Why Sated Devourer's Phantom Hits Violate Riot's Expressed Ideas About "Balance Levers"

TotalJerk··14 votes·1,328 views

I recall Riot's design team often talking about "balance levers" when discussion their champion designs. The basic idea from what I understand is that it's beneficial to design a champion with as many directly nerfable/buffable aspects (scaling/bases/ratios/ranges/cooldowns/durations/percentages/etc.) as possible as this makes the champion far easier to balance when the need arises.

The core problem with Sated Devourer is not the stacking system, nor is it the on-hit magic damage. It's the fact that phantom hits cannot be nerfed. Phantom hits simply do or don't. The only way to technically nerf something having too much synergy with phantom hits is to nerf that something, making not just Devourer itself weaker, but also making the target of the nerf weaker without Devourer, as well. Making the item slower to stack simply delays the problem instead of fixing it. Toxic gameplay is still toxic gameplay be it at 20 minutes or 50.

31 Comments

Sona Ping8 votes

{quoted}

I recall Riot's design team often talking about "balance levers" when discussion their champion designs. The basic idea from what I understand is that it's beneficial to design a champion with as many directly nerfable/buffable aspects (scaling/bases/ratios/ranges/cooldowns/durations/percentages/etc.) as possible as this makes the champion far easier to balance when the need arises.

The core problem with Sated Devourer is not the stacking system, nor is it the on-hit magic damage. It's the fact that phantom hits cannot be nerfed. Phantom hits simply do or don't. The only way to technically nerf something having too much synergy with phantom hits is to nerf that something, making not just Devourer itself weaker, but also making the target of the nerf weaker without Devourer, as well. Making the item slower to stack simply delays the problem instead of fixing it. Toxic gameplay is still toxic gameplay be it at 20 minutes or 50.

The point about Phantom Hits is very interesting. It's a nice observation. And not because I don't particularly like the Devourer type item concept either.

However, the larger argument does not function. It does not violate what Riot has said about balance levers and there are multiple balance levers for the item including: Gold cost Combine Cost Build path Bonus Attack Speed Base on-hit damage Total on-hit damage On-hit damage scaling Number of take-down stacks Number of take-down stacks granted Number of attacks to proc

And others I have likely forgotten. There are even more that could be potentially added if Devourer is a balance problem, which needs to be demonstrated. The problem is that your core argument:

There are no balance levers and "the fact that phantom hits cannot be nerfed"

Is false and, specifically, Riot HAS nerfed the Phantom hits before; they nerfed the number of attacks to proc.

TotalJerk2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rFBepzIh,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-04-13T04:57:06.992+0000)

There are no balance levers

Blatant and probably deliberate misinterpretation of my argument. Also none of those levers you listed can do anything in scenarios where the phantom hit itself might be intrinsically to strong thanks to whatever on-hit it might duplicate. Another issue is that raising the number of hits to proc it to 3 on a lot of melee champions would make it effectively worthless. That nerf doesn't just simply tone down the item, it outright destroys it in some aspects.

Sire Hippington1 votes

What you discribe is not the lack of balance levers, but a to extreme synergie, leaving the item to powerfull for those that synergies well with it and ok for those that don't. As a result, either the champs that synergies heavily with it get nerfed, so they are usless without the item, or nerf the item so the 'abusers' are balanced while it becomes worthless on the rest. The main issue here is that devourer offers a powerfull on-hit that synergieses with any kit that amplifys on-hit, like Shy Q, Yi passive or Kog W. At the same time, it also Amps on-hit effects, so it synergiese well with on-hit that already is in the kit like shy W+E, yi E, kog W or xins W. The issue is that few champs have both, an on-hit and on-hit-amp in their kit, and those few double down on their synergie with it. Just how rageblade or gunblade are ok for champs that only scale of either ad or ap, but damn strong on those that scale with both.

