No, you cannot fix the melee vs ranged problem

CerealBoxOfDoom··16 votes·2,504 views

If you could you need to call the dungeons and dragons guys and tell them they were idiots and you're the god of balance

If you could this problem would have been solved decades ago

The only way to really make everything balanced is to make everything the same, perfect imbalance is the way to go otherwise.

This means that either melee or ranged will be strongest. Trying to balance the two will NOT result in a game you want to be playing.

As it stands ranged champs have an advantage but cannot function on their own which is FUCKING FANTASTIC FOR A TEAM GAME

Then you have games where melee has the advantage where a player is a one man army and everyone else is just the support. Note that supports in this game aren't really supports theyre just budget strategy mages and tanks. Even if you manage the melee is strongest thing you don't solve the problem with your miraculous fix. We will reach a point where there is melee every game

Instead what riot did is gave ranged the advantage and melee the ability to counter in certain respects. It is a reasonable setup and doesn't need major changes. Ranged pokes the shit out of you but if you actually know how to play and get in close its gonna get ugly for the ranged champ. Situational advantage.

71 Comments

Critmaster Garen8 votes

dungeons and dragons is terribly balanced.

quadratic wizards and linear fighters wasnt fun for anyone. i remember playing a 3d edition wizard and except for the roleplaying, the character was pretty much useless throughout the beginning of the campaign, and then suddenly became godlike later and outshadowed everyone else in every single aspect of the game.

it was even worse for rogues, with the class being almost entirely useless in combats at high levels, due to everything being critical strike immune. they were godlike support characters though. but you dont need that when you have an equally high level wizard.

and no matter how much they tried to fiddle with the rules and relaunch the system, they could never completely prevent the fact that someone found some cheese mechanic that made his character completely broken.

i think the closest theyve come to balancing their game was the 4th edition, when all classes were more streamlined.

but the most important part, league of legends isnt comparable to dnd.

1.) dnd is in a sense a coop game, not a pvp game. power doesnt need to be entirely fair distributed between player classes to have fun.

2.) characters that are bad in combat scenarios can still be fun roleplaying them

3.) in league, the melee fighter cant just buy a crossbow and become ranged

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

The game is horribly balanced because they realize that players don't actually give a shit about actual balance. Balanced games are not fun. Tic tac toe is a perfectly balanced game for example.

It doesn't matter what actual solution there is, the point is that if its there its already been found over and over again and has been revamped many many times and then tossed in the trash.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

The game is horribly balanced because they realize that players don't actually give a shit about actual balance.

well, they do in this game.

you cant treat a pvp game like a roleplaying game.

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

You can, in fact league attempts to emulate it. But it doesn't have to be a roleplaying game. I could reference a fighting game if you want. Its the gaming industry as a whole that's had to deal with such things.

The Last Ballad1 votes

You can, in fact league attempts to emulate it.

Then where is my character creation screen? The indepth npc's? Side quests? Steady progression where enemies level up as you do or area levels where the enemies can out level you if you go in the wrong place? Ability to steer conversations through text options?

If I compared a game like Skyrim to League, League sucks on almost all fronts. Why? Because it is an entire different class of game. There are MMO's, MOBA's, RPG's, FPS's, Arcade's... and comparing a Multiplayer Online Battle Arena, which features a few maps and several dozen characters tied together though outside-the-game lore to a Role Playing Game, which is usually open world/divide areas that connect to each other which has hundreds of weapons that most, if not all, characters can use, in which you can decide the path that your character goes... They do not match... At all.

Sure there are similarities, but a owl is similar to a bat as well, and they are very distinct things.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Last Ballad,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fM45459G,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2016-10-28T01:13:32.653+0000)

Then where is my character creation screen?

runes and masteries

The indepth npc's?

shopkeeper

Side quests?

the hunt

Steady progression where enemies level up as you do or area levels where the enemies can out level you if you go in the wrong place?

minions and towers level up

Ability to steer conversations through text options?

not yet implemented, this game is battle focus

If I compared a game like Skyrim to League, League sucks on almost all fronts. Why? Because it is an entire different class of game. There are MMO's, MOBA's, RPG's, FPS's, Arcade's... and comparing a Multiplayer Online Battle Arena, which features a few maps and several dozen characters tied together though outside-the-game lore to a Role Playing Game, which is usually open world/divide areas that connect to each other which has hundreds of weapons that most, if not all, characters can use, in which you can decide the path that your character goes... They do not match... At all.

Sure there are similarities, but a owl is similar to a bat as well, and they are very distinct things.

I'm aware its a different class. That's why I said league borrows or tries to emulate it, particularly the battle aspect

ppl ask why yasuo needs a shield

._. because speedy guyz dodge attacks

why are hooks so broken?

