Can we make assassin high risk/high reward

freepointzs··19 votes·2,109 views

I don't think I'm making an unreasonable request. Assassins are supposed to be high risk to help balance the fact that they can insta kill a target. They should have to think carefully about how and when they engage. And for Christ's sake if they make a bad decision, if they get outplayed, or if they get baited into going into a bad engagement they should pay for it.

But that's not the case. Assassins in this game are nothing more than mobile burst casters. They jump in, blow their load on a carry, and than hop out. There's no tough decision making, there's no tactical assessment of the current battle, or silently tracking down a target and sneaking behind enemy lines.

You have any clue how demoralizing it is to play carries in this game where even the tiniest of positional mistakes are paid for in your lives and having to watch assassins make idiotic plays yet get away with it scot free because their kits are pretty much idiot proof. Zed makes a mistake in an engagement? don't worry he can just jump back to safety. Leblanc got baited into a bad situation? who cares, she can blink back from danger. Fizz needs to carefully wait for an opening in battlefield to kill the carry? Oh hell who am I kidding. He's going to jump into the teamfight, blow up the carry, and than trollpole back to safety.

There's a reason why most of the playerbase is absolutely miserable when assassins are strong. And no it's not just because people hate dying. I don't feel cheated when a bruiser jumps onto me and kills me. That's purely a positional mistake as a carry. I dont care if a tank kills me. Cause when their balanced, I have plenty of time to react, kite, and outplay him. Burst caster blew me up? Well my team can and should just as easily make him pay by catching him out.

But it doesn't feel good to be blown up instantaneously before you can react. it doesn't feel good to catch an assassin out, yet to see him escape from harms way time and time again due to oodles of mobility. It doesn't feel good having to change your entire playstyle and playstyle to adapt to an assassins yet that assassin not having to adapt at all.

That's all i ask. That assassins have some risk to go with their outrageously high reward.

56 Comments

Akali is SO HOT8 votes

Akali I think Akali is the definition of high risk/high reward. Except now it's more like High risk/Mediocre reward

48983507DEL13 votes

Not really, she can just use her Shroud to stealth and avoid a lot of damage. She also heals up from all the damage she does, so there isn't really a lot of risk involved.

Akali is SO HOT7 votes

lol once she's in she's in fam. Her shroud is only an ability if you're dumb enough to not buy pinks

ValyrianBlade2 votes

Which is great until everyone hits 6 items.

It's season 6 and we finally don't have any way to counter stealth in the late game, unless your support is willing to sacrifice an item to carry a pink...

PalPlays6 votes

Then you buy a sweeper and counter her escape?

SouL1ess2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zethera Densetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rErksAYT,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-02-22T06:33:56.205+0000)

Not really, she can just use her Shroud to stealth-

item 2043

honestly at this point, whenever the enemy has a stealth champion, you should be carrying one of these in your inventory.

It's been four fucking years, learn...

48983507DEL11 votes

Except when you get to 6 items you don't have room in your inventory for pinks.

Cloud2732 votes

{quoted}

item 2043

honestly at this point, whenever the enemy has a stealth champion, you should be carrying one of these in your inventory.

It's been four fucking years, learn...

I honestly wish Riot would just delete this item. Then people can't use it to justify broken champs anymore. People don't have infinite gold, and only so many item slots. And if the enemy team doesn't have stealth champions, you don't even need this item. Stealth (whether it's from a champion, trap, whatever) is broken in all forms.

SouL1ess2 votes

{quoted}

I honestly wish Riot would just delete this item. Then people can't use it to justify broken champs anymore. People don't have infinite gold, and only so many item slots. And if the enemy team doesn't have stealth champions, you don't even need this item. Stealth (whether it's from a champion, trap, whatever) is broken in all forms.

Lol

Stealth is so retardedly weak in this game that Riot can't even justify introducing better items to counter stealth. That's the problem more than anything else.

Stealth in this game can't even be considered broken. Pink wards being 75g a piece is easily accessible and "infinite gold" is not even a suitable argument against how cheap this thing is.