Espy Psyche5 votes

The problem's not Sated Devourer -- it's Guinsoo's Rageblade. This was established before the first Guinsoo's nerf when the cost was increased from +750 to +1050 combine cost. The stats on Guinsoo's are just too strong. It doesn't matter how much it costs, it's still going to be too strong. Until stats are reduced on Guinsoo's, this is going to continue.

Sated Devourer is fine with Nashor's Tooth, Wit's End, BotRK, etc., it's just Guinsoo's that pushes it over the edge.

Irelia Bot2 votes

Please tell me the last time you got distroyed by any Yi, jax or Shyvana who did not have Sated Devourer to amp up the power of Rageblade to get 3 on hit's for the effort of 2 hits.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Tell me when was the last time you were wrecked by a Kog'Maw who didn't have Devourer but had Guinsoo's

Or when the last time you got wrecked by a Devourer jungler who *didn't * have Rageblade

Irelia Bot1 votes

All you can come up wit his a champ who riot has not been able to reach any real level of balance with this season? If this is the only champ who is breaking rageblade on it's own then fix kog. His balance has been majorly screwed over by this season and he needs more work.

Take away Sated and everyone who depends on Sated + rageblade will be more then likely ineffective due to getting nerfs only given becasue this comb is too good and since sated is a literal 50% damage boost to on hit effects.

The only champs who ever seem to build Rageblade in top lane are Irelia and jax and it does not feel good at all past laning phase. We want Trinity back to what it was but we build rageblade because we have too if we want to have a good chance at winning lane.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Ok then. So then what does it say when champions like Tryndamere are building it? or the fact that lane Xin, and Kayle are building it as replacement for their old standbys, or that Rageblade Xin is still able to go the "Rageblade-tanky" build and still be a problem without sated?

The problem isn't Devourer. It wasn't a problem for all but the lowest player levels last season, and now all of a sudden it springs up, when an item that just gives too much damage, allowing them to build more durable without sacrificing damage, negating the one weakness those junglers are supposed to have

Irelia Bot1 votes

It says that split pushing is way to easy and effective currently. That is literally all a most Trynda players ever do these days.

Kayle has had Rageblade as one of her bread and butter items on and off for years. Remember her old passive gave AD from AP and AP from AD. She jsut happens to have too good of synergy with it currently.

Xin is almost always going jungle and getting Devourer. Please tell me how he is not in the same boat as Jax, Yi and Shyvana.

THe only nerf I could see justified to rageblade is no more AoE damage when fully stacked.

5050BS1 votes

No they BOTH are a problem.

Sated is a stupid idea. ONLY way to balance it is to make it only proc once every 1.5s This is what they did to caster proc items so why not to auto attack items.

Making it proc only once in X time they can balance its power because it does not have stack scaling issues.

Rageblade was a ok item but its just too good. They need to lower the bonus AP and AD and lower the AOE at full stacks.

Its the only way to balance these. Problem is that the min/maxers will drop the items like a brick.

Pants are Dragon has said he only plays and picks OP champ/Items and will not pick them if they are nerfed. These kinds of people are why the game is crappy and why the balance team needs to get off their asses and actually do their jobs and do it well.

Things should not be balanced around a (easy champ, mid champ, skill champ)

They need to rework mechanics and change all spells/items to follow rules for these mechanics.

Like If a champ has a stun then that stun needs to be a skillshot and scale 1s-1.75s, Damage scales with CD If a champ has a root then it can be single target scaling 1.5-3s if multi-target then 1s-2s, Damage scales with CD

Everything becomes uniform and balance able.

TotalJerk2 votes

Guinsoo's is also a problem, and honestly I hate that item not only for it's absurd efficiency, but also because it essentially gives splitpushers a fury bar.

Irelia Bot3 votes

THIS

This is why I keep saying Sated Devourer is the problem and not rage blade. You can nerf thigns on rageblade but the phantom attack unless you make it every third or 4th attack ca nnot be really nerfed and that would be a huge nerf to the point where the item would not be effective at all.

