For all our balance criticism, THIS needs to be recognized

Jaygo41·Aug 15, 2016·109 votes·6,044 views

I haven't seen a jungle this balanced for a long time. EVERY SINGLE jungle champion is very playable in the jungle and performs semi decently. Everything from bruisers to tanks to assassins like kha'zix and rengar to mages like fiddle, nidalee, and diana (if you wanna call them mages) and on hits like nocturne, warwick, and xin zhao are all very playable and show pretty solid results in the jungle

Now a lot of people will bring up winrate stats and other bullshit but champion.gg and my experience over during the games this patch have shown me that there's a lot to play right now. I think the state of the jungle and its current balance needs to be recognized

153 Comments

Jhin UItd JFKAug 15, 201645 votes

Watch Riot do a "jungle overhaul preseason 7! we here at rito games think jungle need big big rework 2 make more lc$plays and fun pve experience" xd

WheatloafAug 15, 201638 votes

The jungle's been reworked about as much as Ryze.

ElikainAug 15, 20168 votes

With reason. Jungle for a long time didn't support every jungler type. Because of the changes, every jungler OP said can play now.

TotalJerkAug 15, 201612 votes

{quoted}

Jungle for a long time didn't support every jungler type.

Which makes it all the more sad that in their endeavor to increase the number of viable junglers in preseason 5 they outright made a huge number of junglers unable to even complete their first clear.

ElikainAug 15, 20165 votes

On the contrary. A large portion of champions aren't simply designed to jungle because of how their abilities work, have CD and cost mana. It is impossible to tailor the jungle for every champion through jungle items alone and it stands to reason all these champions struggle until they complete the jungle item at least.

If Riot makes the jungle able to be cleared by the worst champion, then every jungler that can make it in there no problem suddenly has super clear. And then, jungle becomes a super fast, viable role that affects the entire game as champions in there outlevel and start ganking everyone too soon.

warpenguin555Aug 15, 20162 votes

iirc weren't the only ones who could Warwick LeeSin JarvanIV RekSai . ik that almost none of the tanks could

The Yetii RiderAug 15, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jhin UItd JFK,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dXlkj8A8,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-08-15T02:58:16.845+0000)

Watch Riot do a "jungle overhaul preseason 7! we here at rito games think jungle need big big rework 2 make more lc$plays and fun pve experience" xd

"On-hit champions are still being picked after we removed Devourer. This is unhealthy for the game because on-hits are point and click, so we are removing Skirmisher's Sabre. Instead, red Smite now lets you Smite the ground to act like a red trinket, so junglers can play heavy in the vision game (don't mis click and miss smiting dragon!)

Additionally, Gromp's KDA has been looking a little low, so we're giving him 200 extra health and changing his AD to 90 so ADCs stop taking him before lane once and for all. And by ADCs we mean jungle Kindred"

"As you know, the assassin update is coming up. As such we are removing Kha'Zix and Rengar's ability to heal off monsters with their Ws, because they're probably going to be OP anyway."

"See you on the Rift, junglers!"

toxıc sIutAug 15, 201617 votes

in general the jungle is in a good spot but in higher elo it's just the same 4 cancer tier picks over and over again, like it has been with a slightly rotating cast for like, 3 fucking seasons now

Jaygo41Aug 15, 20163 votes

I'll not disagree that it's like that in high elo but a lot of the time that has to do with competitive stagnation and the fact that because junglers don't really get kills in LCS unless they're on a specifically carrying champion, they have to go with stuff that has insane sustain, CC and lockup, or just ridiculous base dmg like graves or nidalee

LankPantsAug 15, 20165 votes

I'll not disagree that it's like that in high elo but a lot of the time that has to do with competitive stagnation and the fact that because junglers don't really get kills in LCS unless they're on a specifically carrying champion, they have to go with stuff that has insane sustain, CC and lockup

If this was true then high CC tanks would be competitive junglers. They're generally not.

To be a competitive jungler right now you need to be able to compete with cancer junglers like Nidalee and Elise in the early game. That is the only prerequisite to being a competitively viable jungler. The vast majority of champs cannot do this and as such can never be picked outside of extreme circumstances.

