenced with nothing you could do about it and most likely killed before the silence wore off. Not to mention that with those three being assassins, their silence was paired up with high mobility. If you existed within half a screen of LB or Kassadin, you'd get deleted by them blinking and then throwing their PnC silence nuke from the distance Zoe can only hope to achieve with the trickiest of wall shots. Oh, and they could blink away after killing or failing to do so too.

Not saying Zoe needs changes, but comparing her to those is just ridiculous. As hated as CertainlyT's designs are, they come nowhere near close to some of past reworked champions in terms of raw frustration they cause.

Boulderox2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Weiss Guertena,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rPr82MdE,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2018-08-12T15:33:46.591+0000)

Nidalee was much more flawed tho, since her spears had much bigger range and didn't require you to hit another ability before or AA after to get the full damage. You could literally just blindly spam spears the entire game and win on the basis on that - hell, there were even LCS games won off a 4 second cooldown spears blindly thrown into FoW and luckily hitting someone whom they didn't even know was there. Can you carry a game with Zoe by just lobbing Q left and right, without using your passive, your E, or your R in an offensive manner?

technically yes, and the whole point of the E and R is to maximize the Q damage... she lobs a sleep bubble from FOW, lands, then Q's ults over the wall and rotations you and you are dead with little to no reaction time

And on the second point, Silences on those 3 champions had one thing in common: they were all point and click. Where with Zoe you can sidestep, bodyblock or use minions as a shield in lane, those 3 didn't care about those. If you were in their effective range, you were silenced with nothing you could do about it and most likely killed before the silence wore off.

And in the case of zoe, she has the burst in her kit to 100-0 WHEN she lands that ONE bubble, it isn't that you can't dodge it, because you can, but it is a matter of WHEN she hits it rather than if she lands it, in that case, you die.

Not to mention that with those three being assassins, their silence was paired up with high mobility. If you existed within half a screen of LB or Kassadin, you'd get deleted by them blinking and then throwing their PnC silence nuke from the distance Zoe can only hope to achieve with the trickiest of wall shots. Oh, and they could blink away after killing or failing to do so too.

Very true, but zoe ult is technically a blink in and out in one ability, going from point A to B then back to A, something that say leblanc has to keep an eye on or risk losing the ability to blink back, or spend lots of mana to blink around as kassadin. where everything is done for zoe automatically for 50 flat mana, there is no contest.

Not saying Zoe needs changes, but comparing her to those is just ridiculous. As hated as CertainlyT's designs are, they come nowhere near close to some of past reworked champions in terms of raw frustration they cause. HOW? she takes a rule of the game, and twists it on it's head. summoners are a VERY powerful thing that is limited for a reason, and the fact she has access to random ones, for good or bad, but there isn't a case where there is a bad summoner/item she can get. And how that W PUNISHES using your summoners, as it makes her have her already availible ones on top of the one YOU USED. that isn't a fair mechanic in my honest opinion. Add that to the gameplay of "wait until i hit a bubble" is bad enough, add the W and it is a recipe for disaster, and lots of players really don't like zoe, and for good reason.

Weiss Guertena1 votes

{quoted}

technically yes, and the whole point of the E and R is to maximize the Q damage... she lobs a sleep bubble from FOW, lands, then Q's ults over the wall and rotations you and you are dead with little to no reaction time

Even if the point of E and R is to maximize Q damage, those abilities are still an integral part of her kit. Zoe just chucking Q's without utilizing her other spells properly is useless. Nidalee could win games on her Q and her Q alone. Traps were an afterthought after damage nerfs, and while she did throw out a heal every now and then it was in no way integral to her playstyle. Cougar form - her ultimate, her identity and half of her kit - was just a glorified escape tool and out-of-combat movement speed boost. You could spend an entire game without using any of your cougar form abilities in combat and it wouldn't weaken you a bit.

So no, those two really aren't comparable.

And in the case of zoe, she has the burst in her kit to 100-0 WHEN she lands that ONE bubble, it isn't that you can't dodge it, because you can, but it is a matter of WHEN she hits it rather than if she lands it, in that case, you die.

Yes, it is a matter of when with Zoe - I'm not going to deny that. With Talon, LB and Kass however, it wasn't even a matter of when - if they existed within their blink distance of you and they decided that you die, then you died. No ifs, ands or buts - blink on top of you, undodgeable CC, undodgeable burst. As limited as counterplay to Zoe is it exists in traces at least, which is still far more generous than with aforementioned 3 champions before their reworks.

Very true, but zoe ult is technically a blink in and out in one ability, going from point A to B then back to A, something that say leblanc has to keep an eye on or risk losing the ability to blink back, or spend lots of mana to blink around as kassadin. where everything is done for zoe automatically for 50 flat mana, there is no contest.