DropFill3 votes

All on- hit effects were balanced around applying it once in a while. But sated devourer just breaks it, making it apply twice, which only would happen if you atk speed was doubled. The item should be deleted. A atk speed item in jungle is necessary, but devourer was/is stupid

Irelia Bot2 votes

Deleted? Only the Sated part needs to be deleted. Reworking Devourer to be a slower stacking item that is more rewarding for objectives and kills/assists without any sudden major boost of power? That would work.

QjTHqo3RTq1 votes

They did this, and it was old Wiggler's Lantern, and it didnt work

Irelia Bot2 votes

Wiggler's Lantern in season 2 was all around good outside of the RNG factor.

Riot always goes overboard with nerfing this kind of jungler item or do you not remember Feral Flare going from OP to UP because of changes?. There should be a limit on how powerful it should be able to become but also be effective when you first get it.

QjTHqo3RTq1 votes

Wiggler's Lantern had huge problems, XinZhao was always a mess because of it. Simply put, having a mini nasus item is a stupid idea, while I think devourer limited stacks into a better item is a good idea, I'd prefer itd work closer to a item 3003 item 3004 with a gold efficient item that you gained slowly, but with increasing benefits

Erockandroll2 votes

The idea behind the Phantom hit, is to synergize with Champions who have On hit effects. Champions like Aatrox, Kayle, Jax, xin, (even Yi) have effects that Phantom hit bolsters in a unique way.

That said, it also synergizes with a multitude of items with on hit effects. (First it was BotRK, now it's rage blade) This means that Devourer synergizes both with champions, and with items, causing the champ to do insane amounts of damage. with only a few items. (in turn, allowing them to proceed to a tankier build)

What I would like to see from Devourer is to change the passive so that it only applies on-hit effects from champions. That would allow the champions themselves to benefit and cherish that item, while reducing or even eliminating the ridiculous item synergy.

TotalJerk3 votes

That effectively deletes a Jungle AS option for champions that want attack speed, but have no innate on-hits that benefit from it. Devourer is bad enough already on Trundle, for example.

Erockandroll3 votes

{quoted}

That effectively deletes a Jungle AS option for champions that want attack speed, but have no innate on-hits that benefit from it. Devourer is bad enough already on Trundle, for example.

While technically true, those champs would also do well with other Jungle items. While many of the other On-hit reliant champs need Devourer regardless. Riot should balance the item with them in mind.

Shadragon2 votes

{quoted} Champions like Aatrox

Too bad Phantom Hit is bugged and permanently disables his W from proccing, huh?

Sire Hippington1 votes

No it doesn't, it just has the same issue as Diana: if his W is proced by the phantom hit, you do ge the effect, but you do not get the animation nor sound.

Something i complained about since devourer was on PBE, but hey, to few play jungle Aatrox or Devourer Diana, so why bother fixing*[slayer-jinx-unamused]*

The Voids Call2 votes

which is funny, because Sated has been bugged with Aatrox and his W, since release.

Fankly i think the item itself is far to specific. It just offers a better alternative to a select group of champions, than item 1400.

Cherysse2 votes

For it to be balanced it should be reworked into a JG's item 3087

Irelia Bot2 votes

And wariots should be a tiamat item.

QjTHqo3RTq1 votes

How would this work for ranged champions exactly?

Irelia Bot2 votes

It wouldn't. what are you trying to do? Jungle graves?

QjTHqo3RTq1 votes

Kindred

The Voids Call2 votes

Frankly the item itself is just such a stupid idea. AD, Attack Damage apparently isn't enough for auto-attack focused champions anymore. Now they must give them better options, which you don't see being given to other groups of champions.

Where is our jungle armor item?

Where's the jungle CDR item?

Crit? HP5? Spell Vamp?... oh wait

Quepha1 votes

Except Riot never has to balance the phantom hit passive, they only have to balance the devourer item.

Only Play Darius1 votes

The Phantom hit concept isn't new though. Yi and Lucian have passives that allow them to use on-hits significantly better than other champs, and Kog not only breaks but doubles the attack speed cap that literally every other champion has to respect.

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