courage of the collossus should be reworked and moved to the cunning tree.

CerealBoxOfDoom··2 votes·2,000 views

This style of shield, or most shields really, have begun to act as an alternative to evasion and have caused all sorts of issues etcetc but it is the kind of non-RNG evasion a lot of game makers (especially for moba) have probably been interested in.

I'm not asking for a nerf or.. you might call it a buff but this kind of shielding is more appropriate for offense!

Imagine this,

candlestick jumper - Whenever you deal tons of damage or hit someone in the back you get a shield equal to some portion of your move speed.

While were at it I'd like to start considering shields as a form of evasion in general rather than a shield where applicable. Looking at it this way you an say many champs make sense and others not so much, items as well.

Yasuo gets a shield from moving around and well.. that's actually ok! evasion is all he does! That's great actually! His wall is also a sort of parry evasion thing. As a matter of fact maybe his power and damage should be connected to stuff he evades like in an mmo. Not complaining about balance but the theme is sexy and sexy > balance

Whenever this guy evades something he gets 15% increased damage instead of having tons of damage all day long after getting a few items

Morgana ok here's a funny one. Morgana got that magic shield right? Morgana can ignore the cc right? She just ignores all the CC from physical damage dealers but here's the funny part. Imagine the equivalent of this in an MMO. Imagine a mage who just builds full plate and has an ability that lets them dodge magic spells and magic damage. Like what is this design even? Nevermind her damage, the idea of a not so squishy mage with a passive that heals her like shes some occult Templar for dealing damage, balance aside that's pretty tacky don't you think?

but then we have a sexy mage who does something similar

Ahri - ok so this one actually evades you but has a heal instead of something like a shield. Imagine if ahri's heal was actually a permashield. there have been jokes about this of course but if the size of it scaled with AP or something it would be thematically fitting in a way. Like having drained so much magical power from her victims she's gained an aura of power that can stop your magical spells or something. You could also put it on her dashes to represent evasiveness. No need to do this but I just want to show how this line of thought could be used in nice ways.

For the most part healing is kindof unhealthy and seems to provide more of a tanky state where you eventually just go in at full hp against other champs but when you are relying on evasion shielding there is no need to concern yourself with them healing way too much usually since you can put a clear cap on shields. Furthermore, you can make said shields interactive, especially in cases where cc is involved.

Irelia - her father was supposed to be able to dodge raindrops in the rain, apparently she decided she was going to be an immortal zombie instead xD but if she got shielding with a hard cap instead of healing (maybe keep the healing on her ult) this symbolically becomes some limit on what she can dodge and evade instead of encouraging her to get tanky as crap and just heal 1000 hp back then go jump you under your tower then run away when she fails like trololo. Btw a tower doesn't typically shoot through hp... not even sure how that would work, but it can shoot through a shield.

DrMundo - this guy isn't an assassin... keep the heal

Vladimir - you could finally rework this asshole lol. Give him an evasion shield, he's a not-vampire who turns into a pool of blood and evades a lot of stuff

Chogath - how does he even dodge anything, no shield for him keep the heal OMNOMNOM

Akali - THIS IS NINJA! give her a shield!

But wait, since akali is getting reworked lets have another look at this

Shen - this guy used to pull all sorts of shit because his shield was big and he had some dashy tricks

or even better

Riven - with no defense at all she jumps into fights and goes into berserk mode

shields are better evasion than heals and dodge mechanics. They are clean and don't make sense on some champs

Shen is a tank but he is a ninja tank and its cool when he dodges

Nautilus - ehhh.... he is a phantom I guess

Malphite - ... keep the shield small... this guy needs a rework someday anyways

But back to ahri

Ahri So hawt! #AhriFancultBanner

now back to akali

Akali - imagine if she had a shield instead of a heal, she jumps in and dodges some attacks and deals her damage and hides. The best way to do it is probably that akali gets a shield when she cannot be seen or when she does something specific like when she would normally get her heal. The best part is that it doesn't even have to be a huge shield, it can be a small recurring one. This would also make tank akali a bit tougher to implement if again the shield is based off "evasion stats"

actually you could just add an evasion stat to the game and have different shields and stuff scale with it, 0 rng, no need to have it ignore CC like morgana's. If you are cc'd its harder to dodge stuff obviously Jinx "durr"

Even better though, there can be an assassin item that ignores shields and their effects. This means that assassin damage could go down while assassin lethality... well that's an actual term now so assassin killtasticness goes up against nontanks that cant evade them or rapidly heal away their damage.

Even better still with less champs scaling well with defense and bypassing a new squishy defense ability we can have stronger tank itemization and stronger sustain itemization.

