Jarvan IV: An identity crisis

Jaygo41··10 votes·1,071 views

Jarvan is an interesting champion in League of Legends. He has a simple kit; he has his flag and drag, he has his shield, and he has his Cataclysm. His pattern follows a simple pattern; he EQs in, he autos, and he ults. The amount of variability and expression for a fighter is rather limited, and his skillcap is somewhat limited by this.

I’m going to follow this thought on the premise that he, at his core, is a fighter. However, he doesn’t really follow the pattern of a fighter. Most fighters have something they can do after their gap closer. Lee Sin can E and his everyone around him and slow. Other champs like Vi have auto attack resets and a 3 hit passive to keep them threatening at melee range. Jax has an auto reset, a 3 hit passive, and a time-dependent dodge. Olaf has his Q that he constantly throws, Renekton has his spin, his W stun, etc. These champs have something to make them interesting once they get in. Zac’s Q was even reworked on the premise that after he E’s in, he doesn’t have anything else to do besides ult. Jarvan, however, is in a bit of a predicament. His EQ is his gap closer. However, he’s got nothing afterwards, other than his passive, which I believe to be a little cheesy and not very fitting of his fantasy as a fighter. Utilizing this passive generally means slapping someone, and then waiting to slap them again. This makes for really odd, unfocused gameplay with his auto attacks. I get that the point is to set up his team by lowering their current health, but all this means in a gameplay sense is that he ends up switching who he hits all the time. This is weird gameplay and it doesn’t make much sense to a fighter.

In the current meta, he ends up being either an assassin or a full tank. The fantasy of an assassin is highly unfitting. He’s supposed to lead his teammates into battle with his plated armor and unique two-handed weapon. Why is he taking Thunderlord’s Decree and looking to burst people with his combo? It’s extremely cheesy. The fantasy of a tank is not as unfitting, but not fully accurate. Again, he has a big, sharp, pointed weapon. In his new lore, it states that he was trained by the best Demacian swordsman and is quite skilled. Sounds like a guy that can hold his own. He is, however, only human. His plated armor isn’t nearly the beef that Nautilus’ suit or Gragas’ belly-fat. He’s not an armordillo and he’s not a morbidly obese catfish. Additionally, his kit initially resembled something a tank would have, sporting a shield and passive armor on his E, but the high AD ratios made playing him with a Warrior or an Elder Lizard back in the old days feel really good. Straight up, Jarvan is a fighter. So how do we remedy this weird identity crisis that this champ seems to face? He’s well rounded, but he doesn’t really live up to his fantasy of being a leader or being a fighter.

A trend I’ve noticed among fighters is that they have all 3 of their basic abilities being somewhat offensive. Jax, Vi, Illaoi, Irelia, Renekton all kind of follow this pattern. I’ll give you my observations with his kit/combos/patterns, and feel free to discuss. Golden Aegis feels tacked on. The group slow and the group shield is a great move, but it feels like you’re kind of going to use it every time regardless of the situation Jarvan’s facing. If J4 jumps in, he Ws. If he’s running away, he Ws. If he’s clearing the jungle, he Ws. It reminds me a little bit of Ahri’s Foxfire, an ability that she’s probably going to use almost every time she lands a charm or dives towards a target.

J4’s flag and drag feels signature. It’s the combo people associate with him. It has relatively high counterplay, can be flayed, can be dodged, and it must be perfectly accurate in order to achieve the desired effect. In essence, the combo actually fits today’s game a little bit. We obviously LIKE counterplay, and there’s a ton of it in Jarvan’s flag and drag.

His ultimate, while a bowl of spaghetti to most people, is relatively fitting. It’s often used as a burst tool. That’s fine, I suppose. There’s some fun decision making that occurs when deciding a target to ult. “How can I dunk the most people?” often becomes the question asked in a split second.

So based on my observations, I’ve limited 2 parts of his kit that should be changed in order to accommodate his intended playstyle. His passive, and his W.

