Diamond V needs to be fixed. This is not acceptable.

Yenn·Sep 6, 2016·41 votes·3,190 views

These players were all Gold last season. They still play like they're Gold this season, but somehow managed to climb. They have no mechanical skill and no decision making skill.

I'm watching them make stupid decisions to go for kills that I know with 100% certainty have no chance of success, while spamming pings for them to back off. This isn't a rare occurrence, and it happens every time I get a team with these S5 Gold/Silver players.

At one point, Olaf was level 4, around 60% health, and had a massive wave at his tower. The enemy Gnar was up two kills, level 6, and about to transform. Our Zac went to gank him. I typed out that he shouldn't engage that and spammed pings for him to back off. He still engaged it. Gnar got a double kill.

I explained to them that they should have waited for Olaf to clear the wave, and for Gnar's mega to fall off. They went 'oh lol i didnt know.' This is fucked up. I'm playing ranked because I want good games with similarly skilled players, not to teach retarded monkeys basic decision making skills.

This is not fun. Something needs to be done to normalize skill level, or players who reach higher ratings without improving need to be punished.

http://i.imgur.com/kMQE1Yv.jpg

92 Comments

Mojihito666Sep 6, 201618 votes

It is ok for gold players to play with their master tier smurf friend.

they got some friends so they deserve to be higher rank.

DemainaNyxSep 6, 20167 votes

I just watched the replay and that was just sad. Based on the picture I was going to say everyone was CSing horribly but you were doing fine until you roamed to secure kills on low health people that your teammates kept dying to.

That double kill you mentioned was so obvious I don't know how they didn't know better. "Let's engage during his powerspike." Yeah, best idea.

Gotta love the enemy pink ward near your red buff that had a normal ward on it yet never got cleared. Eventually the Lucian found it later but the normal ward expired before then.

That fire dragon call seemed dumb to me considering you had a bare top inhib and Fizz was pushing in a wave top, but at least you recalled when you noticed them taking the inhib. The rest of your team was content with trying to kill the Graves that had showed up to get dragon.

I think Baron was worst of all. Zac sees them start it and then goes in 1v4 before you all are even close only to die. Olaf is running in seconds later, only to turn arounmd and blow his ult to escape. Jhin is near top lane and Lucian decides since everyone is focused on Olaf, he'll quickly kill Jhin which just results in his death since Olaf runs off. The dust settles for a bit and then Veigar decides he should wander in alone just in case they are still doing Baron only to die isntantly.

That was just awful to watch.

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20165 votes

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2286177568/374094?tab=overview

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=yenn

Found the problem. Its not a D5 match, its a low elo game. Players playing like low elo players in a low elo game is pretty common mate. Have you tried to, I dunno, Git Gud?

General Esdeath Sep 6, 20161 votes

Plat 1 is low elo?

Also, why are there plat 1 and gold 5 players in the same game?

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20165 votes

{quoted}

Plat 1 is low elo?

Yes. And technically he's not even in plat 1.

Also, why are there plat 1 and gold 5 players in the same game?

Because DQ allows players as far apart as 1000 MMR to queue together.

General Esdeath Sep 6, 20163 votes

I'd consider anything above gold to be high, diamond is highER, and masters/challenger have their own names for a reason and no numbers.

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20164 votes

{quoted}

I'd consider anything above gold to be high, diamond is highER, and masters/challenger have their own names for a reason and no numbers.

It can be a relative thing dependent on perspective. Most of us in the high level community tend to agree high level play starts at Diamond 5 (and we are being pretty damn generous to D5 players in our estimation) because that is the level where you finally start to see players regularly understanding and implementing advanced concepts in games, rotations, wave management, objective control, split pushes be they 1-4 or 1-3-1, in addition to more basic fundamental gameplay aspects like not dying, farming, and positioning well.

If you were to go for a more unbiased approach to viewing the ladder Low ELO would be bronze and silver, Mid ELO would be gold and platinum (and possibly diamond 5) and High ELO would be diamond and better.