If you want any diversity in competitive jungling you need to systematically remove the strongest early game junglers. Right now that's Nid, Elise and Rek'sai, once you did that Lee, Graves and possibly a couple of other similar champs would be in the same position. If you once again remove those junglers you might see the viable jungle population rise from 4-5 to 8-9. There is no other way to increase jungle diversity at a competitive level, the early dominant junglers have too strong of a choke hold on the meta and always will.

GULAG 4 UAug 15, 20162 votes

well isn't kha'zix super popular in high elo right now?

Bladerunner7777Aug 15, 20169 votes

The boards only like to complain.

This jungle meta is amazing, Cinderhulk/Sated meta was aids

Golden Tager XAug 15, 20168 votes

Every jungler is good huh. Nunu

I wish, but since Riot gives every jungler utility he will be more useless than they are every time no matter how hard he cj's them. Seriously, too many champs in the jungle just have tons of utility.

Jaygo41Aug 15, 20166 votes

He is good! While his role is EXTREMELY niche, he serves as a really good counter to a couple champs... He's probably in need of a rework and he's not exactly the most interesting, but he DOES serve a purpose.

Gosh DarnAug 15, 20163 votes

I agree with you for the most part but there are a handful of champions who can pretty much only jungle that are performing very poorly. Udyr MasterYi Nunu

Yes they're annoying and a lot of people don't want them buffed, but they are exclusively junglers and they're the only exclusive junglers that are bad junglers at the moment. Nearly every other jungler is either performing well in another role or very close to a 50% winrate and 100% viable in any elo.

Also, Aatrox needs to either be retuned as a jungler or buffed if Riot actually expects us to top lane with him.

God King AatroxAug 15, 20162 votes

look at my past games. Aatrox . In all honestly he does deserve some much needed buffs.

Gosh DarnAug 15, 20162 votes

He's feast or famine so it's certainly possible to gain a massive advantage and carry with him but at higher elos that is almost guaranteed not to happen.

Total EclipseAug 15, 20163 votes

Udyr and Master Yi performing badly....... lmaaoooo NOOOOOOO. AP/Tank udyr is in an incredible spot right now. I've seen tank udyrs 2v4 easily and get out after making a 1-3 trade easily. He does moderate damage while being a completely undying monster and applying strong cc. I'm pretty sure AD Udyr is fine when the red jg item gives a HUGE amount of flat AD and some cdr for udyr to work with. Mind you that your first auto in Tiger strance will do around 250% AD. Yeah the DoT is insane. Udyr is fine.

Master Yi? Think about the insane powerspike this guy gets at level 6. With the Bloodrazor enchant and ulti, you have +100% attack speed for 7 sec. You get a double attack in there and let's say for this example you went in and landed 4 sec of attacks or 6 autos + 2 of them are double attacks. That's 24% of their raw max health from your jg item, 120 true damage from wuju style, 128 true damage from red buff if you have it (16 dmg x 8 procs), 525 damage from the autos alone assuming +0AD from runes and masteries, when at this lvl 7 stage your typical Darius has a base 1060 HP... Its clear that in a 2v1 scenario, Master Yi is going to kill the shit out of you. 250 dmg there is true and the Bloodrazor dmg scales with their tankiness. That is a strong champ with tanks being prominent in top lane.

XxRinkyDinkyxXAug 15, 20162 votes

The biggest buff yi could possibly get is on the pbe right now.

His cancer alpha bug is being fixed. Thank fuck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ8CG-i690A

I QAug 15, 20163 votes

Just won a game as Soraka Support.

ADC went Nami Jungle went Crit-Nunu

Serpents EmbraceAug 15, 20168 votes

I'd hesitate to call it balanced, but you're right in that it's very diverse.

BhagswagAug 15, 20165 votes

I wish Skarner was a little different.

Jaygo41Aug 15, 20167 votes

He'll get another rework eventually... He's just a casualty of Riot's crappy reworks. However, he does perform well, statistically, so he's not necessarily "bad." I suppose I don't really know what you mean by different, however.

LordGeovanniAug 15, 20162 votes

skarner feels bad because unless you are standing in his crystal spire zones he is incredibly underwhelming on his own.

