I will literally take Lee, Elise, Zac, Sejuani, and Rek'Sai

Jaygo41··76 votes·19,105 views

Over Graves Kayn Taliyah Kindred any day of the week. This jungle meta absolutely reeks

123 Comments

Fear the Kayn36 votes

What's wrong with Kayn? He's always been one of the most balanced champions in the game consistently sitting around 50% winrate almost perfectly. He's also ranked 23/44 overall for junglers, not sure why you think hes OP.

saltran17 votes

Agree.

And Kindred right now on soloQ is good but isn't dominating anything unlike Graves, I dont quite get this post.

GayFluffyUnicorn31 votes

Cuz especially rhaast is incredibly overpowered and bullshit but overshadowed by the fact that 90% of kayns are trash or go blue because they snowball.

Fear the Kayn13 votes

{quoted}

Cuz especially rhaast is incredibly overpowered and bullshit but overshadowed by the fact that 90% of kayns are trash or go blue because they snowball.

Rhaast has to be strong. Kayn has pretty much no early game, and pretty bad early game ganks. All of his power is in his transformations. Rhaast is hard countered by a simple summoner 14 or item 3076.

Zero Skill Tank2 votes

item 3076 doesn't do much against Rhaast, the debuff lasts only a second. Rhaast will get full heal on ult every single time, 2 full rounds of basic ability healing if he is not severly brain damaged (one on engage, second after ult) and if the player actually has more than 50 games on this champion they can stop using autos for a second (bonus points for abusing W cast time to make it even less of a pause) any time and get some more, most item 3076 users don't have nearly enough mobility to escape him anyway.

saltran3 votes

item 3165 item 3123 are better examples to how counter Rhaast than item 3076

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

Honestly. We don't even get a passive until we get a transformation.

rtbf2256182414 votes

Oh boi here we go again, huh? Are you one of those Mr.generico players who know nothing about champion strengths/weaknesses?

Rhaast is complete garbage against squishy comps and Assassin is complete garbage against tanks. That is literally the most general pro/con i can give. Rhaast is also slower but gets lifesteal as a tradeoff. Assassin is faster and does 2x damage but doesn't penetrate armor and is squishier.

Read the fucking passives please!

theChibiTina1 votes

Don't forget that Assassin Kayn gets max 8 seconds of burst if you time his passive, ult, passive reset just right. Then he has to run away until his passive returns because he can't do much without it.

rtbf2256182411 votes

As a general rule of thumb, you want to assassinate your target before they can react or before their allies can react and protect your target, in addition, you want to get out.

Timing the passive is something you can do when your opponent is engaging in a lost 1v1 with you and has no idea that you are obviously winning the fight.

theChibiTina1 votes

Yeah. I was just using that as reference to the max amount of time you can make his burst last. lol. I do appreciate the advice though. I mainly know a good bit about Kayn because my friend is a Kayn main. I'm not nearly as good with Kayn as he is. Kayn requires a lot of understanding your abilities, match ups, which form to take into different team comps, who your targets are gonna be based on the form you take, different item builds, etc.

rtbf2256182411 votes

Yeah but it's mostly about buffering your abilities once you've learned his essentials like the ones you listed.

Beyond that, just try not to fuck up your E+Q combo as it is bugged since release, unfortunately.

theChibiTina1 votes

Lol. Kayn has a lot of bugs. Like his ult occasionally not dropping turret aggro. Or his Ult just not going off at all (shows the arrows and the ult button colored, but won't activate).

rtbf2256182411 votes

Idk i've never had any problems with his ult. It doesn't dodge turret shots though so maybe that's where you're getting that from.

But the bug with his E is 100% reproducible and i have to delay my abilities to stop it from happening every time.

theChibiTina1 votes

His ult is supposed to make him untargetable. That includes turret shots. I think the bug mostly happens if he's already taking turret aggro. I've never had it aggro onto me during the ult duration if I've used it outside turret range and then they walk under the turret. I don't usually turret dive so I'm not sure if I've experienced the bug, but I've seen videos of people ult and dying during their ult to turret.

rtbf2256182411 votes

But..it's not a bug. It does make him untargetable but not like it makes Fizz untargetable. Zed's R doesn't make him invulnerable either. Kayn can still die to a turret shot inside his ult just like Zed can but it will drop aggro because he can't be continuously fired at while being untargetable...hence the name, untargetable.