Example

Ahri

reduced hp reduced hp regen reduced mana pool higher move speed

passive: Whenever Ahri hits an enemy with one of her abilities, she gains a charge of Essence Theft, and can gain up to 3 charges per ability cast. Upon reaching 9 charges, her next ability PERMASHIELDS her for 3 / 5 / 9 / 18 (+ 9% AP) for each enemy hit for up to 300 hp shielding. If she has full shielding already she gains that much mana and hp instead, distributed equally among the two.

spirit rush - Whenever ahri uses a charge of this she gets a small shield while in motion or something. Or maybe she gets something from charm instead

Anyways lets make pseudo-evasion shield a thing and have another look at all these champs that probably need to change something thematically as a result

Galio - proper nonevader

Sion - ayyyyyyyyy

Garen - tanky annoying guy but proper non evader

Fizz - evasion extravaganza, btw we could shorten the duration of playful and just put a shield on him after he uses trickster to lower his frames of full untargetability while still letting him dodge a ton of damage (but not cc)

Fiora - NOPENOPENOPE change that to a massive 1.75 second morgana style shield

Rumble - not even sure what to do about this guy but he has funny winrate fluxuations just saying

Lucian Quinn VayneKindred these champs would get a new power budget from this that could solve a few issues.

item 3156 does this look like a tool for a high evasion character to you?

how about

item 3156 ignores shields, you trigger lifeline when you drop below 10% hp. When lifeline triggers you gain 100 hp, grievous wounds, 30% attack speed and the next lethal blow will instead leave you with 1 hp, ends when you exit combat with champs or something

19 Comments

The Yetii Rider5 votes

Assassins don't need shields. They should be very easy to kill when they don't position perfectly.

Cavemantero3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rHIs0Eqw,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-11-18T20:21:39.039+0000)

Assassins don't need shields. They should be very easy to kill when they don't position perfectly.

finally someone with sense.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

riot can likely nerf a shield a lot easier than they can sustain just saying

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

and they would be. Would you prefer assassins have massive/rapid heals or permashields or just competitive hp pools?

Because right now that's basically what's available.

this can be lowered to yasuo levels with the use of shields. With a smaller shield they will be able to evade enough damage while still being taken down easily when out of position.

takeZOOOOOO1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rHIs0Eqw,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-11-18T20:21:39.039+0000)

Assassins don't need shields. They should be very easy to kill when they don't position perfectly.

and tanks need to not die, so basically why even have assassins in the game just completely delete them and rename it league of tanks, i mean it already is just missing the name. in the current state of the game if u dont have tanks on your team you will not win its ridiculous

Ralanr3 votes

...so you're saying shields better represent evasion instead of damage mitigation?

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

Mitigation - the action of reducing the severity, seriousness, or painfulness of something.

If you have 10 hp and 100000000000000000000000000000 heals per second and you are hit for 10 damage you are dead

Healing is not mitigation and for healing to act as proper mitigation you would need to give healing so strong it would create the same situation as season 2 when everything was unkillable because they'd heal EVERYTHING back in a matter of seconds

On the otherhand you could have a heal that is faster when your hp is low but I imagine it is a lot harder to both make plays around this, keep this contained to balanced levels, and to make this hidden power source less hidden visually.

Heals also block all manner of damage whereas shields do not necessarily do so.

Ralanr1 votes

...So basically Volibear's passive and the rejuvenation mastery?

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

to start off I should point out that league has ALWAYS ATTEMPTED TO EMULATE/LEARN FROM MMOS WHEREVER IT MIGHT HELP BALANCE

those two things you mentioned, volibears passive and the rejuvenation mastery make it hard for whatever damage is done to stick. The only way you are going to deal with that is if everyone focuses him down or if he just eats more than he can handle. It doesn't care what kind of damage is being dealt or what he himself is doing or building aside from stacking max hp

The hardy guy takes your hits and laughs in your fucking face

the squishies deal tons of damage while dodging yours but when something finally hits they aren't gonna heal it off in seconds.

here's an example from a game I like

darkrunner = pure AD assassin. he's an asshole and nobody likes him because he one shots you and laughs as he runs away dodging most people's attacks. But when he finally takes a hit normally there isn't going to be some massive heal to compensate him that is also active when he isn't engaging the enemy

blighter = sortof tanky fighter assassin. Instead of dodging he just pumps up his defense and uses stealth and mobility and healing or shielding to counter the darkrunner. In this case he's mostly spamming tanky shielding abilities

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG_dWfnbMFA

over and over he gets out of jail free because something misses BUT when something does land the damage sticks and he can't just lifesteal it away and the hp pots aren't going to save him.. at all in this case since they don't appear to be using them

Here's a more direct example though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDOpHpAETR0

here we have parry and evasion.

The abolisher can just absorb a lot of attacks and maybe even heal but they'll have to deal with a mobile opponent. They can get a lot of hits in by hitting from behind thereby bypassing their evasion skills or by just stunning them, abolishers are like tanky fighters with a lot of cc.

maybe not so easy to see if you haven't played but the point is that

tanks get actual mitigation while squishies get evasion.

Ralanr1 votes

But shields are mitigation. And giving them lots of sustain would partially step on the toes of juggernauts.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

shields are in fact mitigation in the literal sense but dodging in a moba is not a practical solution. If someone like Akali got a shield instead of a heal she would actually be a lot less problematic and still be able to do what she used to do as far as pentadunking goes.