MyrddinAug 15, 20165 votes

The jungle is in it's worst spot i have ever seen

These are your choices

Gragas Nidalee Gragas RekSai Gragas Elise Gragas

yes you can pick other champs, but why? Gragas does everything you could want.

Give Me TrophiesAug 15, 20163 votes

Yay everyone gets a chance to play on the PE basketball team. Too bad the strengths and weaknesses are gone and tradeoffs from each pick based on clear, ganking ability, and counter ganking ability are all gone. Yay everyone gets to play!!!!! You get to make more decisions in fucking rock paper scissors than you do in current jungle.

Variety, or QUALITY? That's the choice Riot is making, and they pick variety.

Jaygo41Aug 15, 201623 votes

people can play what they want and every subclass is represented. I don't understand what you're looking for You might be the only person in history to complain about jungle diversity

RakvirAug 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

people can play what they want and every subclass is represented. I don't understand what you're looking for You might be the only person in history to complain about jungle diversity

Why do you think the OP is complaining? I know it's not worded specifically like "despite everything else like x and y, at least you have to admit z is good".

Jaygo41Aug 15, 201611 votes

If he's looking for a more rigid meta then that's not really what Riot originally intended with League of Legends

Champion picks are an expression of the kind of way you like to play the game, and for a fluid position like jungle that can actually support a number of different kinds of champs, this is the best the jungle climate has EVER looked for me. There isn't one obvious answer any more like there has been for so long. There's not much crowding out, at least in a solo queue environment. In really high elo they obviously stick to the same number of champs, but for the rest of the 99% the jungle is wide open to player expression

ZT XperimentorAug 15, 20163 votes

This season? It was more obvious in previous seasons when they had balance.

Jaygo41Aug 15, 20164 votes

Last season, every couple patches had a jungle meta First warrior, then Cinderhulk, then Runeglaive, then Sated, then a bunch of champion changes happened. Honestly tell me that this jungle has a "meta" right now

ZT XperimentorAug 15, 20162 votes

At least the jungle metas were interesting; marksmen metas have never been interesting. It just turns into a game of capture the flag, whoever kills the enemy marksmen wins, again, for the 5th consecutive year. I can with one word; MOBILITY. Why do you think hecarim, ekko, elise, quinn, & volibear were abusive for so long? They could get around the map quickly, reilably & repeatedly. Do you see any aatrox, chogath, nunu, maokai, & warwicks deciding games nearly as much?

Jaygo41Aug 15, 20162 votes

But they are no longer abusive... Quinn is tough to pull off, Ekko is still Ekko can't argue that one, Elise is great in the right hands, Hecarim was nerfed recently and is dealable, and Volibear no longer is abusive

ZT XperimentorAug 15, 20161 votes

'As abusive', as you said in the right hands, but also in the right situation; more often than not, it's the ones with excessive map pressure that decide matches any more.

Jaygo41Aug 15, 20162 votes

Shouldn't jungle kinda be that way tho? A playmaking position? Rek'Sai, btw, is winning 49% of her games

ZT XperimentorAug 15, 20161 votes

It's been the most varied position, or at least more varied over the years; having controllers like nautilus, carries like yi, and playmakers like hecarim. She's also been nerfed repeatedly while more frustrating cases were ignored.

Jaygo41Aug 15, 20162 votes

I disagree, it hasn't been the most varied on a given patch. Over the years in TOTAL, it may have been, but look at any patch in season 5 and it was only J4 Vi Rek Lee then Sej Gragas Naut then Diana Nidalee then Xin Zhao Noc, etc

ZT XperimentorAug 15, 20161 votes

It was last year, when tanks, carries & controllers were played; around the time of the cinderhulk nerf that is. Previous seasons were a bit constrained depending on how the other meta was swinging, but this meta has been some of the most stale outside of the handful of anti-meta players.