However, I’d like to make changes to signature flag and drag in order to accommodate the following changes. Jarvan’s Q needs to have a slightly lower cooldown, slightly lower mana cost, and a fairly reduced AD ratio. It should have moderate to good base damage. The premise of this is so that Jarvan isn’t fully screwed if he misses his Q. Additionally, this should help reduce the amount of full AD Jarvan that pushes the assassin playstyle. Cataclysm would also have a reduced AD ratio as well, but would still keep solid base damage. Personally, I’d put his W on his passive. When he knocks up or Cataclysms a champion or large monster, he sends out a nova that briefly slows and gives a shield based upon his maximum health. This would keep his identity as a teamfighter. It would feel rewarding to land a large knock-up on a number of people. Then, I’d replace his W with some kind of new, interesting offensive damage spell. A couple of ideas come to mind:

  • A Fiora E-like ability where an auto reset leads into two strengthened auto attacks. The first would do current health damage and the following would do missing health damage. The percentages on these could be low, like 4-5% of each.
  • A sweep attack in a cone that may slow, similar to a Camille E.
  • Perhaps a combination of both, a sweep attack that slows, followed by an auto attack that does damage based on maximum health.

The goal of a new, offensive spell would: a. Make his auto attack more interesting and replacing an outdated, and frankly weird, passive. b. Solidify his role as a fighter. c. Increase his reliability by allowing him to do something after he’s EQ’d in.

TL;DR J4 is supposed to be a fighter. Put Golden Aegis on his passive and give him a new, offensive skill instead of his passive that may involve auto attacks. Nerf AD ratios in order to accommodate new move.

14 Comments

Anags2 votes

J4 is fine. He doesn't need to play like other champs. That is just stupid.

He has more than one vIable build which is good because he can change depending on what is needed. That is a good thing.

He also does more than just his eq combo. You can use the same standard to juke people and move around in a fight.

The ult can be used as an escape or to block choke points on top of being an engage tool or to pick someone.

Why mess with a champ that is fine?!

Jaygo411 votes

His kit is dated and has a clear identity crisis. He doesn't fit the bill of a tank like he used to, and building damage on him turns him into an assassin. His fantasy absolutely fits that of a fighter. He is unreliable due to his entire power budget being in 2 moves, his EQ (which is essentially 1 move most of the time) and his R. He has nothing that makes him threatening other than his ult at melee range, which doesnt make much sense for a fighter.

He's fine, but he could be better, cooler, and a more unique champion... It's time to bring J4's kit into the modern days with a couple of changes.

BobaFlautist2 votes

You say identity crisis, I say flexible champion that can build to fit the situation.

That used to be my favorite part of Hecarim too, but it doesn't work as well as it used to.

Erockandroll2 votes

Honestly J4 is pretty unique as it is. And he fits the bill of a Diver, but not in the same sense as a Jax or Irelia. Where I think were J4 is lacking in that regard, is DPS, in dueling power. But the fact that he can Either go Full Tank or Full damage, makes him more fighter than Tank or Assassin.

And really, The Diver role is pretty "Jack of all Trades" as it is. Their mobility and Disruptions in generally enough to serve as a sudo Tank or Assassin depending how they build. It's only that J4 is a little more polar in that regard. But that isn't a bad thing either.

If anything, what I don't feels quite fitting with his kit, is his Fantasy. He's is a Battle captain, and a Prince. So you would think that he would have more supportive functionality. (Rally the Troops) But that would take power away from his general ability to dive. (And since the battle captain kit, was already given to Sej)

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Good post, i love j4 but also have the same thought as you.

Shahamut1 votes

I always felt that J4 should be a Vanguard: An initiating tank, leading his team into battle. Meh, thats just me.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

His E gives attack speed and gives passive attack speed, after ulting you're supposed to smack their face in.

This was very effective with old Youmuu's, you could oneshot somebody, ult another, Youmuu's and auto them to death.

That being said, if he could use Triforce more effectively (higher base AD? Higher base attack speed?), that would be a great way to solve those issues.

