Both are horrendously designed and the reason we aren't flooded with threads about both is that people are tired of complaining about them
A couple complaint threads here and there but the week of Zoe's release and Yasuo's hayday doesn't compare
La Bello63 votesRemember when Riot made the new ban system and Yasuo topped at 90% or some crazy high number banrate and then Riot said it was a real eye-opener to how much players hate Yasuo and they would begin planning big work on his kit to make him less frustrating to play against?
yeah......[slayer-jinx-unamused]
ƒrostγ39 votesWell they're both designed by the same guy, so... Sure, they might be fun to play and rewarding when mastered, but for the enemy every move they make is beyond tilting.
2Charmnot2Charm24 votesWell they're both designed by the same guy
Who is also doing the Akali rework which we should see in an couple of weeks... good luck solo laners.
DoktorKaiser14 votesOh my god that might actually make me fully quit the game. I already play like once every 3 days, compared to my previous 5-10 hour addiction. Nice job RIOT, keep it up.
2Charmnot2Charm11 votesHere's an list of his work.
Pre rework 
, Rework 
, Rework 
, 
, Rework 
, 
, Rework 
, 
, 
, 
.
Out of all these champions the only two I don't hate with an burning passion is warwick, and thresh...although i did hated thresh till riot nerfed him enough times for him to be balance, which is around season 5 I think.
GelsominoKiller10 votesRelase thresh was pure cancer. He literally had to lose part of his kit to become somewhat not overbearing. He also underwent several base stats nerfs through the years.
For Kalista, not even that was enough.
I would classify them the following way:
Game warping, lorng term, hard to solve balance problems: relase thresh, kalista, yasuo, relase Darius, reworked morde, Zoe
Great ideas but some risk of being overbearing: Graves, relase Zyra, Graves rework, Cait rework
Perfection: WW (but I am biased there)
Dope Solo5 votesWW is known to be oppressive, but less so after recent nerfs. He solo's the drag at 3, i mean, come the fuck on. But I'd still rather see him in the game than the one button wonder trash 
It Hertz When IP5 votesI mean, at least I can outplay Warwick.
Can't outplay right click.
GelsominoKiller2 votesYeah, I heard he was very strong lately, but being too strong happens to every champion. Even old Urgot had his moment to shine.
I believe that when evaluating a champion, one should focus on the kit and not the current balance, which can flow up and down with items, runes, nerfs to the competition etc.
I think is fine to have moments of strength through the game. In that sense, a lane bully like Renekton in my opinion is a decently designed champion. WW has an easy time jungling and can apply a lot of pressure early game, but he trades that advantage with lackluster lategame teamfight capabilities. Also, even in his strengths he can be played around:
This is why in my opinion WW is a very solid yet very fair champion.
Tormentula2 votesHe worked on 
too but handed him over to somebody else at some point.
Malix Farwin1 votesHere's an list of his work.
Pre rework
Out of all these champions the only two I don't hate with an burning passion is warwick, and thresh...although i did hated thresh till riot nerfed him enough times for him to be balance, which is around season 5 I think.
I noticed you mentioned champions he didn't work on exclusively and pre rework darius no longer exists, the rework made him much worse to play against and CertainlyT had no part of it.
Furthermore, people praised design across the board.
: Haven't heard much complains about her except when she is weak.
The reworks were a group things i am not sure why you are singling him out in them when he wasn't the sole person working on those reworks.
Furthermore i notice that you fail the problem champions that were much worse when they were meta in the past in both kit and to play against. I bet you couldn't tell me the top mid laner right now and who their designer was without looking it out.
MetalGearTeemo1 votesSupports praised thresh across the board
Fixed that for you. The only people who liked Tresh were the people playing him.
Oleandervine1 votesPre-Rework Darius was the poster child for feast or famine. If he got ahead, everyone was dead. If he didn't he couldn't do shit. Pre-Rework Darius was totally awful design, because that was a newer kit that followed the same horrible patterns that old kits like Tryndamere and Jax followed. It was unforgivable for a modern kit to have that kind of pattern, and even more so since CertainlyT built so much power into Darius' kit to compensate for his kiting weakness.