The fact that it is a blink in and out in one ability is a double edged sword however. If LeBlanc decides that she doesn't want to blink back, she doesn't have to. Zoe doesn't have that luxury which can easily be a hindrance more than an advantage. For example, if someone survives Zoe's combo with a sliver of HP they will get away because she blinks backwards automatically. LB will just chase you and finish the job. If someone throws a CC spell at Zoe's return point, she will blink back into it. Throwing anything at LB's return pad is pointless because she can simply choose not to blink back into it. And I believe one of the major points here was the combination of blinking on top of you, CC'ing and bursting before CC wears off. Zoe can't do that due to the manner in which her blink works: if she uses R to land E on someone, then she isn't landing Q on them. She has to land E beforehand. Old LB and Kass didn't have that problem - their entire CC and burst could instantly be delivered after blinking on top of someone.

HOW? she takes a rule of the game, and twists it on it's head. summoners are a VERY powerful thing that is limited for a reason, and the fact she has access to random ones, for good or bad, but there isn't a case where there is a bad summoner/item she can get. And how that W PUNISHES using your summoners, as it makes her have her already availible ones on top of the one YOU USED. that isn't a fair mechanic in my honest opinion. Add that to the gameplay of "wait until i hit a bubble" is bad enough, add the W and it is a recipe for disaster, and lots of players really don't like zoe, and for good reason.

She's not the first hero that twists the rule of the game, and she won't be the last. Before Thresh no hero could provide mobility to allies. Ivern is a jungler that doesn't deal a single point of damage to jungle monsters over the course of the game. Bard can CC both allies and turrets - something no one could do before or after him. Since the beginning of League everyone was on equal footing when it comes to obtaining gold from kills and assists - enter Pyke. Making heroes who change rules is the way to keep the game interesting. There was a time back then when new releases felt very dull (Vi, Aatrox and a few others), because you could basically expect every new hero to follow a pattern: a mobility spell, a CC spell, a steroid of some sort and whatever filler abilities they could think of. Breaking rules - when done correctly, where Zoe might somewhat missed the mark - is not necessarily bad for the game. On the contrary.

Also things that technically fall into the rules of the game can easily be much more disrupting than things that follow them. Old Nidalee spear didn't break any rules - it functioned exactly the same as any other skillshot. However, it could deal 80-100% of a squishy champion's HP from 1500 range once every 4 seconds with practically nonexistant mana cost. Or AP Yi, the biggest abomination ever conceived in history of League. Neither one of his abilities broke any rules - but a 300+100% AP AoE nuke and 800+400% AP heal, both having their cooldowns completely reset on each takedown don't have to break any rules to be the opressive beyond any rhyme or reason.

Again, I'm not saying Zoe is perfectly fair and balanced by today's League standards - it's undeniable that she has issues. But if she was released back then, people would cry tears of joy if their lane opponent was Zoe and not Nidalee, Yi or Kassadin. They are simply incomparable when it comes to how much frustration they could cause.

DuskDaUmbreon4 votes

My only worry is that DoT champions will displace her an unreasonable amount, and will ultimately fuck her over way too much.

Because, keep in mind: While being moved she's unable to cast abilities, because she's being displaced. If Morgana puts her W down, or Malzahar presses E, that leaves her a very small window (if any) to attack in. Consequentially, if you set the bar too low, you'll end up screwing over the DoT champions, because they only get to knock her back once.

Also, remember: Yasuo. If every instance of damage counts as a displacement, you no longer need to have anyone aim anything, or use any ultimates, if you want to ult as Yasuo. All that has to happen is for one stray source of damage to hit her...

If you code around both of these, and other issues that can occur, it should be fine, though. And it does make a kind of sense, as she's jumping around with unstable holes in the fabric of reality, and if you got hit slightly during that being pushed slightly would be the least of your worries.

Ultimately, though, the greatest nerf would be Zoe literally holding up a sign when she ults that says "DO NOT USE YOUR CC ON ME YET, AIM IT TOWARDS WHERE I'M ABOUT TO RE-APPEAR", so that way stupid people finally get that idea, and her winrate plummets 10% because of that one tiny thing.

Rathar Dashing1 votes

Most DoT champs don't tick more than once or twice every second. Or you could always just have it not apply from DoT. Her E already works that way for allied DoT.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

How about unique spellcasts and auto-attacks? They used that for Electrocute to keep it balanced, I don't see why it couldn't be done for the OP's proposed displacement effect too!

Altiverse1 votes

Hey, my thoughts exactly. Though to be honest I feel like limiting unique spell casts to DoT only will prove more interesting, allowing some unique counterpicks like Ahri's Q, Taliyah's Q or Heim's W to displace her multiple times.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

Sure! I was mostly just suggesting something I thought would help mitigate some of the concerns raised above here. The details of how it gets done... I'll leave that to you and others.

