Juggernauts feel underwhelming right now.

AR URF·Nov 21, 2017·3 votes·413 views

I'm talking about the traditional juggernaut builds like (not necessarily the passive part of it) and much more. It's sad when I'm going and get my ass kicked by full tank . is not the only one though. If I'm playing with or with . I die to a full tank . What the old runes had to offer over the new runes is damage. so if I had 12 flat ad runes vs 21 ad scaling runes, that little boost mattered a lot in the early game. Me and my friends always joked about Tank meta being that way since season 5, but it appears that tanks are still the favorable role. Another example is building full tank or full tank .

Does anyone else feel this way?

Edit: You guys are just proving my point. All the tank champions are beating the juggernauts. I know about positioning and all that, but it doesn't make sense for a full on 1v1 fight to be in the favor of the tank. Nor should it.

15 Comments

SuperLuigiLXIVNov 21, 20172 votes

Mundo is identical to an ADC as far as Darius is concerned, in that he can poke and kite forever if he chooses to, and that's a stated weakness of juggernauts, so it shouldn't surprise you.

Nor should Rammus and Urgot. Mobility and damage are both really high this preseason, and that means champions who get kited are simply not in a good place in general right now. Champions with catches, slows, dashes, anything better than clicking are going to perform better.

Not that I'm necessarily against that, I think juggernauts are poorly designed anyway.

Although, I'm confused by the whole Riven/Garen reference. If you're complaining about juggernauts feeling weak, why are you using Riven, a fighter, losing to Garen, a juggernaut, as an example?

redniwediSNov 21, 20172 votes

As a Garen main I prefer building him off-tank, or straight up damage, but it feels like the most reliable and effective way to build him right now is very tanky. You end up being just a damage soak for your team outside of fighting the "villain", and it feels a little crummy. His early game is decent because he can still rely on his base damage to get by, but the Juggernaut update gave him a better late game by letting him scale better with AD. It would be nice if I felt the risk of higher AD had a matching reward.

Part of the problem is Black Cleaver. It's great early for Riven because of how well she does with CDR, but with the other champs mentioned there are better items to focus on. Black Cleaver honestly sucks to build within the first few items, and when I do get it I prefer to just sit on Phage for a while and get something that feels better. Have you experimented with other items yet, and if so which ones?

Juggernauts are just in a crummy spot as a whole right now, feeling frustrating to play even if they overall do well.

AR URFNov 21, 20172 votes

{quoted}

As a Garen main I prefer building him off-tank, or straight up damage, but it feels like the most reliable and effective way to build him right now is very tanky. You end up being just a damage soak for your team outside of fighting the "villain", and it feels a little crummy. His early game is decent because he can still rely on his base damage to get by, but the Juggernaut update gave him a better late game by letting him scale better with AD. It would be nice if I felt the risk of higher AD had a matching reward.

Part of the problem is Black Cleaver. It's great early for Riven because of how well she does with CDR, but with the other champs mentioned there are better items to focus on. Black Cleaver honestly sucks to build within the first few items, and when I do get it I prefer to just sit on Phage for a while and get something that feels better. Have you experimented with other items yet, and if so which ones?

Juggernauts are just in a crummy spot as a whole right now, feeling frustrating to play even if they overall do well.

I like to rush item 3142 , but it seems like it's not working.

azrolatorNov 21, 20171 votes

Ghostblade and Phantom Dancer are great for helping him get to the target. It's just not enough. Not enough damage when you get there compared to how much damage you are taking to do so.

KrushakArrankissNov 21, 20171 votes

Riven always lost to a good Garen anyway. He has a good base armor/Regen, his W negates a lot of damage nad he probably maxed it out first if he saw you going BC, I would do that too. Then get heavy HP/Armor items because all he has to do is get you to a health threshold and just ult you. I mean the only AD item I ever get on Garen is BC because it procs off his E + his E has that armor shredding passive.

AR URFNov 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Riven always lost to a good Garen anyway. He has a good base armor/Regen, his W negates a lot of damage nad he probably maxed it out first if he saw you going BC, I would do that too. Then get heavy HP/Armor items because all he has to do is get you to a health threshold and just ult you. I mean the only AD item I ever get on Garen is BC because it procs off his E + his E has that armor shredding passive.

Stop picking on individual scenarios. I've listed quite a few champs.

meowwow7Nov 21, 20171 votes

if mundo plays smart with his cleavers and plays against darius passive by not going for extended trades he can easily take down the dunk master. the other 2 champs you listed on going full tank they have some tank stat scalings like urgot's w shield is affect by your max hp and rammus gets on hit magic dmg from armor and more resistances from his w for the ones he has built

KrushakArrankissNov 21, 20171 votes

I picked the individual scenario because it's the only scenario that I have EXPERIENCED with.

SujirenNov 21, 20171 votes

Its pretty efficient to build cleaver into full tank right now, as long as you buy resist items with cdr, due to transcendance rune. I feel like frozen heart is a very soilid item now, because of the prievious buff, and transcensance rune that converts excess cdr into ad. All in all bruisers still are one of the weakest classes, but they might make a comeback this season, the runes are promising.