I know it's annoying. But it actually works like that.

theChibiTina1 votes

No. I know the last shot should still go through if its been fired already, but then it should drop the aggro. I've seen videos where this doesn't happen and it continues to keep shooting. That's what I mean.

rtbf2256182411 votes

But..Kayn's ult ends with a damage dealing effect....?

Turrets aggro enemies who deal damage to allies in it's range...?

Unless you mean it somehow keeps shooting at Kayn while he is inside/above the enemy he is ulting. That has never happened to me before.

theChibiTina1 votes

Yeah. That's what I mean. While he's inside them. I haven't had it happen to me either, but I have seen it happen. I don't think it happens often and that's why they haven't fixed it, but it does happen occasionally.

rtbf2256182411 votes

Well idk. That E+Q bug is literally interfering with my game every single game.

I've yet to see that ult bug, which could be pretty disgusting but luckily i've never had that happen to me.

Malix Farwin1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fear the Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FsgQng05,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-06T06:51:28.921+0000)

What's wrong with Kayn? He's always been one of the most balanced champions in the game consistently sitting around 50% winrate almost perfectly. He's also ranked 23/44 overall for junglers, not sure why you think hes OP.

Well to be honest with you, two out of that list is slightly overtuned Kayn (mostly Red) and Kindred . while the other 2 are the bigger problems Taliyah and Graves .

BrightWîngs36 votes

I like Kayn but he is a little busted rn but id KILL to be able to play Ivern and not be low key trolling

Karn Bishop6 votes

No ivern for you, unless they rework his camp stealing ability so he can't smite an enemy camp if the enemy is within a challenge range and sees ivern. When you can steal camps and your abilities are strong you auto win games by putting the enemy jungler behind / killing him given how mobile most laners are now days.

I don't hate ivern i just hate the fact his kit can even allow for enemy camps to be taken uncontested with the only possible way to "prevent" it is by always being 4-5 seconds ahead of ivern to arrive where he will before he gets there which transforms the game into a keep that car in sight chasing mission or lose the moment your LOS vanishes type game and nobody enjoys that stuff besides for sadists.

Sexy Jack Rabbit19 votes

Yes. Please. Return Taliyah mid lane to us [sg-janna]

SweedishGunner7 votes

If she comes back mid she needs to do more than mindlessly push and roam, it's not fun or engaging.

mack911213 votes

It's only graves man I ban him every game and the game feels fair without his existence.

Arcanine194 votes

{quoted}

It's only graves man I ban him every game and the game feels fair without his existence.

I used to do that but now kha got buffed cuz riot balance team knows what they are doing...

BugsLivesMatters2 votes

Don't you LOVE it when shit like that happens? There's a cancer champion that you have sworn an oath to yourself to ban without mercy, and then POP GOES THE WEASEL.........another cancer champion pops up and now you have to shoot yourself in the foot and pick which one you prefer being raped by.

mack91121 votes

{quoted}

I used to do that but now kha got buffed cuz riot balance team knows what they are doing...

Kha was doing what he was doing before that buff stealth champions are just such a problem in soloq since they thrive in poorly coordinated environments

Arcanine191 votes

{quoted}

Kha was doing what he was doing before that buff stealth champions are just such a problem in soloq since they thrive in poorly coordinated environments

and now hes doing it even better

AggressiveWolf2 votes

At this point I feel like Rot just has a big wheel with assassin champions stuck to it. They spin it and buff the whatever the arrow points to. This time it landed on Khazix. Will probably land on Talon next time

Arcanine191 votes

And probably because he got a championship skin, I hope riot reverts buffs after worlds

Hi lm Zoe8 votes

Kayn is a fair to play against jungler Kindred is a fair to play against jungler Taliyah is a fair to play against jungler But on the other hand... Graves isnt

AggressiveWolf10 votes

Kindred? no. very no.

Hi lm Zoe2 votes

{quoted}

Kindred? no. very no.