For each pink ward you put when in combat you should guarantee that you have the kill. If you put down a pink but still gets kill then you got outplayed. Stealth is important to champions with stealth and the champions lose most of their performance effectiveness when they don't have it.

Fjiordor3 votes

Ever heard of tank akali?

LankPants3 votes

Tank Akali's moderate risk/moderate reward. There's always an inherent risk in jumping into the enemy team without a solid escape, which Tank Akali clearly still does. Being tanky serves to mitigate this risk but you also clearly lose a lot of your potential damage for building this way.

Fjiordor3 votes

item 3068 item 3748 item 3001 item 3053 is just obscene because you max your e first and are able to have a really high DPS with it (it has 1 sec cd + high ad scaling) And you dont really have that many risks, because you always have your w + grasp as a safeguard

LankPants1 votes

Going to be honest, that's not really a good build past the Sunfire and Titanic. Abyssal and Sterak's lack synergy for a tanky Akali build.

Sterak's doesn't actually increase your healing or damage in any real way since your E is a bonus AD ratio and you only gain vamp off of bonus AD.

Abyssal's also kinda bad if you don't have other sources of AP, since your E ends up being most of your damage and that's a physical damage spell. All Abyssal does for you is help out your AA DPS for the most part, since your Q and R don't do that much damage.

(it has 1 sec cd + high ad scaling)

And factoring in energy regen you can use that ability 6 times before you run yourself out of energy, assuming you never use Q or W. You really can't just look at Akali's E like it's a particularly spamable ability like Hec's Q, there's a serious cost to Akali's Q.

And you dont really have that many risks, because you always have your w + grasp as a safeguard

Akali's W is not a safeguard. Against an enemy with a brain it's a speed boost and a slow. The stealth is just too easy to remove for it to be at all reliable.

The simple fact is that a decent enemy team can play around an Akali very easily. She's a bronze stomper who falls off hard at higher ranks, if you lack game knowledge she seems strong but there's a lot of simple counterplay that really hurts Akali regardless of what she builds. Once people start abusing these flaws Akali's risks become overwhelmingly apparent.

Fjiordor1 votes

I really do like to agree with what you said.(tbh id didnt realised it was only a bonus ad scalin and after Sunfire + titanic + maybe an Hextech the games are usally over.) maybe item 3116 would be a good choice. What i enjoy about her is to win some lanes i usally never win(talking about you fiora(yes ok i can win this lane with malphite but he is not always open))

LankPants1 votes

tbh id didnt realised it was only a bonus ad scalin

Turns out I was wrong on that, it is total AD so it's probably a fairly good item. I'd just personally prefer Hextech on Akali for a damage based survivability option, which is a role it can fill thanks to it's unique synergies with Akali.

One item you should be building almost every game on Akali though is Spirit Visage. It's another item that just has very good synergy. A lot of people even go as far as to build it over Abyssal on more assassin orientated builds and I'd say it's fairly clearly the best MR item for a tank Akali build.

Fjiordor1 votes

Sure i always try to sneak in a gunblade on her when im ahead (either right after bamis or after Sunfire). I will try to build the SV more often but one of the perks of getting placed in bronze is that you are facing totally unbalanced teams fairly often. So to conclude this lets just say there are many options for tank akali to build what makes her even stronger and allows you to decide to go either Full tank or off tank.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

Yeah I've started to use it and I think I'm like 5-0 with it rn. It's probably better than AP Assassin Akali atm because of how bad she is at surviving teamfights. You still do a decent amount of damage while being much harder to kill.

The build I've been using is: item 3068 item 3009 item 3146 item 3065 and then it kinda depends after that. item 3001 item 3102 item 3143 item 3116 item 3748 item 3083 item 3157 item 3512 are all good items to finish off the build. Never really been a fan of item 3748 though.

Moderate risk/Moderate reward imo

ZLbSwAR23I6 votes

Assassins are already high risk.

Papa Bear1 votes

Since when, they've never once been high risk unless it's full tank meta and riots full on fucked up even more than putting reliability and safety into 70% of the assassins. A sub ten second flash or invisilibty or invulnerability state is not in anybodies definition high risk high reward. It's just at most moderate risk and high reward.