._. because taunts are even more broken

why does akali

._. evasion stat!

These days riot just wants you to break even with your healing somehow and things like item 3046 show up as they try to get rid of alternative life regen methods.

Most importantly, they emulate the stats and try to solve problelms and create art using concepts from MMO games.

Does it work?

I don't give a fuck and they probably don't either, but they do it.

WoonStruck1 votes

Tic-tac-toe is not balanced. The one that makes the first move dictates whether they win or its a draw unless they're horrible at the game.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

its balanced. Going first has no real impact on the game. Having an X over an O has no impact on the outcome of the game

It is all a matter of how focused you the player are. Its not imbalanced its just unfun.

The person who goes second has just as much say over how the game goes assuming both actually know how to play.

LankPants2 votes

Having an X over an O has no impact on the outcome of the game

Dude, do a little research, Tic Tac Toe is a 100% solved game. It's not balanced at all, first move can always win or draw every game, second move can only lose or draw. It's like the least balanced game in assistance.

http://www.chessandpoker.com/tic_tac_toe_strategy.html

Stephenizgod1 votes

Lmfao how is Tic-Tac-Toe balanced? Assuming neither player is an idiot, the person who goes first can never lose, at worst they will Draw. That is horrible balance, the player who goes first always has the advantage. There is literally no point to playing Tic-Tac-Toe unless you are the person who goes first, at least that way you have a chance at winning if your opponent is dumb.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

your argument is that a game is less balanced because you might win if your opponent is dumb..

which is itself pretty dumb designwise which is the given context.

Stephenizgod1 votes

uh no, first off that is not what i said. I said that you ONLY win if your opponent is stupid, there is no "might win", you will win if your opponent is stupid. The chance was whether your opponent was dumb or not.

My argument is that Tic-Tac-Toe is not balanced because one player can never lose as long as both opponents are of equal skill (or in this case intelligence/knowledge of the game). They have an advantage from the start of the game just by being the first to make a move, explain to me how that is balanced? Your argument was that this is balance... So I am not sure what your point is.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

as long as there is equal skill neither player can lose

if there is unequal skill then the more skilled player will win.

Stephenizgod1 votes

uh no again... that is not balance, that is terrible game design. A) Player 1 always has an advantage since they are the only one of the two with a chance at actually winning, B) you don't wan't the best case scenario to be a draw. A Draw is fine if neither player can overcome the other, but it should not be what both teams are striving for, which it is in Tic-Tac-Toe.

An example of balance would be Rock-Paper-Scissors.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

bad game design is not the same as imbalance

Stephenizgod1 votes

imbalance is bad game design though and Tic-Tac-Toe is imbalanced as well as poorly designed.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

imbalance is not inherently bad game design bad game design is not inherently imbalanced

TicTacToe is not imbalanced

AHeroNamedHawke1 votes

{quoted}

imbalance is not inherently bad game design bad game design is not inherently imbalanced

TicTacToe is not imbalanced

One option having a distinct advantage over the other independent of skill is literally the definition of imbalance m9

Critmaster Garen8 votes

{quoted}

As it stands ranged champs have an advantage but cannot function on their own

i really fucking disagree. there are plenty of ranged characters who are self reliable.

i also disagree that the disparity between melee and ranged champions cant be fixed or at least reduced. if riot would just stop removing range penalties from items and masteries.

why did mallets range pentalty get reduced?

why did double edged swords range pentalty get removed?

why did ghostblades range penalty get removed?

why did they prevent maw and steraks from stacking and nerfed the hp, instead of adding the melee tag to what was always designed as a juggernaut item?

why was rylais slow buffed for aoe effects and minions to make the item stronger on specific ranged characters?

sure, if youre just ignoring the issue and remove safety barriers that have been in place for a reason, then youre not going to fix the fucking problem.

CerealBoxOfDoom3 votes

better question

Why didn't any of this solve the problem to begin with.

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

better question

Why didn't any of this solve the problem to begin with.

it did?

ranged champions started to pick up the items and abuse them the moment the ranged penalties were removed. why do you think they didnt buy those items like they do now before?

the moment, the active duration of ghostblade was changed to be the same for melee as ranged, adc jumped on the item, when they didnt buy it before.

JhomasTefferson4 votes

Vayne is a perfect example of self reliant. op said

if you actually know how to play and get in close its gonna get ugly for the ranged champ. Situational advantage.

vayne will e you away, q away, then kite you to hell.

Caitlyn also. if theyre good mechanically they can walk a step and then net you while moving away... then cover their escape with traps.

Ashe can hit you with a few autos, stun you, even at point blank, then use her op q to 1v1 a melee

jinx will just use her minigun and a fucklode of lifesteal to 1v1 you.