Jaygo412 votes

Yeah, his E DOES give attack speed, but increased attack speed is wholefully uninteresting gameplay. Slightly increased attack speed is EXTREMELY lame. Other peoples' autos are SPICY in some way. You got Vi, Jax, Lee Sin even has spicy autos because they return energy. There's nothing exciting about auto attacking on Jarvan. Do you see his weapon? It's huge and bladed and unique. Let's make it a little more exciting.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, his E DOES give attack speed, but increased attack speed is wholefully uninteresting gameplay. Slightly increased attack speed is EXTREMELY lame. Other peoples' autos are SPICY in some way. You got Vi, Jax, Lee Sin even has spicy autos because they return energy. There's nothing exciting about auto attacking on Jarvan. Do you see his weapon? It's huge and bladed and unique. Let's make it a little more exciting.

50% bonus attack speed, plus that passive. I get what you mean though, hmm...

The reduced ratios on Q and R should definitely go into his new W, I like J4's ability to build assassin if he feels like it, and many current J4 players probably feel the same way. I'm not sure about the lower CD and mana cost though, they're already very generous, at 65 mana and 6 seconds at rank 5.

For his new W, what about a big AoE auto attack? Like a built in Tiamat, except different. Jarvan's always been a very powerful wombo champion, especially combined with AD, as with a Cleaver and Tiamat he can easily shred ~50% of someones armor. What if we take that just a little further? New W shreds 30% of the armor of all targets hit for 1 second. After all, doesn't that spear just look like something that would tear and shred straight through armor?

Or maybe some magic resist shred, to make him synergize with AP as well? Hell, why not both (although the duration would probably have to be shortened to .5 seconds if that were so)?

To clarify, his W could be like an activatable Tiamat. The first cast is a smash, doing about half of however much % you wanna shave off his Q and R in an AoE, shredding ~30% armor for a short time (.5-1 second). For, maybe, 6 seconds afterwards, his autos get a Tiamat effect and some attack speed, and do slightly increased damage.

Jaygo411 votes

To address your first point, I understand that Jarvan's build versatility is cool, but at the same time he doesn't ever fit a certain bill. I always thought Jarvan would be a black cleaver kind of fighter because of the sharp weapon and the armor shred, but as an assassin It's weird from a fantasy point of view to have this guy in heavy ass armor running around 1 shotting people and BEING one shot. It would kind of make his armor seem flimsy, which doesn't make much sense. The prince of a nation that leads his army to battle would probably be wearing the best set of stuff they can muster.

I like the idea of a champion being reworked to fit an identity because then they can be tuned for professional play. Jarvan was absurd in pro play because of how generally applicable he was. When they came out with subclasses, they decided that Jarvan was to be a diver. That's fine and dandy, but his kit is still from season 2 and is loaded with all kinds of stuff that pull him in one direction or another. His EQ is a diver ability, his R is a vanguard ability, and his W is a defensive, warden ability. His passive is something an assassin would have because it contributes so heavily to his burst.

This is far too general to be balanced into a subclass. His W is a fine ability, but let's definitively make him a fighter. As was addressed in the original post, fighters have high base damages, low cooldowns, and can build tanky. Let's cater to this by giving him another offensive ability and putting that shield and small slow onto his passive.

To address the second part, that's not a bad idea. I think the idea of shredding armor to set up teammates along with his knockup and ult definitely caters to the "leader" fantasy. One thing I've seen that I've liked from Riot's new champion designs is time-dependent abilities. For example, Camille Q. While a CRAZY busted ability, the idea of having a two part ability where one part takes time and comes after another part is kind of cool, and allows for counterplay. However, it enables the user to show skill in the management of this time dependent ability. I like your idea, but let's try and make his auto attacks a little more exciting. Maybe it's an auto and does the same thing. To clarify, I'm spitballing on the assumption that Martial Cadence as an ability is gone.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

To address your first point, I understand that Jarvan's build versatility is cool, but at the same time he doesn't ever fit a certain bill. I always thought Jarvan would be a black cleaver kind of fighter because of the sharp weapon and the armor shred, but as an assassin It's weird from a fantasy point of view to have this guy in heavy ass armor running around 1 shotting people and BEING one shot. It would kind of make his armor seem flimsy, which doesn't make much sense. The prince of a nation that leads his army to battle would probably be wearing the best set of stuff they can muster.

