Zilean 0.82% pickrate

TheLittlestLulu·Jul 25, 2015·101 votes·5,687 views

Keep up the good work Riot.

113 Comments

AmazingBeaverJul 25, 201530 votes

new Zilean sucks ass man , just so hard to land a Q not even talking about landing a double Q

ponkzyJul 25, 20152 votes

i love playing zilean against alistar, because i lose at every phase of the game

StoryDuckJul 25, 201516 votes

Zilean is indeed in a weird spot now. I don't think his entire kit is bad but that Q is ultra awkward and his passive is...useless. I like that Q stuns everything in the large area but it is very hard to land that second bomb. If they just made the second bomb have a large prioritizing second bomb attach area to the second then it would fix most of his problems. He actually has one of the longest lockdowns in the game. E > Q > W > Q > E that's a LOT of CC 2.5 seconds slow > 1.5 second stun > 2.5 second slow for 6.5 seconds of that guy's going no where.

His passive seems like a waste of space. Like they were forced to give him a passive but didn't want to. Personally I think his passive should be a mini verison of his ult in that his ult rewinds death but his passive rewinds wounds (Heal x+x per level on an ally when Zilean casts a spell on an ally.)

Rew711Jul 25, 20155 votes

I'd rather this...

[P] After using an ability, Zilean can use it a second time with no wait (but must use mana again) in the next 2 seconds. (10/7/4 second cool down at levels 1/7/13)

[Q] Zilean can send out a bomb in a skill shot. If Zilean is able to land two on the same champion or enemy, the enemy is stunned for 1.2/1.4/1.6/1.8/2 seconds.

[W] Zilean is able to speed up the regeneration of an allies health regen for 3 seconds. He boosts their health regen by 10/25/40/55/70% (+[10% AP]%) for 3 seconds. Cost: 40/45/50/55/60 mana Cool Down: 16/14/12/10/8 seconds

[E] Zilean and a nearby ally gain a large speed boost for the next 3 seconds. Zilean can cast on a enemy to slow them for 2.5 seconds.

[R] Zilean is able to stop a champion from dying by reviving them if they lose all their health.

PersonwithhatJul 26, 20151 votes

Your W is useless. Just pointing it out......

Better something like ekko's ult.

"Revert" the damage that X takes for the next 1.5 seconds? CD: 18/16/14/12/10

X is either an AOE for allies, nearby allies and you, target and you, or just a target(mb only u etc.)

Oh, and just to let you know, I know how to build Zilean so that he can jungle. Do his first clear solo , no leash. Etc.

<3 BREAK THE META, JUNGLE ZILEAN!

Rew711Jul 26, 20151 votes

Looking at health regens from Shen and Zac, I've noticed the importance. I also forgot to be more specific and add the fact its based off their max HP. So, being able to gain an extra 70%(+) health regen based of your max health for at least 4 seconds seems awesome to me.

Say you are with a Graves. At max level, he has 18.575 health regen and has 1979.12 max heath. If Zilean we to use his max W on Graves, he'd be healing 1385.384 bonus (this is every 5 seconds, so every second, he regenerates 277 health). This is not useless, because this happens up to 6 seconds.

Or, if he boosts just the health regen by the certain %. He can boost it at max level to be able to do (at least) 31.5775 (which would be more fair now looking at numbers). With, at least 500 AP, he is now able to raise up the % to 120% and now he regenerates +22.29 over 3 (or more) seconds.

I'm not saying Zilean can't have a better ability like the one you said, but with this much better kit, he would be able to be a competitive pick. He has great stuns if able to land, a adequate (or if the first one is implemented under better measure) heal, and slow/ally+self speed boost, and revive.

PersonwithhatJul 26, 20151 votes

Are you kidding me?

You're saying a heal of 277 per second is balanced in any way?

Just no......

Plus heals don't fit his kit. It's like the fiora heal. He speeds up (time etc.), and slows (time etc.). He also reset CD's (time), and reverts death (time).

He 'heals' by reverting damage, my version of the W. His ult has a time restriction, which makes more sense.

That way his heal can be ranging from low to high. ETC.

Possibly heal X% of the damage done to the target over the next 5 seconds or something.

Rew711Jul 26, 20151 votes

"reverts death" =?= "heals"

your mind is also too much on Ekko. Zilean is about time displacement, while Ekko is about reverting time. They're the same, but with different goals. Ekko also heals "X" number + damage given. I just thought that it would be cool. I guess that just a flat 50% (+[10% AP]%) would be better, allowing only 139 health back per second.

PersonwithhatJul 26, 20151 votes

You ain't reading it.

I said, once activated, the damage taken in the next 1.5 seconds is reverted.

That's time displacement exactly like the revival. (if dead in 5 seconds gets revived).

and anyway you put it , it doesn't fit with Zileans kit. Heals don't work. Period.