Thresh, on the other hand, was cancer on release. His kit was and still is pretty overloaded, to the point where he can do a lot of everything and doesn't really have many weaknesses. That's why his kit was praised - not because it was balanced, but because people "had fun" with the sheer amount of tools he always had available. Once he got tempered by nerfs over the years, then yes, he's in a balanced state. But it took literally years to get him to the point where he's not the dominant support anymore.
And then there's Zyra. The whole reason she went support was because her launch kit was so fucking overpowered that they had to beat her to death with the nerf bat, and support was the only place she could function after that. Her rework fixed it, and made her a bit more viable in other areas, but to claim she wasn't a sore spot is to be blind.
CertainlyT's MO is that his champions have more cancer than a cancer clinic on release. He doesn't understand checks and balances within a kit (to the extent of "This is their weakness. They can remove this weakness if they use this ability."), and he overloads his kits so much that it's hard for many players to grasp everything that's going on, making them frustrating to learn to deal with. What we learned with Warwick was that there was someone over him proverbially slapping his nose with a newspaper every time he tried to get crazy with Warwick. He expressed that his creativity was somewhat stifled in videos released around WW's relaunch - and this is something he needs all the time. His kits have proven time and time and time again to be terrible for game health that there needs to be someone overseeing him telling him "No! You can't do that!" to bring his designs back down to earth.
SweedishGunner4 votesHow CT even still has a job I'm not sure.
Leto GT17 votesMeanwhile they reworked aatrox because his kit wasn't healthy.
ModAcademy Kayn9 votesYou say that, but you really can't ignore the counterplay that Zoe and Yasuo do have as opposed to Old Aatrox, which includes them not being entirely useless because you were able to outplay them.
3TWarrior3 votesthing is, pretty much ANY ranged champion is "not entirely useless" because they can attack from a distance and yasuo is a problem for the very same thing you are trying to say is old' aatrox's problem: Stat Checking, where even when behind, all he needs is the right item set to hit a power spike
I like how the new aatrox seems from the videos, but not being able to move a champion at all while using an ability that's not an ultimate? that's kind of...weird. I'm also not sure what his gravity ability has in common with Viktor's
Chembaron Yamada3 votesbut not being able to move a champion at all while using an ability that's not an ultimate? that's kind of...weird.
Let's see which champions are rooted in place while using an ability.
Huh, who would have guessed, being rooted while casting a non-ultimate ability is actually not that uncommon. And even more funny: Aatrox actually can move during his Q, thanks to his E, unlike many champions I listed here.
Thilmer11 votesCertainlyT can go away with any bullshit design, that's the sad truth.
Elipo3 votesNepotism
Over Innsmouth11 votesDon't forget to add Kai'Sa to that list. Absolute abomination.
Daddy Ants8 votes[{quoted}](name=Tides of Blood,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3jAaN7mA,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2018-06-30T20:30:38.084+0000)
Don't forget to add Kai'Sa to that list. Absolute abomination.
Kai'Sa was designed by Riot Jag.
Not CertainlyT.
Over Innsmouth5 votesI'm aware, doesnt excuse her.
D357R0Y3R8 votesremember camille :^)
Mordepool6 votesYou,Right
Ifneth6 votesI didn’t understand the continued Zoe loathing until recently, when a Diamond player encouraging me to expand my midlane pool showed me what she could do against a mage.
The combination of her passive and the angling and splash damage of her Paddle Star enable her to deeply zone her opponent with little downtime or risk. None of her hits are especially damaging, but they are so many that you will need to either recall or bring more sustain to the lane unless you play very well.
It’s just not fun to deal with. The counterplay is probably to use your spells on the wave while her Paddle Star is down, accept her passive harass if she uses it on you while you do it, and exploit a waveclear advantage to slow-push the wave to her turret once you’re ready to base.
I can only imagine how annoying the matchup must be for melee champions who must go all-in to kill. Her Sleepy Trouble Bubble can counter their engage and set up a devastating Paddle Star.
Energeia6 votesHello everyone,
The statement I am about to make may be the most ape-ish/noobish/bronzie thing ever but I think I have found out what is the thing I find more annoying about Yasuo. Let me make a list:
s ult to Namis Tsunami so huge sea waves count as projectiles, I suppose...). About his windawall... well, that thing works from both sides. It is not a windwall, it seems to be an inter-dimensional gate.Besides the above list, and issues about his design I am sure I am not listing or even noticing (im a pretty mediocre player, or at least thats what I think), the thing that i find really unfair and annoying about Yasuo is that your own minions become a threat to you if you try to bait in order to make a play (luring-play-style) or just to contest some CS or even defend your turret while your ADC backs to invest the gold acquired.