I know "team game" but, when trying to climb, people tell me I need to be able to solo carry, and if I am going to be able to solo carry, I need to be able to 1v1 people who are out of position, because my braindead team wont help. If I get within melee range of a ranged champ before I even take any damage, many still possess the tools to kill me. Even if I play the situation well.

I agree with you. Bring back the ranged penalties. Make the ghost hit on guinsoos only apply every 4 hits for ranged, like it did for sated devourer.

Rebonack5 votes

The main problem is the laning phase.

Over in DotA, if you even clicked on someone, let alone try to auto-attack them, you would get dog-piled by the minions out for your blood. That was one of the things I actually missed from DotA in League when I first started played, something I tried to do.

See, over in DotA, if you're a melee hero you click the enemy laner and immediately back off. This pulls creep aggro and they come after you. When they break aggro and return to the creep brawl, those melee creeps are now closer to you with your creeps as a buffer between you and the enemy laner. If they attack, then the dog-piling happens.

Melee can't do this in League. And as a result, if they try to last hit against a ranged for they're going to have a bad time.

CerealBoxOfDoom3 votes

from what I see in pro play vs normal play the difference is that pro players take hits and farm like men while lower tiers back off everytime they receive a love tap

Rebonack3 votes

{quoted}

from what I see in pro play vs normal play the difference is that pro players take hits and farm like men while lower tiers back off everytime they receive a love tap

Neat.

I'm challenging your assertion that there's no way to fix this problem. And the problem is lane phase without a question. It warps the rest of the game.

CerealBoxOfDoom3 votes

my assertion also claims that even if there is a solution it does not lead to anything that keeps a game afloat. Remember that.

Some problems have many unviable solutions

Critmaster Garen4 votes

{quoted}

my assertion also claims that even if there is a solution it does not lead to anything that keeps a game afloat. Remember that.

Some problems have many unviable solutions

if a solution is unvaiable or not, depends on if it is indeed a solution.

just ignoring the problem so so a portion of the player base has mroe fun than another portion the worse and is not a solution.

and fact is, that ranged penalties on items and "melee only" items work.

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

if it worked why aren't we still fapping to the limitations we used to have if that was closer to what we wanted. Why now that riot is explicitly giving whatever we want (or so they say) is that not even on the list?

Rebonack2 votes

{quoted}

my assertion also claims that even if there is a solution it does not lead to anything that keeps a game afloat. Remember that.

Some problems have many unviable solutions

Well, my solution was to just play Dominion, where the Ranged vs Melee problem didn't exist since the 'lane phase' wasn't a thing. Unfortunately that option stopped being an option.

However, if we're just talking about the issues with lane phase on Rift, masteries or items that provide melee champions with extra protection against ranged attacks would help a ton. As would having minion mechanics more akin to DotA's creeps.

FalconPawwwwnch5 votes

Op is trolling

Ranged vs melee is a problem that literally no other moba has except LoL

Nice try

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

he is a troll.

CerealBoxOfDoom2 votes

not trolling, but I imagine i'm speaking in a completely different context than you. I'm talking about a design concept that will never have a correct solution. There will only ever be the favored solutioin

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

not trolling, but I imagine i'm speaking in a completely different context than you. I'm talking about a design concept that will never have a correct solution. There will only ever be the favored solutioin

ok, lets assume for a moment, that were true. even though i think its not.

and the only solution to the problem is accepting that either ranged or melee characters have the edge in this game. which isnt really a solution. its just denial.

there is still no fucking reason to make that difference as wide as the grand canyon.

ranged penalties on items and masteries at least helped make this advantage smaller.

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fM45459G,comment-id=000600010000,timestamp=2016-10-23T05:04:49.793+0000)

there is still no fucking reason to make that difference as wide as the grand canyon.

And yet here you are playing league

I mentioned this in the post.. maybe not in the best way I don't remember that well

There are "solutions" but what good is a "solution" that nobody will enjoy? The more you try to balance something the closer you get to a gamestate where either nothing is different from anything else or everything is just tictactoe which has been found to be repetitive and boring.

Which is why perfect imbalance is a thing to begin with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e31OSVZF77w

just posting this because it can't be posted enough times

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

And yet here you are playing league

actually im not. i stopped playing ranked regularly and later alltogether with the mage update, with only a handful of arams per week, and was putting my hope into the preseason changes to remedy the situation.

but it just looks like its making it worse. at the moment im just more or less on standby concerning this game and im waiting if it gets more enjoyable. if not ill just leave.

but id rather prefer them actually balance their shit. because i did enjoy this game at one point and would prefer it went back to that point.