Rew711Jul 26, 20151 votes

We both have ideas of how our champs should be, but look at it this way: You're asking for a revert on damage taken over the next 1.5 seconds. This is more tanky than it needs to be. This is Galio's W only without the bonus armor and magic resist for a even less time. Since its 100% of that damage was reverted into a heal, I don't see the need. It's also worse considering they NEED to take damage for it to work. And, if they do not take damage in the last 1.5 seconds, its null. They also might only receive that one shot, ability damage or whatever damage from only 1.5 seconds ago (ergo, more likely 100-500 heal). That's not only tough for Riot to develop, but hard to use. Its great for if a enemy gangs up on your ADC, but its also a troll move. You revert supposedly all the damage, you put no cap on the point at which it ends. The sad thing is, my heal that goes over the next 3 seconds, will only heal at max level (if we go with the 50% heal) is 30% of his health over 3 seconds. You on the other hand want to revert all the damage. That's not fun, nor is it fair. With no cool down reducing W anymore, he cannot just keep redoing the heal. It, itself should cost 100 mana (now scaling from 60/70/80/90/100 mana per use). It will also now only heal for 10/20/30/40/50% (+[3% AP]%) (now if he gets even 1000 AP, it will now only do a +30% heal which in turn only allows 48% heal at most the first 3 seconds) now that I looked at the numbers. This is so that his heals aren't crazy. His cool down should be 16 seconds (flat) to stop any over doses.

His early game heal would also be very weak, only allowing a 10% heal (maybe 11.5% or more) over the 3 seconds (which means he'd only be able to get about a 6% heal over the 3 seconds and up to a 12% heal if used again).

PersonwithhatJul 27, 20151 votes

CD is nothing ona zilean. Pretend non-stop heals.

Helas are a stupid idea on him.
The entire POINT is you have to get damaged. Nos hit.
~~ignore dis~~

Rew711Jul 27, 20151 votes

With the passive I made up, CDs will now affect him more.

lets get rid of his R then
lets raise all heals, and remove Soraka's 10% health cost (watch the language)
This is not a good enough reason. Its like picking a or any other easy champ for a easy win. Plus, think about what Riot will have to work with. How are they suppose to do this and not expect this to go out of control. Its a win-lose situation. ADC low on health, insta-revive. ADC low on health, been out longer than 1.6 seconds, no heal for you. Champion hits you with his/her ultimate, use my W to fix it as if it never happened.

PersonwithhatJul 27, 20151 votes

Nice logic. Where does "soraka's heal" go in with this? Seriously? lmfao.

And his ult is TOTALLy to heal people, like, not to save them from death. run under turret bro so I can heal you after you die

Nice.....

and 3 was not related to this LOL.

And y es? W never happened? How is that an issue?

At worst it can give 20/30/40/50/60% damage removal.

Or, say, block 100% of the damage by healing it over the next 5 seconds.

hobomann2Jul 25, 20153 votes

I KNOW!, if only he had like A POINT AND CLICK SLOW, so he can land his bomb combo, IF ONLY!

SquidblimpJul 25, 20152 votes

This.

JustMyBassCannonJul 25, 201529 votes

His passive needs to be not shit.

Swat HoundJul 25, 20152 votes

It's like, yeah, "OH NO the enemy team has zill so now I lose on that lane advantage level up.... eventually!...." But... Think of what they could have had instead of picking Zil?

It was a fun neat little thing that happened and you could build a team around, but now its pretty fucking sad.

I get it, invisible power and all that jazz, but DOOOOOOD... CMAWAWWWN.

New Zil Sucks.

JustMyBassCannonJul 25, 20155 votes

New Zilean isn't actually that bad, it's pretty much entirely his passive that makes him lame.

Voluug13Jul 25, 20152 votes

And his new, reworked inability to solo lane anymore against anyone with any amount of mobility.

JustMyBassCannonJul 25, 20152 votes

You make it sound like aiming Time Bombs is any harder than Cho'gath's Rupture, Brand's Pillar of Flame or Karma's Inner Flame.

Or any other AoE delay shots that I could name.

Also, have you ever considered throwing them at a minion target instead of the champion? Minions are fairly predictable, and it's pretty easy to get a double-bomb stun. It's like playing Brand, setting something on fire and then using your E to hit the enemy champ.

DraginathJul 26, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You make it sound like aiming Time Bombs is any harder than Cho'gath's Rupture, Brand's Pillar of Flame or Karma's Inner Flame.

Or any other AoE delay shots that I could name.

Also, have you ever considered throwing them at a minion target instead of the champion? Minions are fairly predictable, and it's pretty easy to get a double-bomb stun. It's like playing Brand, setting something on fire and then using your E to hit the enemy champ.