That, I would say, is the most disturbing thing I find about Yas; his natural ability (since his kit revolves around it necessarily) is that your own minions become enemies to you. What I am trying to say here is that while every champion (or most of them) have to be aware of pulling minion aggro and try not to fight on top of enemey minion waves, yasuo can forget about that awareness from level 2-18 (though this might be a little bit of an exageration).
I dont think there is any other champion who can use enemy minions to gap-close to you. And minions wont pursue him unless he messes up and goes in a dash-frenzy-madness.
Am I right? I dont know. Just discuss it :)
About Zoe the most overtuned thing she has is the zoning-power in his trouble-bubble. I dont think that it is even necessary to hit it; the sole threat of touching it is enough for the enemy team to stay away. Do you want to contest this drake? Ok, come on and... dodge or dream in black and white while you watch your respawn counter reach to 0. Her huge damage... Well, it is well known as a problematic design too, but you can "counter" it with zhonyas (if cd is up and you time it properly).
As I said this might be the ape-ish thing you have ever read around the boards. If so just point the mistakes and misconceptions and I will surely use it to improve myself.
Best regards.
PS: Not a native English speaker. There might be spelling mistakes and awkward grammar constructions but I hope you can understand the post.
Rouwhorst4 votesIrelia has CD reset on her Q when it kills a minion right? Then we got bard Q. Brand E. Sion E MF Q. Malzh E Ryze E Ivern E Trist P, Zac Q, Zil Q Kalista E/Q Jhin Q Jax E Fiddle E Most targeted dashes can target minions
Hong Kong Annie4 votesBut all of those abilities have down times and are fairly predictable, Yasou's is not
Energeia2 votesIrelia has CD reset on her Q when it kills a minion right? Then we got bard Q. Brand E. Sion E MF Q. Malzh E Ryze E Ivern E Trist P, Zac Q, Zil Q Kalista E/Q Jhin Q Jax E Fiddle E Most targeted dashes can target minions
But I would not think that Bards Q is similar in any way to Yasuos dash-fest; i would not include Fiddle either. The thing is that Yasuos can use your minions (which are supposed to defend you and to help you win the game) for: gap-closing into you; boost his mobility; even dive you and then run away using, usually, the very same minion wave that "helped" him to dive you.
I dont know... Maybe is a matter of bias, that I simply hate him... But I would say that he seems to be an extremely safe champion for being a duelist. But now someone might say that he is not a duelist but a skirmisher, and another one can be able to argument and justify that he is a raw-fighter. The issue for me remains the same.
What do you think about this?
Dope Solo1 votesNot sure. There are similar skills like Fizz Q.
Energeia2 votes[{quoted}](name=Dope Solo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3jAaN7mA,comment-id=000b0001,timestamp=2018-06-30T22:44:18.156+0000)
Not sure. There are similar skills like Fizz Q.
As well as Rouwhorst I think that in a sense you are right. But Fizz is an assasin. I think that assasins need to get-in-get-out as fast and lethally as possible. The thing is with yasuo. Is he an assasin? Skirmisher? Raw-fighter? Duelist?
But yeah, you are right as i said. Anyway Fizz Q will make him dash through a minion, right? It is not like he can spam his Q to surf your whole wave to finally tornadoe you up or not, assuming you dodge it. But you are zoned out so... maybe I am just too bad at this game.
mzicio6 votesYasuo could be somewhat okay if he had less safety nets. Zoe has a retarded concept and that's it.
FirewaterDM5 votesI don't really care about Zoe because regardless she's reasonable to deal with, just dodge the sleep and the Q, play a bit farther back, respect her damage and ward so she can't roam easy. Also always be behind minions.
Meanwhile Yasuo stays permabanned when I play soloQ ranked until windwall/his passive is removed from the game. (unless a teammate hovers him.)