The biggest reason many in the High ELO community regard everything below diamond to be "low ELO" is because the skill gap from silver through low diamond is very negligible. The difference between a silver 3 and a diamond 5 can be pretty insignificant, and the ladder is its MOST volatile in that range, so luck plays the greatest factor in the rankings of players in this range compared to the other ranges. Meanwhile the difference between a Diamond 3 player and a Diamond 1 player is HUGE. The difference between a Diamond 1 and a Challenger is almost unfathomable. I've played against dozens of pros and challenger players. I look like a bronzie when I play them. I get that badly thrashed despite being a former Master Tier player myself.

SinlaireSep 6, 20161 votes

Dunno why you got downvoted. I've gone from Bronze 5 this season to currently Silver 4 and the difference is almost un noticeable. I play with my gold 4 brother and his friend and the stupid is still palpable.

I thought it would be better than this by mid silver to gold, and it isn't and i imagine up to plat it still wont change much. then you get the boosted animals in diamond 5 and the whole ladder is now a joke...

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Dunno why you got downvoted.

People don't often like hearing the truth. I don't even notice it. I don't post for upvotes or downvotes. I post to assist other players who need help or are trying to figure something out that I happen to have knowledge of.

Troll for TrumpSep 7, 20161 votes

Get off the high horse

jaymc1130Sep 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Get off the high horse

L2p low elo scrub with a negative win rate.

Troll for TrumpSep 7, 20161 votes

Don't just throw around rank. Literally just being really toxic.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 7, 20161 votes

Mhmhm former master tier. Why are u afraid to show us your real account? Instead of this unranked former silver account? That smelly smell lmao

LostSweaterSep 7, 20161 votes

Plat one and above makes up maybe 5% of the league community so quit being a dick. Dynamic queue may allow up to 1000 mmr difference in games but that shouldn't be a regular occurrence. [zombie-brand-facepalm]

SecondChanceHeroSep 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Plat one and above makes up maybe 5% of the league community so quit being a dick.

No one's been a dick except for you for calling some one a dick. Check that mirror mate.

Dynamic queue may allow up to 1000 mmr difference in games but that shouldn't be a regular occurrence.

And yet it IS a regular occurrence. Are you aware that the average distance between players on a team jumped from about 75-100 MMR in all previous seasons to 300-400 MMR in this season? Are you aware that 1000 MMR differences (which have NEVER happened in any prior season) happen about 5% of the time this season?

Might wanna do some research so you know what you are talking about before you post next time mate. You won't get the taste of foot in your mouth that way.

LostSweaterSep 14, 20161 votes

I've only been playing ranked for one season, and I climbed from low bronze and am now in gold 4. I have not spent the same amount of time playing the game as some people, but 5% is very minute. Now, unless that 5% happens to mainly occur in higher elo, then I would see a problem but 5% of the ~3% of league players in diamond and up is a very minuscule portion of the league population. In gold and silver, that 1000 mmr difference really hasn't been very impactful in my experience. I don't claim to know everything about league, but everything that I have said is based off of what I have personally seen during ranked. Now I suppose that someone will come back saying that I'm not good enough to notice a difference in players because I'm "only gold", but comparatively speaking, gold is decent. The league community is like a bell curve except that it is skewed towards the top whenever people try to judge how "good" someone is. Any discussion I welcome, but rather than acting like I don't know what I'm talking about, maybe take into consideration that your stance on league is not held by 100% of the player base.

DrCyanideSep 6, 20162 votes

These players were all Gold last season. They still play like they're Gold this season

And the teammates actually were Gold... interesting...

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20163 votes

{quoted}

And the teammates actually were Gold... interesting...

IKR?

Who would've guess gold players in a gold and low plat match would play like gold and low plat players? WHO WOULD'VE GUESSED! ZOMG WHAT AN ATROCITY!!!!!

YennSep 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

IKR?