It's not the initial aiming that is the trouble. That much is easy. The trouble is dealing with the buggy "sticking" mechanic. It's hotbox is just so dodgy. You might toss it as a champion and it prioritized a minion. You might be targeting on specific minion in a pack for zoning purposes and it sticks to one outside of the range you were looking for. Don't get me started on team fights. Good luck getting two to stick to the same champion. More often than not, you will throw it into a pack with a target in mind and one sticks but the next hits someone else.

The problem with the ability is that there are 3 gates to its effectiveness: it's toss range, it's sticking range, and it's prioritizing of targets.

magic poleJul 26, 20151 votes

the delay is long enough that unless you tag them with the bomb, they most likely won't suffer the damage.

the hitbox of the bomb itself is quite small, and it is a slow moving lob. It is harder to land than the 3 you just mentioned; it is harder to land than syndra Q.

it really is quite difficult and one of the hardest skill shots to land in the game.

PersonwithhatJul 26, 20151 votes

Plus, you have to land it twice in a row...

Not that I have any issues with it <3

I'm just too good with skillshots

Cho's rupture is laughably easy to land :3

FeathermaneJul 25, 201518 votes

His pick rate was always among the lowest in the game. No one wants to play a guy with a single damage ability, who gives his allies speed boosts in an environment where everything has a slow attached, with an ultimate that has counterplay, and all this while looking like a kooky old man.

LegacyDAPJul 25, 20156 votes

Not true. There was a time when Aggro lanes were extremely strong, and winning the game ASAP was really good. Now that they nerfed his passive for no reason at all, and made his Q skillshots (Riot what the fuck) he's practically unplayable, it's just to hard to do the good damage he used too, because they nerfed that too, and added a stun.

StoryDuckJul 25, 20152 votes

Being a kooky old man is the best part though.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 25, 20151 votes

Nobody wants to play a guy with a single damage ability? Bard

JustMyBassCannonJul 25, 20151 votes

Bard's heal doesn't rely on his one target dying, his mobility lets people without gap closers escape terrain, and he has a goddamn AoE Zhonya's for an ultimate. Also, his Meeps actually scale pretty well if you're remembering to pick up chimes.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 25, 20151 votes

I just wanted to point out that Bard only has one damage ability. Bard is better than Zilean definitely.

JustMyBassCannonJul 25, 20153 votes

Two.

You really should pay attention to those meeps. Bard has a friggin army that actually does a lot of damage with a free Rylai's slow attached.

GafugarionJul 26, 20151 votes

Meeps is where its at yo.

NewFoundAbilityJul 25, 201511 votes

First everyone hated Zilean for the longest time and called him a troll pick. Then he gets LCS coverage, and soon after he gets a rework...

The second he gets a rework, everyone wants the old Zilean back; Global passive, easy point-and-click Q, you could use W on your Ult.

##Make up your minds, people!!

AnotherherolostJul 25, 201525 votes

{quoted}

First everyone hated Zilean for the longest time and called him a troll pick. Then he gets LCS coverage, and soon after he gets a rework...

The second he gets a rework, everyone wants the old Zilean back; Global passive, easy point-and-click Q, you could use W on your Ult.

##Make up your minds, people!!

This is actually a testament to how horrible the "rework" was. We'd rather at least have a playable champion.

THESuperStuntManJul 25, 20153 votes

I would say it's probably not the same people wanting the old one back that were complaining about it. Mid Zilean was annoying, but I didn't think he was overpowered and I didn't complain about it.

BlastiresJul 26, 20152 votes

Honestly, I had no problem with pre rework Zil. Yes, his Q was a point and click so the moment you were in range you had a bomb on the head, but they could have keep it a point and click and reduce his damage to oblivion and make your second Q a MUST HAVE. Something like adding a bomb on an already bombed target makes him suffer more damage/stun him/etc. so yes, he would have done a lot of damage, but at least he would have to waste His Q and W completely.

The only thing I disliked was the W affecting your ult cooldown. I once had enough time to revive the same guy 2 time in the same team fight, it was a long team fight...but still.

EDIT: His global passive was maybe too huge, but maybe giving a really big range limit. Not all the map, but something sufficient so the top laner would not get it freely.

Sky ShadowJul 25, 20154 votes

They ruined him with the Q change.

It's ridiculously hard to land, especially two on the same target as stated above.

I used to play him a lot before the rework and after the rework I stopped playing him all together because of it, which is unfortunate.

I think the main problem is with the way it works, at least for me. The arch to the throw delays it actually reaching it's location and once it it's the ground, it doesn't actually register or become 'active' for about 0.5-1 second. In which time people can easily avoid them.

I really wish they would look into either an alternate means of utilizing his Q's or change the throw speed > activation time on them to at least make them reliable.