TheCodeisCupCake4 votesI also think its because theres so much broken in the game, other broken things are over shadowed by it
tophit4 votesI just ban Yasuo 100%, regardless of whether he does well into my champion or not, all it takes is 1 overextended bot lane or 1 bad play and BANG, double kill for Yasuo, and now he's bursting champions and objectives down thanks to League of snowball.
And they said Yasuo isn't even good because he's never played in competitive, oh wait, yes he is.
What's weird is, there has been acknowledgement that Zoe is way too strong. My question is, how the fuck did she get released with none of the development team realizing what they were putting into the game? "1 hit kill champions. League needs more of these. Lets throw in RNG and a new type of CC that can't be cleansed"
I was reading posts a little while back about how the development team went through a period where they were making oppressive champs like and 
that were either stupidly weak or OP. They said that was their mistake.
And despite they said they had learned from their mistakes, the big ball of cancer known as still gets into the game? Just, wow. At the very least, 
will probably be able to be pushed away from her burst-y play style with some stat shifts, no idea how Zoe will be dealt with.
Elewd6 votesits funny to think about zoe getting released, because nidalee got reworked entirely because the longrange poke that can almost 1shot with 1 ability was awful to play against.
Sex With Annie4 votesYou complain about something, it's broken You don't complain about somthing, it's broken We've come full circle
Barcid3 votesThe only champion that compared in the entire history of the game was Kassadin, hitting near 100% banrates in every single tier until his mini-rework (if you could really call it a rework versus just a small change).
And even Kassadin wasn't hated. He was overpowered. Everyone knew that. But he wasn't infuriating to play against, and he wasn't even great as a stand-up champion on his own - it was just the fact he could blink so far of distances that he would get fed. No matter what, Kassadin would find the opportunity to get fed. It wasn't that you couldn't fight him early or that he out-traded, it's that he could just pick and choose when and where to fight, so a smart Kassadin would just find a way.
Yasuo and Zoe win stand-up fights, and in ways that are completely and unabatedly unfair. Zoe's E - which is "easy to dodge" mind you - can be barrel-stuffed by her just R'ing into your face, immediately throwing her E at you, and then from there you're just dead. Yasuo dashes 97,000 times and then stabs you in the face multiple times, then hits you with one knock-up, ults you, and proceeds to burst you down because Conqueror offers him such absurd damage early it's unfair.
And to go even further, Yasuo at the start of the season was considered trash due to the fact he didn't get the most out of any one rune, and he was still despised. I have historically seen less hate at fucking Fizz than at Yasuo. That is astounding in and of itself.
Bultz2 votesBoth are horrendously designed and the reason we aren't flooded with threads about both is that people are tired of complaining about them
A couple complaint threads here and there but the week of Zoe's release and Yasuo's hayday doesn't compare
This is a very stupid thread. Your telling me the two most played and most popular champions are tolerated? Get fucking real and understand they are the two most loved champions ever.
Jeanne fan club1 votesI'm sick of seeing zoe in both my ranked games and the LCS. It feels like every single game is centered around that champion. I wouldn't have a problem with her if it was just because of her poke, I'm fine with that. I'm fine with getting hit by a bubble from nearly across the map and getting one shot by a 1500 damage paddle star with just a ludens behind it. Its her fking W. I swear it feels like she has 12 flashes to just chase you down and auto you to death with insane movement speed. I've been killed more by zoes who just w spam and run you down with auto attacks than I have zoe's who use e and q combo.
Malix Farwin1 votesI'm sick of seeing zoe in both my ranked games and the LCS. It feels like every single game is centered around that champion. I wouldn't have a problem with her if it was just because of her poke, I'm fine with that. I'm fine with getting hit by a bubble from nearly across the map and getting one shot by a 1500 damage paddle star with just a ludens behind it. Its her fking W. I swear it feels like she has 12 flashes to just chase you down and auto you to death with insane movement speed. I've been killed more by zoes who just w spam and run you down with auto attacks than I have zoe's who use e and q combo.
Every single game huh.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=NovemCaudaVulpis
of the 4 ranked games you had with her in it, you won 2 of them. Of the 2 that you lost she was ahead in kills in 1 and she was feeding in the second. of the one she was head in kills she was 8/6.
In what universe are you seeing her a lot and in that universe is she also performing a lot better than what you have going on in your head because it is certainly not the real of reality that we live in.