Who would've guess gold players in a gold and low plat match would play like gold and low plat players? WHO WOULD'VE GUESSED! ZOMG WHAT AN ATROCITY!!!!!

I decayed from Diamond V and gain +26-27 LP per win at Plat II and -11-14 LP per loss. I jumped from Plat IV to Plat II in promos. It's not low Plat.

arghilostSep 6, 20163 votes

ladder needs a hard reset, its needed it for a while now.

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20162 votes

{quoted}

ladder needs a hard reset, its needed it for a while now.

Do you have ANY idea how much Yenn complained back in season 2 about the Hard resets we had then?

Hard resets weren't good for any one. What you are advocating is forcing bronze 5 players to play challenger rank 1 players at the start of every season. This worked out terribly when we had them and made the ladder complete chaos in the early portions of seasons.

arghilostSep 6, 20161 votes

things need to hit rock bottom before they can better. There is no way to sustain integrity of the ladder off of 6 soft resets in a row. It's the only way.

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

things need to hit rock bottom before they can better. There is no way to sustain integrity of the ladder off of 6 soft resets in a row. It's the only way.

Season 2 had a hard reset. There was no reset for season 1. Seasons 3, 4, 5, and 6 have had soft resets.

Furthermore no other game that uses an ELO system has ANY form of "reset" at all. MTG, Chess, other similar games have nothing similar to this.

And lastly the ranked ladder has never had any competitive integrity. Never. Not in 6 seasons. Riot allows players to troll away, refuses to punish them, and yet allows those trolled games to count. All while using a system to rank individuals that has never once, ever, accounted for an individuals skillset by using individual skill metrics. There has never been competitive integrity in this game outside of professional play and even there it is pretty questionable.

The only way to correct this problem is to completely redesign the entire system and scrap the ones we've been using. Which Riot won't do because that would cost money and Riot is greedy as fuck.

arghilostSep 6, 20161 votes

games like chess dont constantly change, they dont need resets. Each new patch is sometimes an entirely new game, and countless players climb the ladder abusing a certain champion/build for a few patches but aren't actually all-around good players. Then they plague a ladder position that they do not belong in, but its actually pretty easy to scrape by in this game with a near 50% winrate as long as you aren't actively losing your team the game, just being mediocre/bad.

Thats why hard resets are a necessity in league if you keep the constant patching.

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

games like chess dont constantly change, they dont need resets. Each new patch is sometimes an entirely new game

MTG has no resets. And has new sets come out every few months, about the same pace of game changing additions that League has. Why does it not need resets? I'll tell you, because the ranking system designed for MTG actually FUNCTIONS for MTG. It accounts for every individual players individual skills and ability to adapt as time goes on.

League's systems do not do this. They have never done this.

Thats why hard resets are a necessity in league if you keep the constant patching.

No. Just no. Hard resets only cause MORE problems because the the facts I JUST mentioned. In order for anything to function appropriately you need to have a system in place that functions in the manner its intended to function. Taking a malfunctioning system and then resetting everyone to the same level only makes the malfunctioning system malfunction HARDER. The absolute worst thing that could be done would be to have hard resets back.

Edit: Further more, given that the system is terrible at quickly and accurately ranking players, why would you want to add an additional 30 some odd games or more for you to grind through every season just to reach an accurate ranking for yourself? I sure as hell don't want to. I don't enjoy beating up on less talented competition. I want to play games with people who are comparable to me in skill so that we can have fun, tight, competitive games. Why on EARTH would you or any one want to get reset so you get to play 30 or 40 stomp fests to start a season? Does your ego really need that? I HATE having to play games in silver and gold and even in plat when I know that these won't be fair matches, my simply being on a smurf ruins the integrity of those matches because I am going to crush these players on a regular basis and it simply isn't fair to them. Why would you advocate having this happen? Do you WANT the lower level players to stop playing? Do you WANT this game to die out?

arghilostSep 6, 20161 votes

well I disagree with you. Seeing as you dont even play this game anymore judging by your account I don't really take too much stock in your opinion.