AHeroNamedHawke5 votes

ranged cannot function on their own

http://i.imgur.com/sFFQbuy.png[/img]

Let's look at the top 10 picks for worlds

Nidalee Syndra Olaf Karma Elise Caitlyn Jhin Jayce Ryze Rumble

You look that over, and tell me how many of those ranged champions are not self sufficient. I had a bigger thing typed up here, but it's just a tirade about this games balance that no one is going to read. I'll just ask you a question.

Did you know that Zed and Yasuo were not picked **once **at worlds? The boogeymen of mid lane that terrorize standard mids with their extreme potential for skilled players, destroying the lives of solo queuers worldwide. Not picked once, because they can't burst from 700 range like Syndra can. This is what happens when effectiveness is not exchanged for safety, as the only way melees can compete with ranged is being more effective once in melee range.

MunchCrunchLunch4 votes

vayne is the best champion in 1v1s. what the fuck are you talking about?

CerealBoxOfDoom1 votes

at melee range?

also you seem to be implying that vayne is ok or even normal

Your argument also doesn't actually refute much. It seems to be nitpicking and not very good nitpicking.. or did vayne become unkillable recently?

MunchCrunchLunch5 votes

getting to the MELEE RANGE IS THE PROBLEM to begin with. please don't go full retard

ZT Xperimentor4 votes

Yeah because it's so easy to dodge those ranged auto-attacks if you aren't jax or yasuo.

D357R0Y3R4 votes

{quoted}

This means that either melee or ranged will be strongest.

LOL SURE, goes to watch dota balance

overall both melee and ranged are picked in competition

goes in league, watch world, 95% of the picks are ranged yeah sure, it's really impossible to balance them both, i agree

The Yetii Rider3 votes

What? D&D has great melee vs ranged balance. A bow will barely deal any damage unless you invest a ton of gold and feats into it. Pick up an axe and you will crush anyone.

The main balance issue in D&D is spellcasting vs non (and how terrible rogue is in every edition but 5th).

WoonStruck1 votes

Okay, let's be fair. You can build a sap rogue and literally knock out anything if you build it right, even things that should be immune, with the exception of constructs.

There's also an option to lower stats instead of dealing critical hits with alternative archetypes. If you do such a thing, you can effectively instant-kill a lot of stuff with stat reductions.

Another option is going swift-scout as a rogue-type character in order to bypass critical immunities with favored enemy.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Response: Rogue is the only 3.5 core class that has a DEAD LEVEL at TWENTY.

I have reached the pinnacle of my potential! I am the strongest rogue in all the land! So what did you get for it? Oh you know...8 skill points.

VictoriousBard1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fM45459G,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2016-10-23T10:07:59.520+0000)

Response: Rogue is the only 3.5 core class that has a DEAD LEVEL at TWENTY.

I have reached the pinnacle of my potential! I am the strongest rogue in all the land! So what did you get for it? Oh you know...8 skill points.

That is why you play Pathfinder RPG instead of D&D 3.5. In Pathfinder, at level 20 a rogue can choose one of three effects every time she sneak attacks a target, one of those effects is instantly killing them (with a fortitude save, of course). The only issue there is that they cannot be affected again for 24 hours, whether they fail the save or not. This is helped by the fact that a lot less creatures are immune to sneak attack and criticals in Pathfinder.

Actually, to be honest, nearly every complaint pertaining to 3.5 in this thread is solved by just playing Pathfinder instead. Paizo fixed a lot of crap that was wrong with 3.5 while not making it feel like a completely different game.

Source: Been playing roleplaying games for 13+ years, including 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, 4e, & 5e, among others.

The Yetii Rider1 votes

Oh I play nothing but Pathfinder. Love me some Pathfinder.

OP was talking about D&D though.

VictoriousBard1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fM45459G,comment-id=00090000000000010000,timestamp=2016-10-23T15:20:59.237+0000)

Oh I play nothing but Pathfinder. Love me some Pathfinder.

OP was talking about D&D though.

Yea, I know that was the comparison, but was just pointing out that most of the complaints are fixed by not playing D&D 3.5. It's surprising how many people still don't know that Pathfinder exists.

WoonStruck1 votes

Pathfinder made pretty much every prestige class outside of ranger prestiges worthless.

Just shoot 20 in your base class. That, and mong/casters are broken. Gunslingers are broken once you get the feats to avoid all of their absurd starting penalties to pretty much everything.

The rest all fall flat in comparison, outside of min-maxed builds for extremely specific purposes, like sap-rogue or high AC sword/board that's useless outside of that AC.

I didn't like pathfinder. Its just less inspired as far as D20 games go.

Oh, and Rogue became even weaker relative to other classes.

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