Juggernauts would get actual sustain, assassins would get shields.

DrMundo When a juggernaut runs into the fight he takes damage but is healing it off fast and not taking much damage in the first place. You will NOT passively take a meaningful chunk out of this guy. In a normal mmo this guy would have like 50 buffs in the war zone from the supports Sona and would be getting massive aoe heals Soraka to compliment his build and increased healing buffs. But in a moba a simple extreme heal + defensive items is sufficient.

Yasuo When a fast moving squishy runs into battle he dodges some arrows and sword strikes and goes for whatever target hes interested but unlike the juggernaut his or her clock is ticking. The evaded attacks can be represented through a shield. They dodge so much but then they've gotta start eating some damage sooner or later after they go so deep and have a limited time to actually win their skirmishes before they need to get out and go run back to Nami for peels and heals. In an mmo they'd typically just be dodging a shit ton of attacks but would be barraged with so much eventually they'd take a hit that unlike the juggernaut they'd not heal off. But in a moba a reasonably sized shield would be what you need to emulate this effect, perhaps add some ability like what morgana has preventing certain types of cc.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

continued insistance

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

The new tank karma thing is one more example of how shields in moba's behave like evasion in mmorpgs and how hp regen gives too much staying power or rather bursts of hp do.

In fact I'd say tank karma's heal behaves like a shield but worse because of how it appears instantly but never leaves. Damage should stick to squishies and tanky champs that are above a certain % hp I think. The better alternative to CoC might be something like an inbattle warmogs effect as long as the tanky guy is above some amount of flat hp. Like "2000 or 50% whichever is greater."

Danjeng1 votes

While we are at it, let's move Grasp of the Dying into Ferocity.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

grasp of the undying restores % hp which gives resilience, like I said, you want damage to stick to squishies. By this logic it would be a bad idea to move grasp into the damage tree

Danjeng2 votes

Courage of the Colossus gives temporary % hp which gives resilience, like you said. By this logic it would be a bad idea to move Colossus into the utility tree.

Resolve is a branch for tanks. CoC is designed for tanks. A tank keystone for a tank mastery branch. Giving defense which scales off of offensive capabilities is a bad idea, and vice versa. Do you remember last year, a certain class arose... Garen item 3053 item 3071 item 3742 item 3748 Darius

Also, pony would abuse the hell out of Candlestick Jumper.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

courage of the colossus gives damage prevention grasp undoes damage

undoing damage or causing damage not to stick is resilience. shielding is mitigation. Mitigation can come in many forms and occasional but significant bursts of mitigation are more appropriate for squishies.

Examples of short bursts of damage evasion-like mitigation on a significant cooldown or gated in some significant way

Yasuo Evelynn Fizz Katarina Blitzcrank Kled Shen Nautilus Jax Diana Poppy

Shaco Leblanc Zed Vayne

what new Akali could be

examples of more sustained resilience type abilities or combinations of abilities even if they come at some cost

Morgana MasterYi Irelia Aatrox DrMundo Vladimir Garen Nasus Rengar LeeSin Elise Hecarim Gragas XinZhao Zac Ekko

old Akali

The second list includes most of the meta shaping champions that have caused this game to change its course to deal with them.

The former is mostly champs that are in and out of popularity and sometimes nerfed into the ground with a few exceptions. As far as defenses go the champs in the former group tend to not get so out of control with the exception of those who don't rely on actual evasion but rather stealth or some form of untargetability and its usually for a more complicated reason.

Those in the latter group have been absolute balance nightmares.

but looking at it deeper.

Why cant nautilus seem to get buffs? Because his kit is built around this sudden shield is part of the problem. He also has mana issues. His damage is based around his shield though so that's ok sortof. Thematically not too bad but guess what, he's ok because he can actually be balanced around said shield while mundo can't be balanced in such a way even if he is "balanced" overall.

Akali is getting shit on but what if she had a shield instead of a heal? AD scaling as always. Riven does the same but akali's would happen once she hits you.

Riot even released an item for "tanks" that had this effect, item 3053 , but in the end it was squishy marksmen using it not tanks like rangers in an mmorpg.

Over and over again this quick shield burst has proven to be more effective on squishier champs in the long run while tankier ones benefit way too much from too much innate sustain simply because of how everything else is balanced or rather not balanced around said sustain.

When shields are up champs can be given abilities to compliment them Morgana

but this doesn't work quite right when they are also given free sustain Morgana

this would allow for a greater range of base hp and defensive options as well.

Danjeng2 votes

Though I disagree with your suggestions, I admire your perseverance after so many downvotes.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

I've been on this forum for years. Back when people claimed only 4-5 champs could escape from darius if they got pulled I went through nearly every champion in the pool and did some work to figure out who could and couldn't escape.

I was downvoted and attacked for doing so even though my information showed that easily over 75% of the champion pool could do so.

Its not perseverance, I just know better than to let votes on gameplay and balance dictate right and wrong.

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