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

well I disagree with you. Seeing as you dont even play this game anymore judging by your account I don't really take too much stock in your opinion.

We have the same ranking mate.

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=likeamaws

I've played since season 1 and have accumulated over 35,000 games played in total across 16 accounts in that time span. Chances are pretty good I have a fair idea of what I'm talking about since this is roughly 8-10 times the amount of games you've played total.

arghilostSep 6, 20161 votes

why are you posting from some random scrub account then? Go on your main. anyone can just pick a random diamond acct

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

why are you posting from some random scrub account then? Go on your main. anyone can just pick a random diamond acct

I've always only posted on JayMC. It keeps it simple for players who have come to recognize me over the last 5 years of posting to the boards. Its the name I am known by.

Also, the mods ban posters for impersonation... and I have dozens of screenshots from all my public accounts so its really as simple as taking a look at my boards profile post history. You can check all the other publicly known accounts too, I don't post on SecondChanceHero, or Ev3CarriesU, or oOBestEveNaOo, or PolygonSymphony, or rRunForest.

Keeping track of people who constantly switch accounts and names is difficult. Keeping track of JayMC never will be.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 7, 20161 votes

Well answers my question above. Good to know :)

SecondChanceHeroSep 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well answers my question above. Good to know :)

Well I have to make an exception today. Apparently telling some poster who insulted, berated, and harassed me for an entire day yesterday that it was past his bedtime when it continued into the night warrants a 1 day board ban. Interestingly enough the original insulting post where he attacks me for no reason is still allowed up. That's some great moderation.

Another reason to use less important accounts for the boards when the mods screw up that badly this often.

RogueWillSep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Do you have ANY idea how much Yenn complained back in season 2 about the Hard resets we had then?

Hard resets weren't good for any one. What you are advocating is forcing bronze 5 players to play challenger rank 1 players at the start of every season. This worked out terribly when we had them and made the ladder complete chaos in the early portions of seasons.

Everyone should be demoted a whole tier for the reset and reset the MMR to mid that tier, new players on rank then proceed to start on B5, 2 seasons later, 3 tops, everyone is going to be on their respective tier (assuming they get rid of DQ)

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Everyone should be demoted a whole tier for the reset and reset the MMR to mid that tier, new players on rank then proceed to start on B5, 2 seasons later, 3 tops, everyone is going to be on their respective tier (assuming they get rid of DQ)

That really wouldn't work out that well tbh. It'd be a less effective version of what is already being done with resets. The resets are fine, that algorithm is acceptable and it makes some fair amount of sense to have it.

What we really need is a ranking system that ranks individuals by taking into account not only W/L ratio as it does now, but also your individual skill metrics. You have to have both of these things measured in order to have fair and accurate rankings for a team game with a ladder that ranks individuals. You have to have both these things in order for match making to be able to accurately and fairly pair players for games. If we use only W/L for team 5s thats one thing, the combined efforts of the entire team determine whether they win or lose and every action they take as a unit directly leads to a win or a loss. But this cannot work for queue modes that allow players to play as LESS than a full team. Because then its NOT a matter of every action being taken by the team leading to the end result. If you have a duo and they afk and you can't win the 3v5 the 3 players shouldn't be penalized for losing a match whose outcome they had next to no control over. And yet with the way the systems have functioned for 6 season this is precisely what happens. You are punished for having an afk, a troll, an intentional feeder on your team. And you aren't REWARDED either for OVERCOMING this handicap if you do manage to win.

You can't rank individuals on a ladder in a team game without taking into account, to SOME degree, how they perform as individuals. Its just not possible to do this accurately, fairly, or quickly. The design of the system is what makes this impossible. So its not a matter of what type of resets we have. Its a matter of us getting a system that is actually capable of performing its intended function at all because the one we have been using never has. And the end result of all this is poor quality matches like the one Yenn found himself in today that lead to this post.

RogueWillSep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That really wouldn't work out that well tbh. It'd be a less effective version of what is already being done with resets. The resets are fine, that algorithm is acceptable and it makes some fair amount of sense to have it.