ZerdunNov 21, 20171 votes

From what i can tell riven either goes full on assassin with Electrocute or specs into Aftershock. Considering that aftershock gives armor/MR values while also dealing damage with a scaling HP proc. It may be a reasonably viable thing to look into for the more CC heavy bruisers that used to use Fervor.

If we're making changes to the keystones themselves then maybe making press the attack a bit easier to access for these champs could serve as a better option for bruisers since it adds bonus damage on chained AA's against the target. It's not optimal because unlike fervor you basically have to ramp up against each player.

I feel that the game is in a relatively awkward for bruisers because right now because the champions who went Fervor or DFT sorta lost their best mastery. The ones that ran other things outside of that (t lords) now just run electrocute

azrolatorNov 21, 20171 votes

I agree about Juggernauts but don't know where you were going with the Garen/Riven example as Garen is a jug. Damage and mobility creep are making them feel worse and worse to play. The only time I really feel good with Garen is if I have a heavy AD team and go real tanky with 1 bc to help them out even when i die quickly. Its just too hard to engage as a bruiser anymore. If you succeed, you are usually so low health that you don't really last any time to be worthwhile. Just did an aram with darius. Built BC on him first and died fairly quickly but at least was getting assists. its been true and riot has been trying to push more for offense over defense. But that just leaves guys with no real engage and needing to build some defense in a really bad place.

I don't know what the answer is. I think giving some of these guys, like Garen, in-combat regen or something would help. You just lose too much trying to engage right now. Putting it into items or runes would just be abused by other champs. I don't feel like riot cares about those champs enough to rework them into something decent right now or reworking the mobility and damage creep out of everything else. My guess is they just keep on pushing a higher skill floor, dashes, and burst damage and letting anyone who doesn't like the way it is going lately to quit. NA is largely dead compared to LoL overall, we have other button mashers that kids and trolls can play and enjoy more. I think they are just designing for user bases in other countries that limit some of the games they have access to and so largely we (people that want more than button mashing) don't really count.

AR URFNov 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I agree about Juggernauts but don't know where you were going with the Garen/Riven example as Garen is a jug. Damage and mobility creep are making them feel worse and worse to play. The only time I really feel good with Garen is if I have a heavy AD team and go real tanky with 1 bc to help them out even when i die quickly. Its just too hard to engage as a bruiser anymore. If you succeed, you are usually so low health that you don't really last any time to be worthwhile. Just did an aram with darius. Built BC on him first and died fairly quickly but at least was getting assists. its been true and riot has been trying to push more for offense over defense. But that just leaves guys with no real engage and needing to build some defense in a really bad place.

I don't know what the answer is. I think giving some of these guys, like Garen, in-combat regen or something would help. You just lose too much trying to engage right now. Putting it into items or runes would just be abused by other champs. I don't feel like riot cares about those champs enough to rework them into something decent right now or reworking the mobility and damage creep out of everything else. My guess is they just keep on pushing a higher skill floor, dashes, and burst damage and letting anyone who doesn't like the way it is going lately to quit. NA is largely dead compared to LoL overall, we have other button mashers that kids and trolls can play and enjoy more. I think they are just designing for user bases in other countries that limit some of the games they have access to and so largely we (people that want more than button mashing) don't really count.

Garen built full tank that game is my reasoning.

azrolatorNov 21, 20171 votes

When people talk about tanks, they are mostly referring to champs with lock down cc. Garen's doesn't have much damage reduction outside of a short time on his w, and can't really engage and lock down enemy team for his team, so I think most people would call him a bruiser or "juggernaut" now. BC is only going to add around 100-200 damage to a maxed out E depending on enemy armor. If it didn't have the cd, and the move speed passive, you won't get much more damage out of it personally than just building a sunfire.

I will say that I am like building "tank" garen when i just go all tank items, but he still suffers the same way most jugs suffer... You take too much damage getting in, and once there you take too much damage to stay in, but get chunked if you try to leave. A tank can engage, stun, and walk back out while the enemy is stunned, or stay in and not take the damage from the guys he locked down. That isn't the case for most of what Riot are calling juggernauts.

AR URFNov 21, 20171 votes

{quoted}

When people talk about tanks, they are mostly referring to champs with lock down cc. Garen's doesn't have much damage reduction outside of a short time on his w, and can't really engage and lock down enemy team for his team, so I think most people would call him a bruiser or "juggernaut" now. BC is only going to add around 100-200 damage to a maxed out E depending on enemy armor. If it didn't have the cd, and the move speed passive, you won't get much more damage out of it personally than just building a sunfire.

I will say that I am like building "tank" garen when i just go all tank items, but he still suffers the same way most jugs suffer... You take too much damage getting in, and once there you take too much damage to stay in, but get chunked if you try to leave. A tank can engage, stun, and walk back out while the enemy is stunned, or stay in and not take the damage from the guys he locked down. That isn't the case for most of what Riot are calling juggernauts.

What about the others? Like we all know generally who would win in a match up of Ornn and JarvanIV .