Jaygo41Aug 15, 20162 votes

except all of those actually are getting played right now... Kha'Zix, Graves, and Rengar are picked all the time for carries, tanks like Gragas, Sejuani and Zac are picked all of the time, and control champs like Rek'Sai and Elise can still be played and still give your team a chance to win. You can literally go wherever your team needs right now. It's great

Your auto attack carries like Yi and Xin only get picked when the items they use become problematic... They don't make plays and suffer from relatively poor design

NightmareAmazoXAug 15, 20162 votes

{quoted}

except all of those actually are getting played right now... Kha'Zix, Graves, and Rengar are picked all the time for carries, tanks like Gragas, Sejuani and Zac are picked all of the time, and control champs like Rek'Sai and Elise can still be played and still give your team a chance to win. You can literally go wherever your team needs right now. It's great

Your auto attack carries like Yi and Xin only get picked when the items they use become problematic... They don't make plays and suffer from relatively poor design

True true true but he was talking bout LCS and high challenger picks

Angry MonsterAug 15, 20163 votes

EVERY SINGLE jungle champion is very playable in the jungle

this does not mean balanced at all. Over all it means a weak jungle that allows fighters types (damage/defense) to rein supreme.

BârdAug 15, 20163 votes

No. There are a few champions way on top, the champions who can survive against those top picks, and then the niche and unviable picks.

The go to picks are Gragas is straight up the best tank, crowding out almost every other pick Nidalee basically makes picking any jungler that isn't an early game beast a death sentence. Lee Sin mark 2. (Honestly, moving her into the jungle was one of the worst decisions I have seen made by this game). RekSai manages to stay relevant largely because she counters the the two above, and Tremor Sense is always useful.

Otherwise Graves has a good enough early game that invading him is often suicide. Zac is good for camping and initiation. Fiddlesticks is good for ambushes and suprise attacks. LeeSin is basically an AD version of Nidalee with a roundhouse kick. Ekko is very good at abusing pretty much any overtuned item in the game.

Meanwhile, Aatrox Amumu AurelionSol Chogath Diana DrMundo Elise Evelynn JarvanIV Jax Karthus Kayle Malphite Maokai MasterYi Nasus Nautilus Nocturne Nunu Olaf Pantheon Poppy Quinn Rammus Sejuani Shen Shyvana Sion Skarner TahmKench Teemo Trundle Tryndamere Twitch Udyr Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Zyra (and several others) are all champions who have seen success in the jungle in the past, but now serve little purpose. Either they are outclassed by others in their role, they are crowded out due to their weak early clears, or they have simply been nerfed into unviability. "I can't pick Amumu, they will just pick Lee or Nid and then kill me." "Why should I pick Sejuani if Gragas exists?" "Aatrox would be a PERFECT pick here... if he did anything." Not to say that any of these are BAD jungle picks (except Aatrox, he just sucks). They are simply niche. Jarvan provides great initiation, good durability, and good damage; he is a good champion, but why pick him over Gragas, who does the same things? Why pick Shaco to pressure early when you could pick Nidalee and do it twice as well?

LuunaLilyAug 15, 20162 votes

I have to say it might be because of the items. All of them seem fairly balanced now. Now I can start recovering from my devourer trauma... Ooh and bloodrazor made jungle twitch a lot more viable, always a plus in my book.

bill84Aug 15, 20162 votes

It also made jungle Kog better

LuunaLilyAug 15, 20163 votes

{quoted}

It also made jungle Kog better

Mhm, really good for any jungler that applies on-hit effects quickly!

ÈvilMortyAug 15, 20162 votes

Rengar Because insta death on the adc with no counter play except a item 3157 is balanced

Jaygo41Aug 15, 20166 votes

Bit of a red herring, don't you think?

xxxDogmanxxxAug 15, 20162 votes

I dunno about that man. God knows I love that mofo Xin Zhao (I got Mastery Level 7 and 600+ games on him), but he feels so shitty to play right now in Diamond 1 and above. In my main account, picking him feels like an auto-lose. I nearly always get outjungled by the "meta" junglers, and when I play the meta junglers myself, I do much better with them than I do with Xin Zhao. How sad is it that I can't seem to win with my main anymore?

The EcdysiastAug 22, 20161 votes

Well you picked a very stiff main. He's stuck in a strict AA fighter build path and as an AA based fighter, his abilities don't allow for you to outplay anyone--short of knocking away anyone you're not auto-attacking or ward+E to a jungle monster.

Lee Sin has a strict build, too, but his incredible mobility and multi-use ultimate more than make up for that. Your problem is the same problem anyone who mains Jax/Xin/Irelia has. Their ability to win is completely determined by the current meta's non-crit auto attack items.