Altiverse1 votes

Well, I was thinking that in edge cases like DoT then yes they could only move her once with the initial hit. Shouldn't be too hard considering it already exists in the game with how Electrocute functions. And I don't feel like it will screw DoT champs over - I don't think there's one that has nothing besides their DoT, plus auto attacks work as well.

Also, as I mentioned briefly (and perhaps should put more emphasis on), Zoe should still be able to cast abilities and auto attacks while being displaced. In other words, it wouldn't be a traditional knockback where it also functions as an Airborne status (allowing Yasuo to ult), but instead move her slightly (should look visually like Thresh's hook displacement does).

Automated Riven5 votes

Zoe can recast q while cc'ed tho.

Add924 votes

Remove Zoe . simple D:

Have you also been diagnosed with sugondese ? Very common disease with your symptoms . kappa

Teridax683 votes

2 basic changes to Zoe that I think could improve her counterplay significantly:

  1. Prevent her from being able to recast her Q while affected by ability-disabling CC. All other double-cast effects in League are disabled while the casting champion is silenced, stunned, airborne, etc., and there is no reason why Zoe should be an exception when this immunity lets her massively damage opponents who have properly disabled her or engaged her at close range.
  2. Let Zoe move while blinked to another location, but if she gets hit by any rooting or grounding effect, she shouldn't be able to blink back. As with the above, mobility effects are typically disabled if the champion using them is rooted or grounded prior to the cast. Seeing how Portal Jump is meant to induce a degree of risk for Zoe, it makes little sense for her to be able to blink back and forth with relative impunity from crowd control. By contrast, Zoe is also meant to synergize with basic movement just so that she can pick up orbs and reposition, and blinks back to her original casting location anyway, so letting her move in-between would not allow her to reposition still.
Illabethe2 votes

I wouldn't mind the displacement if it meant a slightly increased range to R as balance.....

Keep in mind a displacement actually affects enemies more than Zoe herself. They are aiming for either her or her pool. and Displacement would make skill shots of allies miss.

Altiverse1 votes

To be fair, if anything it will just make opponents more used to aiming skillshots at her starting location once people get used to this mechanic, which is the best course of choice as it is now anyway, since it guarantees a hit. (and as mentioned, the starting location of her Portal Jump won't be affected by the displacements)

Ahpe1 votes

{quoted}

I was diagnosed with Ligma last week from fourth-dimensional intersections of yinger and yangerons, and my doctor says my condition is quite gloomy. I'll do my best to play Zoe less from now on, because as I've heard Ligma is contagious.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/7/7d/Wahaha_Emote.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/90?cb=20180731211711

Great idea too, it would provide some pretty good counterplay.

AhriAlistarAzirBlitzcrankCamilleCorkiDariusDianaEvelynnFiddlesticksFizzGalioGnarGragasHecarimIreliaJannaJarvanIVLeeSinLuluMaokaiNautilusNocturneOriannaPoppyPykeRakanRammusRivenShacoShenShyvanaSkarnerSwainSyndraTahmKenchTaliyahThreshTristanaTrundleUrgotVayneVolibearWarwickXinZhaoZacZiggs

A solid amount of champions would be able to force Zoe to miss her abilities while she's using Portal Jump.

RISE Shlack1231 votes

Ignoring the lame "ligma" joke, I think you have an interesting and well-thought idea here.

HalcyonDweller1 votes

This sounds pretty cool, others in the comments have raised valuable concerns, but with the proper protection (perhaps unique spell-casts and auto-attacks only) I think this has a lot of potential!

DKM Bismarck1 votes

The problem with Zoe is that her level 2 W can decide a game. I don't mind getting one shot by a Zoe who hits everything because that is what she is meant to do. What she is NOT meant to do is get Redemption or Protobelt level 2, go to the scuttle fight because she shoved me in and I couldn't do a thing about it, and win the game off of it. That is what feels like shit. Oh and when she gets like 3 flashes, a smite and a barrier in a teamfight that can also eat shit.

Marothennan1 votes

tl;dr

theChibiTina1 votes

Can Zoe not currently be displaced while portal jumping? I know there's a very small window of opportunity for it, but if you can flash while portal jumping and still get reset to original location then it would make sense for you to be able to be displaced too. Has anyone actually tested this or is it just being assumed that she can't be displaced? I know a thresh hook can hit her and she'll pop back with the hook still on her. (Kinda like the mechanic where if you hook someone right as they teleport, you can still take the hook to them. Even all the way across the map and straight into their fountain. Lol.)

Sirsir1 votes

I just want her reworked with a different W. It doesn't belong in her kit at all. Give her a damage or different utility W, and put Spell Thief on the docket for a support character later

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