Because at this point, I'd rather have the old Q's back and remove the stun from it.

Shield is SwordJul 25, 20154 votes

I actually play a bit of Zilean, and he's not bad if you know how to build / play him properly. I don't even bother with AP on him, since I'm a support main. Max his E first and W second, get 40% CDR, and you'll be a huge bully that doesn't let anyone move. 99% Slow / Move Speed Increase is huge. No one can escape.

DorkunedAurasJul 25, 20154 votes

He's my main support I turn to when I have to support. In a 1v1 lane like mid, his bombs aren't reliable, but with 2 targets, it's much easier to land them. Not to mention, his E makes the bombs super easy to land. I think zilean has a massive advantage in that, like all uncommon picks, no one has experience playing against him, and you can use that to your advantage. He was be garbage if popular, because people would be used to dodging bombs, but since they're not, hey, free AoE stuns in lane.

THESuperStuntManJul 25, 20154 votes

As much as I used to love playing Zilean, he's just not fun anymore after they nerfed every one of his abilities. His q is too slow and unreliable to do damage, his W feels terrible since it's mostly just used as another Q, his E does almost nothing since its duration is so short, and his R duration is so short that the other team can easily just wait it out before they kill the person. Oh yeah, and he has no passive.

DraginathJul 25, 20154 votes

The rework just feels half-finished. It's like they wanted to address reasons why Zilean could be obnoxious, removed said obnoxious bits, and just left it. They just didn't address all the things that required Zilean to be obnoxious in order to be playable:

extremely low base health
high mana costs (especially for a champion designed around spamming spells)
one damaging ability
passive that loses value as the game goes

And the list goes on. What's left is a buggy shell of a champion that could be awesome, but is unfinished. The new Q is one of the buggiest abilities in the game, even moreso when double bombing. E feels underwhelming at all ranks because it's just not as noticeable anymore, even with an increased slow. A 5.5 second duration 55% slow is significantly more devastating than a 2.5 second 90% slow in every...single...case.

I see where they were trying to go, but they didn't adequately compensate all the stuff they removed. Zilean should probably be moved up in priority for a rework because at least the other reworks are somewhat effective, even if niche.

TeslynJul 25, 20154 votes

hidden power.. that works.. or obvious power that can be countered.

i do miss old troll zilean.. this new one.. ehh..

Irelia BotJul 26, 20153 votes

That pick rate sounds like season 3 Irelia

high ping btwJul 25, 20152 votes

enemy team had ziliean support...we won the game in 20 minutes

ComannderShepardJul 25, 20152 votes

im in the .82% :0.

Double Q's are incredibly hard to land. If you try to play him as a support (like me) it's very hard to have an impact because bombs do relatively low damage and you run out of mana if you are constantly trying to double Q. E feels mediocre (in lane anyways) and can only really help for ganks and other situational scenarios. His ult is still there though. Woot?

Harrys Nut ShackJul 25, 20152 votes

They need to start by giving him a non-useless passive and go from there.

KrinuJul 26, 20152 votes

I think the problems with him right now boil down to:

He doesn't have a passive.
His Q is soft countered by boots and is flat out useless against champions with dashes.

Now, obviously, there are countless different things you could do for a passive. But... if you want my $0.02... I think it should be something like this:

Timeless, Eternal: All effects with a duration applied by Zilean last (X * level)% longer.

It plays into his time theme, it makes him scary late game (where he's had issues with falling off in performance), and it opens some fun interactions with items on-use abilities.

As for his the second problem, how about this: Rewind: Reduces the remaining cooldown of Time Bomb and Time Warp by 10 seconds. Additionally, Zilean's knowledge of the future increases the enemy Champion pickup radius of his next bomb used within 5 seconds by 100%.

I suppose you could always just hang a passive "increases bomb pickup radius by 25%" effect on either Rewind or Time Bomb, but frankly, that might make him too good. This way makes his nearly impossible to land double-bomb a little easier to pull off without turning him into another Morgana-esque safe laner.

ImFromMexicoJul 25, 20151 votes

I mean 1/126 = .79.

So that's actually not that bad when you consider there are 126 champions.

Widder88Jul 25, 20156 votes

But a game needs 10 champions.

ImFromMexicoJul 25, 20151 votes

Right. But in order for Zilean's pick rate to go up he only needs to be picked once. The expected % should be higher than .8%. I wonder if some one better at math could work out what the average pick % should be lol. I have no clue.

manbearswineJul 25, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Right. But in order for Zilean's pick rate to go up he only needs to be picked once. The expected % should be higher than .8%. I wonder if some one better at math could work out what the average pick % should be lol. I have no clue.

It's 10/126(~7.94%),which is 10 times what you said,10 champions per game,out of 126.