Jeanne fan club1 votes[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3jAaN7mA,comment-id=001d0000,timestamp=2018-07-02T03:09:07.315+0000)
Every single game huh.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=NovemCaudaVulpis
of the 4 ranked games you had with her in it, you won 2 of them. Of the 2 that you lost she was ahead in kills in 1 and she was feeding in the second. of the one she was head in kills she was 8/6.
In what universe are you seeing her a lot and in that universe is she also performing a lot better than what you have going on in your head because it is certainly not the real of reality that we live in.
did you seriously just look through my entire match history to find games with zoe in them? what are you doing? yeah, every game with a zoe in it is centered around the zoe, LS said that I believe, as well as a set of casters, don't remember what region though. I never said I see her every game, considering she is almost permaban in my games. Saying that she isnt pick or ban in lcs is just flat wrong. I don't know what you are reading, or why you feel the need to look though my fking match history and analyze every game with a zoe in it but w.e man you do you.
Malix Farwin1 votesdid you seriously just look through my entire match history to find games with zoe in them? what are you doing? yeah, every game with a zoe in it is centered around the zoe, LS said that I believe, as well as a set of casters, don't remember what region though. I never said I see her every game, considering she is almost permaban in my games. Saying that she isnt pick or ban in lcs is just flat wrong. I don't know what you are reading, or why you feel the need to look though my fking match history and analyze every game with a zoe in it but w.e man you do you.
Yes you made a statement as if you are always playing against her when you are not.
Every game with Zoe in it is only centered around it if you make it and your match history proved it, in those games she isnt even the biggest threat by a mile. Its centered around her just about as much as most mid laners. This statement makes 0 sense when in most of her games against you she has either average or near the worst stats.
Also perma banned? She isnt even banned or picked in your current game and 33% ban rate is not perma banned. she is still open 67% of the time statistically yet you only say her 4 times out of 60 games, hmmm.
Lastly even if i were to believe she was "perma-banned" you clearly said "I'm sick of seeing zoe in both my ranked games and the LCS.", you only saw her 4 times out of 60 games and the fact that you don't want to see her further proves your bias against disliking the champion instead of rather she is balanced or not. You aren't in a place to talk about her balance because you hardly ever play against her and you have an obvious biased against her.
Jeanne fan club2 votes[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=3jAaN7mA,comment-id=001d000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-02T04:46:47.001+0000)
Yes you made a statement as if you are always playing against her when you are not.
Every game with Zoe in it is only centered around it if you make it and your match history proved it, in those games she isnt even the biggest threat by a mile. Its centered around her just about as much as most mid laners. This statement makes 0 sense when in most of her games against you she has either average or near the worst stats.
Also perma banned? She isnt even banned or picked in your current game and 33% ban rate is not perma banned. she is still open 67% of the time statistically yet you only say her 4 times out of 60 games, hmmm.
Lastly even if i were to believe she was "perma-banned" you clearly said "I'm sick of seeing zoe in both my ranked games and the LCS.", you only saw her 4 times out of 60 games and the fact that you don't want to see her further proves your bias against disliking the champion instead of rather she is balanced or not. You aren't in a place to talk about her balance because you hardly ever play against her and you have an obvious biased against her.
... I said im sick of seeing her............... How could you possibly prove what I feel by looking through my match history... You can't prove who the biggest threat in a game is by looking at their scoreline... Zoe can one shot a lot of champions with just her ludens, doesn't matter if she is only going even. If you dont think that a 33% ban rate shows that there is a problem with that champion, then I don't know what to tell you.
I don't know what you think you can prove by going through my match history and counting all the games with zoe in it, but I can tell you, I'm still sick of her, and I'm still gonna ban her. I'm still sick of her being pick or ban in LCS games too.
Yeah I do dislike the champion whether she is balanced or not, oh man I sure am biased. OFC I'm biased against her, she is blatantly broken, pick or ban in the LCS.
I don't know if ur some sort of fanatical Zoe main or what but that champion is one of the must insufferable champions to play against in any position, and makes the game completely revolve around her when she is played. That is not just my opinion that the game revolves around her, thats LS's opinion, as well as many LCS casters opinions as well.
Did you seriously just form your entire rant about an assumption that 4/60 games isn't enough to be sick of seeing a champion?