I like the idea of a champion being reworked to fit an identity because then they can be tuned for professional play. Jarvan was absurd in pro play because of how generally applicable he was. When they came out with subclasses, they decided that Jarvan was to be a diver. That's fine and dandy, but his kit is still from season 2 and is loaded with all kinds of stuff that pull him in one direction or another. His EQ is a diver ability, his R is a vanguard ability, and his W is a defensive, warden ability. His passive is something an assassin would have because it contributes so heavily to his burst.

Well, his R and W are all very helpful in a diver playstyle. Honestly, J4 is what I think of when I think 'Diver'. Diver's do have high burst and completely damage oriented abilities (Heca Q, Vi E), his R is a great secondary burst + lockdown, which helps with the diver playstyle as he's not encouraged to just run away because now he has no more gapcloser, and can still dish out DPS and stick to immobiles.

This is far too general to be balanced into a subclass. His W is a fine ability, but let's definitively make him a fighter. As was addressed in the original post, fighters have high base damages, low cooldowns, and can build tanky. Let's cater to this by giving him another offensive ability and putting that shield and small slow onto his passive.

There's many, many different types of fighters. 'Fighter' isn't even a subclass anymore. Honestly, the only thing I think they're missing is 'duelist', which is basically a diver/skirmisher cross. It's impossible to clump 'fighters' into one catagory. Hell, Wukong and Darius are both fighters, and are incredibly very different.

To address the second part, that's not a bad idea. I think the idea of shredding armor to set up teammates along with his knockup and ult definitely caters to the "leader" fantasy. One thing I've seen that I've liked from Riot's new champion designs is time-dependent abilities. For example, Camille Q. While a CRAZY busted ability, the idea of having a two part ability where one part takes time and comes after another part is kind of cool, and allows for counterplay. However, it enables the user to show skill in the management of this time dependent ability. I like your idea, but let's try and make his auto attacks a little more exciting. Maybe it's an auto and does the same thing. To clarify, I'm spitballing on the assumption that Martial Cadence as an ability is gone.

Sounds good... how about the other way around? Tiamat autos +extra damage on first cast, so smashy autos (to make them more exciting), then after ~2 seconds it can be recasted for armor/resist shred, either in an AoE or on an auto?

Jaygo411 votes

Again, I think his R and his W are good abilities, arguing Vanguard vs Diver is kind of semantics when it comes to his R... I just think his passive is a lame, outdated ability that should be replaced by his W. His new W should be an offensive ability to match, as it matches his character fantasy and his playstyle.

I personally think we're in agreement and we're talking past each other. I do think with the large array of fighters that "fighter" doesn't cut it as classification for all of them, and there's so many different kits for these champions. Just replace his old, crusty passive with a new attack and we're golden. The ratio changes were only for modernization purposes, and may or may not be necessary. IDK. I wanted to qualify a new ability with some kind of nerf in order to keep him in line.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Again, I think his R and his W are good abilities, arguing Vanguard vs Diver is kind of semantics when it comes to his R... I just think his passive is a lame, outdated ability that should be replaced by his W. His new W should be an offensive ability to match, as it matches his character fantasy and his playstyle.

I personally think we're in agreement and we're talking past each other. I do think with the large array of fighters that "fighter" doesn't cut it as classification for all of them, and there's so many different kits for these champions. Just replace his old, crusty passive with a new attack and we're golden. The ratio changes were only for modernization purposes, and may or may not be necessary. IDK. I wanted to qualify a new ability with some kind of nerf in order to keep him in line.

Another thing to keep in mind is his jungle clear -it's not great right now, but his passive definitely helps it. The new W would either help his clear, or cement his identity as a primarily ganking jungler.

Jaygo411 votes

100% agree. I think his clear is his achilles heel on why he doesn't get played as a pro jungler right now. It'd be cool to see something that aided that clear or provided the same kind of support that his current passive gives.

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