Dominick Destine5 votes

Evelynn is the only high risk/high reward assassin.

But to other extreme, it's really just Zed that is wildly overpowered with ultra-safe assassinations/mobility/manaless/etc.

Cloud2732 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rErksAYT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-02-22T06:16:49.106+0000)

Evelynn is the only high risk/high reward assassin.

But to other extreme, it's really just Zed that is wildly overpowered with ultra-safe assassinations/mobility/manaless/etc.

Since when is perma stealth "high risk"? She's one of the safest assassins in this game.

Dominick Destine7 votes

{quoted}

Since when is perma stealth "high risk"?

Evelynn's invisibility is neither "permanent" or true "stealth". It's a ward-bypass which is singularly terrible compared to every other form of invisibility... the advantage being that it can be kept up constantly which promotes timing and positioning as major factors of Evelynn's gameplay.

Basically your argument is garbage.

She's one of the safest assassins in this game.

[zombie-brand-clap]

Congratulations sir on successfully lowering the bar on what I consider to be a terrible argument.... Evelynn is literally the least safe assassin in the game. She has the lowest defensive stats by a significant amount and is the only assassin with who's primary abilities do not contain a form of disable Ex: Ahri Diana Talon Zed Fizz Leblanc ... add to this, she has by far the shortest range of any assassin and in only barely classified as an assassin to begin with.

Evelynn is more of a fast-dueler rather than an outright assassin like say, Zed or Talon. Basically, you're wrong on so many levels that it legitimately makes me cringe.

PhantomGG3 votes

+1d you for putting a kid in his place, I agree with you, I am almost ready to quit the LOL forums in search of a better one, this forum is to contaminated with bronze/silvers who "deserve challenger but placements fucked me over"

Dominick Destine3 votes

{quoted}

this forum is to contaminated with bronze/silvers who "deserve challenger but placements fucked me over"

Yes, I've noticed that that's a major trend here. These are the people that will unironically believe in concepts like "Elo hell" but also Dunning-Kruger syndrome (in others).

Then again, remember that the majority of the player base is located in Bronze and Silver, so it makes sense that the majority of arguments are presented from such terrible positions; These people have never really played the game... Bronze and Silver are so wildly different from Plat and (more so) Diamond that it's practically an entirely different game.

The arguments they make are atrocious because the level of play they engage with is atrocious, etc.

Eveninn1 votes

This was actually exactly my thought when reading this thread.

With Eve (especially when playing the Squishy, high damage Kind), you can either catch someone out alone, which is mainly their mistake, or you can lurk behind the enemy backline and have to decide when to go in and try to pick someone off. And god forbid you missjudged a distance or your damage, let alone not managing to dodge some CC thrown at you. Yet, if you get the kill fast enough, W rest will usually get you back out.

Kinda same goes for Kha'zix. While he has his invisibility, a pink ward will fully deny that one, so he has to rely in his jump reset (aka get a kill) to get out again.

Can't say this for Zed, LeBlanc, Fizz,... :s With thoses you either get a kill, or you don't, but usually get out either way.

Papa Bear1 votes

And katarina, and fizz, and shaco. Functionally anybody with an invulnerable state, and or a flash on a super low cd, has no consequences to their actions and needs to be nerfed into the ground until they get some rework.

Evenstar3 votes

IMO, Diana is the most balanced Assassin.

She is the pinnacle of a balanced assassin. Forced to commit everything she's got on hand, and rely on her wits to outplay her opponents if shit hits her fan.

Zed and Fizz, and certain assassins like Ekko and Talon to some extent... sigh.

PalPlays1 votes

Akali as well has to play VERY precisely to get kills.

Papa Bear1 votes

Since when... she's got targets and a literaly safety button anytime somebody jumps on her with a fairly low cd. She can even dodge fucking turret shots.

Stars Shaper3 votes

Fizz

High risk for your team, high reward for his.

Papa Bear1 votes

There's no risk in fizz or any of his bullshit ilk.