What we really need is a ranking system that ranks individuals by taking into account not only W/L ratio as it does now, but also your individual skill metrics. You have to have both of these things measured in order to have fair and accurate rankings for a team game with a ladder that ranks individuals. You have to have both these things in order for match making to be able to accurately and fairly pair players for games. If we use only W/L for team 5s thats one thing, the combined efforts of the entire team determine whether they win or lose and every action they take as a unit directly leads to a win or a loss. But this cannot work for queue modes that allow players to play as LESS than a full team. Because then its NOT a matter of every action being taken by the team leading to the end result. If you have a duo and they afk and you can't win the 3v5 the 3 players shouldn't be penalized for losing a match whose outcome they had next to no control over. And yet with the way the systems have functioned for 6 season this is precisely what happens. You are punished for having an afk, a troll, an intentional feeder on your team. And you aren't REWARDED either for OVERCOMING this handicap if you do manage to win.

You can't rank individuals on a ladder in a team game without taking into account, to SOME degree, how they perform as individuals. Its just not possible to do this accurately, fairly, or quickly. The design of the system is what makes this impossible. So its not a matter of what type of resets we have. Its a matter of us getting a system that is actually capable of performing its intended function at all because the one we have been using never has. And the end result of all this is poor quality matches like the one Yenn found himself in today that lead to this post.

Y disagree completely on that philosophy my friend. that's like saying your favorite sport team play like never before yet still lose due to the score. Same principle, we have to get rid of this "You failed but you tried very hard so you get rewarded" mentality.

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Y disagree completely on that philosophy my friend. that's like saying your favorite sport team play like never before yet still lose due to the score. Same principle, we have to get rid of this "You failed but you tried very hard so you get rewarded" mentality.

You probably disagree because you misunderstand completely.

Here is roughly what you advocate: Because the Kansas City Royals won the world series last season we can claim Alex Gordon is the best player in all of baseball. (This is clearly and obviously not the case, he's a good ball player who is slightly above average)

Here is what I advocate: Steph Curry is still the best or second best player in the NBA despite losing the Finals last year. (This is clearly and obviously true, although there is room to debate where exactly Steph fits in the top 10 ball players in that League)

Its not a matter of "rewarding players who tried hard but failed", its a matter of giving players CREDIT based on their MERITS. Which is currently something that does not happen. Instead you are given credit for what 4 other players on your team did more so than on what you yourself have done. And this happens in every single match. That means that EVERY match played skews to an ever greater degree a player's ranking. It is PRECISELY this phenomenon that lead to so much rampant boosting this season, your individual skills aren't required to reach a specific ranking provided you pay some one enough to do it for you or have some one talented enough as a friend to do it for you.

RogueWillSep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You probably disagree because you misunderstand completely.

Here is roughly what you advocate: Because the Kansas City Royals won the world series last season we can claim Alex Gordon is the best player in all of baseball. (This is clearly and obviously not the case, he's a good ball player who is slightly above average)

Here is what I advocate: Steph Curry is still the best or second best player in the NBA despite losing the Finals last year. (This is clearly and obviously true, although there is room to debate where exactly Steph fits in the top 10 ball players in that League)

Its not a matter of "rewarding players who tried hard but failed", its a matter of giving players CREDIT based on their MERITS. Which is currently something that does not happen. Instead you are given credit for what 4 other players on your team did more so than on what you yourself have done. And this happens in every single match. That means that EVERY match played skews to an ever greater degree a player's ranking. It is PRECISELY this phenomenon that lead to so much rampant boosting this season, your individual skills aren't required to reach a specific ranking provided you pay some one enough to do it for you or have some one talented enough as a friend to do it for you.

The credits are there man. You have a grade system and a chest sytem based on how well you did. You can get mastery 6 or 7 on those champions. But just because Steph Curry is the best NBA player doesn't mean his team still not the champion. Same concept, just because you got a S grade doesn't mean you should be awarded more LP.

