Can we please stop buffing zed and other assassins by proxy?

[{quoted}](name=Blade Or Soul,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5OWjdBjc,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2018-06-01T11:54:22.587+0000)

You actually bring up great and well thought out points, I feel like both are relatively fair to play against in the grand scheme of things, Zed has a linear skillshot that isn't too hard to dodge, though he does have more range, that much is true, whilst Talons W snapback delay is a big part of his counterplay, that and ccing him during his Q.

I feel like if I get full comboed by a Zed I got outplayed though, especially if I failed to land my cc or failed to use Zhonyas. I feel as if it were my fault for not recognising what he will do in the situation the lane is in.

Im gonna add my 2 cents. The key thing to take away is while Zed has the most "healthy" assassination pattern, his actual lane phase is and always has been unhealthy.

Because of him being an energy user and the way his W works, he essentially functions as a manaless long range AD Artillery mage with the potential to all in.

Talon feels more fair to play against in lane because unless Talon commits, he doesn't really accomplish anything since he has to get into auto range with Q to proc passive after landing both hits of his W, and every time he doesnt land his Ws , he gets closer and closer to OOM, meaning you are rewarded for not letting him land them.

Talon has to be proactive to reach success. Zed can just play like a manaless mage until he feels like being an assassin.

I feel like if I get full comboed by a Zed I got outplayed though, especially if I failed to land my cc or failed to use Zhonyas.

I certainly can't argue with how you feel, if Zed's laning pattern doesn't bother you.

For me, the issue is that in lane, Zed has a ton of options. He can farm passively (his passive and Q help him last-hit), or he can gap-close (potentially twice once he hits 6). He dictates the lane because he has 8 different ways to start a fight while the immobile mage has only one way to survive the fight--land your hard CC when he goes in. Zhonyas isn't generally affordable until the end of laning phase.

I specifically said Talon may well be factually stronger, but he feels more fair to lane against than Zed.

Before level 6, Talon's engage is either: wait for jungler to gank and CC, or run up to you. He doesn't have a huge gap closer or a long-range poke skill (W travels slow enough and is narrow enough that you can usually avoid the second hit).

I'm talking about the laning experience. Yes, Talon's wall jump makes his ganks way more potent than Zed's, but when you're laning against him, he can't really use it to engage on you. His early-game engage pattern is either "get jungler help" or "walk up to you and you still didn't dodge his W."

{quoted}

zed was never in the gutter lol he never hit below 49% wr and always had a high pick rate

Yes, he was. After the initial Duskblade nerfs in 7.2, Zed dramatically dropped to around a 46-47% winrate for most of S7, being brought back up only when Duskblade was reworked. Then, he was utter trash again during Pre-S8 and the first few patches of S8. Riot decides to buff him, and everyone loses their shit.

He was he was only strong when lethality was op for a short amount of time then they changed it, however for the majority of s7 he was trash one of the weakest mid laners along with ryze and azir in solo q. Assassins are not suppose to be weak in soloq.

That's just objectively wrong. Like hella wrong. And it's sad an objectively wrong statement gets upvoted so hard.

{quoted}

I got raped by several Kayles yesterday. At least Zed falls off lategame vs people that can buy at least 2 defensive items.

Btw, he was never weak - picking a teamcomp that counters him doesn't mean he is weak. His kit is already OP, because he is manaless and autowins lane vs mana users. It's not fair for a champ to have weakness. If you think he is weak, you are biased.

He has been weak. Even against teamcomps he shouldn't have any issue with, Zed was in such a bad place in Season 7. His kit is OP? Hm. Yeah. A Q which has reduced damage for each enemy hit by it after the first, a W with a 22 second cooldown and a 1500 Missile Speed, and an melee-range AoE slow. His R has a .75 second untargetability period with another .5 seconds for the swap delay. His kit is also extremely telegraphed, and it's not difficult to play against. He's manaless because he expends his abilities in such a way that he needs to use up a lot of resource quickly while regaining it also quickly. If he had mana, he'd be literally useless all game. But I guess that's fine for players who don't wanna use their brains to think while playing against him, no?

He does not autowin lane against mana users. He might autowin lane against a paraplegic, or a Kassadin. Most of Zed's major counters are mana users.

I never said he IS weak. I said he has been weak in the past.

[{quoted}](name=Dope Solo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=5OWjdBjc,comment-id=0000000400000000,timestamp=2018-05-31T19:43:38.038+0000)

Well I see their point. Zed is broken and shouldn't be in the game in this state. When the devs clear the shit between their ears you can play him again.

They have no point tho. They keep repeating the same shit of: "NO COUNTERPLAY HIS W HAS NO COUNTERPLAY HIS WEQ HAS NO COUNTERPLAY I CAN'T BEAT HIS R" without looking at what THEY are doing wrong in those scenarios and moving to fix that.

{quoted}

It's a waste of time. I tried it back in s6 when riot OG gutted him into the lowest winrate champion until duskblade kinda revived him a year later. Can't reason with low elo communities lieing to make their point and present literal fake news like "he never dropped below 49% winrate he is riots golden child" when he literally sat in the shitter for over a year where even mains wouldnt get a 50% winrate on him. THAT was pathetic back then. And i'm not even playing zed anymore and still get triggered hard by these shit threads made by dogshit players.

I've been told that by a few other people and a couple of friends. Regardless, I'll continue to do so. It's somewhat entertaining, seeing these troglodytes struggle for a coherent argument with sufficient evidence.