Stars Shaper1 votes

Reread it, carefully :p

I don’t want to explain the joke.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

The "high risk" portion has always been in how 1 dimensional they are, not in how easy they are to kill. Being hard to catch and kill doesn't automatically make you a safe champion. Being unreliable and 1 dimensional also makes a champion unsafe. Shaco is the best example of this. In terms of avoiding death, Shaco is a very safe, low risk champion. In terms of actually being useful and winning games, Shaco is very risky because he's extremely reliant on getting ahead in his short window of early game dominance. Fail to do this and you suddenly have one of the worst champions in the game stuck on your team. Hell, you can even be successful early and still lose the game because you couldn't parlay that early lead into a win. You're making a statement whenever you pick Shaco; We're going to win this game in the first 10 minutes or most likely lose. That's the very definition of high risk, high reward.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

And Shaco is balanced...

Now what about Fizz or Zed, for example? Both have a rather large amount of build flexibility, and can be extremely strong split pushers if they don't develop that lead to help in teamfights. Even a Zed that has been useless early can transition in to a near unmatchable splitpusher.

The Bíg Ticket2 votes

Can we make mages atleast SOME risk/high reward?

LankPants4 votes

You mean like Syndra? A fairly short ranged squishy mage with no mobility at all whos only form of defence is one knockback/stun. I'd say she's considerably more risky than most assassins right now.

DrCyanide3 votes

Lack of mobility and lack of damage options if your QWE didn't kill someone are things I'd considered a risk.

Papa Bear1 votes

I'd love to have that implimented, doubtful that riot will ever do that with any of the assassins. Most of them are targeted abilities or hard to miss skillshots.

DrCyanide1 votes

... why did you Necro this 3 year old post?

Papa Bear1 votes

Cause it's still the same issue it is today that it was years ago, riot never fixed assassins. I don't mind their damage, I mind them mindlessly, and without any risk, 1 shotting pretty much anybody in the game.

48983507DEL11 votes

Ekko, Zed, Fizz, and Leblanc are really the only ones that can safely get out after jumping in. Everyone else is pretty much screwed if they don't kill their target.

Elise can't gap-close on her target without wasting her escape.

Kha'Zix can only get out if he kills his target.

Shaco is similar to Elise, where he has to use his escape to get close to his target.

PalPlays3 votes

Yeah, but Rengar will blow up your team no matter how tanky they are.

48983507DEL11 votes

No, he will blow up ONE SQUISHY target. He can't 1 shot tanks, hell he can't even 1 shot Iceborn Gauntlet Ezreal. Also, if he makes ANY mistakes in his 1 shot combo, his target gets away and his enemies blow him up.

N3mO061 votes

the only 2 assassin's High risk were nerfed and still have 46% win rate Akali Rengar

even herDiana but she is in a good state

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Rengar high risk? Self heal, massive defensive steroid and can kill anyone in 1-2 seconds and walk out spamming mastery emote. Yup pretty risky.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

That's if he catches you out alone in which case you deserve to die because Assassins are good at killing squishies quickly. In teamfights it's much harder for him to kill you and he ends up in the middle of your team to do it.

He is probably a little less risky than other Assassins though for the same reward

Papa Bear1 votes

Or if he ults and then jumps into the entire team, kills a person or maybe two and then flashes out or self cleanses the cc and runs. Assuming his team isn't 10 to 50 he can 1 shot anyboidy he wants at any time.

SwiftKitten881 votes

Nidalee has always been high risk hi reward sure you can land a spear on them for decent damage with little risk.. but to actually try to pounce in for the kill is VERY dangerous if it is any sort of teamfight.

obviously 1v1 she can play pretty safe and she has good escape.. but my key point is IF she pounces in.. she better be darn sure she can make it out alive

Papa Slothy1 votes

assassins are single target, trying to kill multiple full health people can be very difficult, champs like Zed and Talon have too high cooldowns and are too ult reliant to kill multiples

Papa Bear1 votes

Since when? From character inception zed has been op, and never once has he dipped to less than A grade assassin levels, no matter what 'nerfs' (read love taps from riot) have been applied.

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