I never had problems with her

Chembaron Yamada17 votes

*them

Respect the duality, dude.

dome0253 votes

Which duality? With all the focus on the lamb no wonder everyone thinks it´s just her and a spooky ghost pet which looks like a wolf. You move the lamb, you autoattack with the lamb, you dash with the lamb, you save everyone from dying with the lamb (nice grim reaper who does this by the way).

While wolf gets some playtime if you use W and is allowed to do the third empowered autoattack of your E, while levitating around lamb most of the time with a cloud as his model.

Everything around Kindred is centered around lamb. So why do you expect people to call Kindred them instead of her.

They are relatively new but needs an Aatrox level update. Major gameplay changes to better deliver on their theme and fix some gameplay issues (hunt mechanic is rather a gimmick and unhealthy) and perhaps if even needed some slight visual changes to support those gameplay changes. While wolf gets neglected, his appearance/visuals is kinda iconic I would say. So perhaps his model shouldn´t change but he definitely should have more impact gameplay wise with visuals which support his impact.

Bob the Toastr3 votes

Though I agree that Wolf could be better utilized, the abilities are split evenly:

Passive: both (lamb for champs, wolf for jg monsters) Q: Lamb W: Wolf E: Wolf R: Lamb

Kazekiba4 votes

The problem with this is that Kindred isn't a spellcaster, she's an auto attacker. Also Mounting Dread is 2/3 Lamb, wolf only applying the execute after 3 autos and initial slow

Chembaron Yamada5 votes

I know that alot of people see Kindred that way, but I kinda have a different opinion.

How I see them: Kindred are a personification of the Yin and Yang thematic, both visually and philosophical. They always represent clear opposites. Wolf is the male part, Lamb the female. Wolf hunts down these who run away from death, Lamb gives peace to these embracing her.

Wolf is the emotional part, who knows little. That's why he always asks Lamb so many questions. Vice versa, Lamb is the knowledge, but she doesn't understand feelings. That's why she asks Wolf for example what tears are.

Wolf is wild and hard to control, Lamb is calm and focused. And that is a good explanation for me why the player control is focused on Lamb and Wolf is AI. The calm, intelligent and calculating half, Lamb, is the one we are controling. The wild, aggressive and uncontrollable half of Kindred, Wolf, is there, but we don't directly control it completely.

From this standpoint, it makes sense for me. And the skills are evenly split between Lamb and Wolf.

They share the passive: Lamb, the intelligent and calm side, you, are marking enemy champions for stacks. Wolf, the wild and uncontrollable side, randomly selects jungle creeps for stacks.

Q is dedicated to Lamb. W is dedicated to Wolf, so is the E. R is dedicated to Lamb again.


And about the thing that a Grim Reaper shouldn't save someone from dying: There are actually quite some tales in folklore, in which the Grim Reaper decided against taking someones life, because it "isn't their time yet" or other reasons.

Death can be cold, gruesome and terrifying. But in most stories, it is also one thing: fair.

dome0251 votes

First: I think you have a pretty good interpretation of Kindred and I admire that you like them how they are.


How I see them: Kindred are a personification of the Yin and Yang thematic, both visually and philosophical. They always represent clear opposites. Wolf is the male part, Lamb the female. Wolf hunts down these who run away from death, Lamb gives peace to these embracing her.

I would say many players see the Yin and Yang thematic in Kindred but more superficial than you do. You have a deeper and better interpretation than most others.

However it feels like the execution of the uncontrollable wolf and the calculating lamb could have be done better. With the current execution it feels like wolf isn´t important.

Why does it feel like wolf is unimportant? Because everything lamb does has some significant impact on the champion.

Lamb has:

Has control over the health bar/ only her hitbox counts - If a skillshot hits lamb Kindred gets stunned or loses health. Wolf has no hitbox. Your enemies never aim for wolf never click on wolf to autoattack Kindred, which contributes significantly to the Kindred is the lamb thinking most players currently have.

Movement command - It´s the most basic command but also the most impactful command. You use it 24/7 in LoL (except you are post 6 urf Kassadin). And while it´s something we don´t really think about, it is a significant part of a character.

Why is it lamb exclusive? Because lamb does something, if you use it you see lamb walking through the rift while wolf is some addition which tries to stay close to Kindred.