TI3d17N1CSSep 6, 20163 votes

yep rip i went inactive and came back late into the season where all these golds are now diamond (masters/challenger every season) and now im stuck in this shithole of retardation lmao

WarlockLawSep 6, 20163 votes

You circled Veigar's cs, yet he is clearly support. I'm not sure if you're trying to say it's too high or too low, but he is the support. I can't help but feel you didn't even notice that.

SlashStrikerSep 6, 20162 votes

thats absolutely nothing where in gold team score is 4 / 20 and the 2 kills are on you. You feel like your teammates are silver where enemy team is plat and every single lane is lost

PiVoRxSep 6, 201612 votes

Have you ever been in this elo? Diamond 5 is fucking dumpster impossible to climb from alone. I totally agree with OP, theres need to be something done with D5, i dunno, restrict games to solo only (inclufing promos to D5), make lp decay faster, fucking anything to make this trash division a better place.

Nik NikersonSep 6, 20165 votes

Let me weep for you and your plight in Diamond 5 hell.

TequilaZombieSep 6, 20162 votes

Diamond 5 is hell. Why isn't this in Memes & Games?

dragon1xxSep 6, 20162 votes

While I sit in bronze

five oh tree Sep 6, 20161 votes

Everyone's cs is so bad lmao. Is that really diamond?

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=ninja swaggy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rEiJEg1r,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2016-09-06T22:58:38.498+0000)

Everyone's cs is so bad lmao. Is that really diamond?

No, the match had an average team MMR closer to 1750 or 1800. There were no diamond players in the match aside from Yenn.

five oh tree Sep 6, 20162 votes

Oh. So his MMR is just in the gutter then?

jaymc1130Sep 6, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=ninja swaggy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rEiJEg1r,comment-id=001d00000000,timestamp=2016-09-06T23:01:19.631+0000)

Oh. So his MMR is just in the gutter then?

It's a bit low (for diamond) and his account decayed from D5. His MMR is around 1975, which is about 100 MMR over what is normal for a plat 2 player (his current rank after decay).

The issue he's complaining about is valid, the title is simply inaccurate and misleading. There was a player in this match who is 450 MMR below him on his team. The enemy team had a MUCH smaller MMR gap of around 300. This was basically an auto loss in lobby due to poor matchmaking unless he had been playing JG and had been able to impact every lane from minute 3 on. Truthfully, he had no business playing in a match he was paired this poorly and should have dodged it. He probably didn't bother to do something basic like op.gg his teammates while he was in lobby or he would have known this and could have avoided the hassle.

In the end its still his mistake for allowing bad luck to be a factor and playing a match that was an auto loss in lobby, but Riot certainly doesn't do themselves any favors and comes off looking like morons once again for allowing this match to happen in the first place with a 400+ MMR gap for players on his team. This happens because of the implementation of DQ which allows multiple people to party up and allows MMR gaps of 1000 for players in a party.

YennSep 7, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=ninja swaggy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rEiJEg1r,comment-id=001d,timestamp=2016-09-06T22:58:38.498+0000)

Everyone's cs is so bad lmao. Is that really diamond?

Why farm minions when you can farm champions?

jaymc1130Sep 7, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Why farm minions when you can farm champions?

Typical NA player with Typical NA mindset.

Is...

Is it a bad thing that I tend to also subscribe to this policy?

No wonder the other regions think we are a laughing stock.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 7, 20161 votes

Well you see if i'm not mistaken 15 cs equals a solo kill (not firstblood). That's why i actually laugh when the enemy midlaner killed me and is still 30 cs behind saying he "won" the lane. Same as people don't value objectives in this game. When my midlaner ganks bot even in high plat they expect me to follow just to come late, lose farm and gain nothing except death or a solo kill. When i instead can farm up to three waves (1 kill for me in gold)+ a tower for global 800 gold on my team totally equalling what happened in botlane+ more pressure in mid reducing is roam ability.