Autoattack command - Similar too the movement command. It´s one of the basic things which is impactful (especially when your champ relies on them) and which you use 24/7 as an ADC (like Kazekiba mentioned Kindred isn´t a spellcaster). It´s like the movement command a significant part of a character.

Passive - With which you actively choose a champion,

Q - Is a mobility spell (not just a movement speed buff but a dash). If you use it right you can survive dangerous situations or get a kill, if you use it wrong it can lead to your death. The dash feels gameplay wise and animation wise really impactful.

R - Has the potential to warp entire teamfights. You can save allies, enemies and neutral units from death. It´s pretty impactful gameplay wise. Not to mention that ultimates are normally the "special" part about a character which is quite important and get some additional attention.

Wolf has:

Passive - With which you can´t actively do something. You interact with it but you spend less time thinking about it as if you do when you mark a champion.

W - Does some additional damage and enhances Q. Which leads to Lamb using her Q more often; which leads to Lamb getting attention/recognition while wolf actively does something. Also lamb has still the spotlight because you move with her.

E - Lamb does 2 autoattacks and then wolf has finally one attack which again does a bit additional damage. (Damage is impactful but compared to a stun or a dash I would say it feels less impactful, especially when you already do a good amount of damage through your autoattacks.)

I find the idea of Kindred interesting. But I can´t stand her gameplay. It feels gimmicky/unhealthy (hunt mechanic) and lackluster. Kindred has some potential but they didn´t really use it, that´s what I´m disappointed about the most.


And about the thing that a Grim Reaper shouldn't save someone from dying: There are actually quite some tales in folklore, in which the Grim Reaper decided against taking someones life, because it "isn't their time yet" or other reasons.

The Grim Reaper decided to not take someones life. The grim reaper didn´t actively saved someone but recognized it wasn´t the persons time to die and did nothing because of it. The Reaper didn´t took the person with him nor did he save him. He just left the person alone and waited until it really was the persons time to die.

That´s what I understand from what you´re saying. However I don´t know the folklore and can´t read it for myself to better understand if the reaper simply recognized it wasn´t time for the person to die and did nothing until it was time for the person to die or if the reaper actively saved the person from dying.

BugsLivesMatters7 votes

Kindred is just an unhealthy champion. As much as I love her theme, I absolutely hate it when I see the enemy pick her. The whole fucking game revolves around not letting her get stacks otherwise she just snowballs out of control.

There have been so many matches where I denied her stacks ruthlessly for the first 20 mins or so....only for her to get a few free stacks while I'm helping my team or securing objectives and then she becomes fucking unstoppable. It just doesn't feel fair to counterplay her all game, only for her to get those stacks eventually....simply by virtue of you not being omnipresent ffs lol

Mael Jade8 votes

Graves? Yes please, Riot should stop ignoring their baby in the jungle. "Oh, you´ve been overperforming for ages and oneshotting people with Dark Harvest and Stormrazor? Stop that, we are going to slap your hand and take 3 AD away from you" while Sejuani was gutted down to a near unplayable stage where her W was the only spell not nerfed because of her pro play dominance

WeepinShades8 votes

Lee is literally the most played jungler so you're in luck

Daddy Ants7 votes

I'd take Ashe Caitlyn Vayne Twitch Tristana over

MissFortune Jhin Lucian Kaisa any day.

ankoanko196 votes

I'd take Lucian Ashe Jhin Jinx over Ezreal Caitlyn Tristana Twitch any day

NichtHurz13 votes

Honestly...fuck Tristana. The jump+her ult make her so frustratingly safe to play, especially if she has someone like Rakan, Alistar or Janna with her...

ankoanko192 votes

Caitlyn too. Nevermind how these 2 characters are so annoying in lane and lategame.

Naymliss7 votes

Get trist off that list and I'd agree.

An adc who can't be punished for positioning mistakes in fights due to her insane range, long range escape, and self peel is frustrating to deal with.

The Trent7 votes

I think you guys are showing a prime example of the grass is greener on the other side. Not to mention tank jungle carries become harder and harder to deal with the higher up the ranked ladder you go. If you think they're annoying in your elo, wait till they learn how to peel.

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