Instantly throwing the game once you see off-meta.

ADC Yuumi·Dec 27, 2018·6 votes·7,813 views

Popular builds like Pyke Jungle, bad builds like ADC Annie and underground builds like Jinx Support.

Unless it has been done by a youtuber or a korean player diamond or above; everyone will instantly give up hope in you when off-meta.

This happens constantly and demotes the pride of players trying new builds. Sometimes it's a small change like Tristana's first item being Gunblade rather than Stormrazor because "It honestly helps Tristana overall." And sometimes it's selfishness turned into a meta like an annoyed player auto-filled support though he wanted mid and playing Brand. And other times it's a serious idea someone has planned out to it's core like ADC Lux, with abilities placing on-hit effects. root and AoE slow. And then sometimes, it's just to see what happens, like ADC Annie. It isn't good but it's funny to see doing well in game.

All of these examples are okay in Draft Pick games, and only the first and third example can be taken into Ranked games.

However, no matter what you do; players who've never seen it will instantly see you as a troll or won't help you in need in a game. Especially if we're talking about Jungle / Bot / Supp.

I'll give a rundown.

You lock in AP Kog'maw as a support.

Pre-game:

Someone on your team dodges.
Your teammates flame you before you even enter the game.
Your ADC would play a support, throwing your set off and forcing you to ADC if you want a winning chance.

Mid-game:

Game begins and the ADC forces themselves into someone else's lane, causing a full team laning phase disruption.
The ADC will refuse to help you and the jungler will not gank solely because you're playing off-meta.
All annoyed players will /all chat to beg the enemy team to report you for inting.
If you are the first blood ( first to die ) even though there was an obvious edge for the enemy, the whole team turns against you.

Post-game:

Loud report. ("Report Kog'maw for inting.")
Silent report. ("RandomPlayerName sent a report.")

58 Comments

HotarµDec 27, 20185 votes

People who put down off meta builds are just jerks most of the time. I will say that first timing a new build in ranked shouldn't be acceptable though.

Play what you know, play to win, for everything else, play norms.

SonicAFDec 27, 20183 votes

{quoted}

People who put down off meta builds are just jerks most of the time. I will say that first timing a new build in ranked shouldn't be acceptable though.

Play what you know, play to win, for everything else, play norms.

I main offmeta builds for 7 seasons and face the same issue to this day. I always played to win and every time I lost with something unconventional I was a scapegoat. Tell me more about jerks.

HotarµDec 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I main offmeta builds for 7 seasons and face the same issue to this day. I always played to win and every time I lost with something unconventional I was a scapegoat. Tell me more about jerks.

Well, I never said if you play it in norms, people won't be jerks.

As someone who played/plays a ton of Karthus and Azir support, don't let them get to you. As long as you played to win and actually tried, that's all that matters. Just ignore it and move on to the next game.

People will always look for someone to blame, it's usually easiest to go with the Olaf support.

SonicAFDec 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Well, I never said if you play it in norms, people won't be jerks.

As someone who played/plays a ton of Karthus and Azir support, don't let them get to you. As long as you played to win and actually tried, that's all that matters. Just ignore it and move on to the next game.

People will always look for someone to blame, it's usually easiest to go with the Olaf support.

I play my mains in ranked. And I don't think you should treat norms less serious.

HotarµDec 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I play my mains in ranked. And I don't think you should treat norms less serious.

While that's something I don't fully agree with, as long as you can back it up with a decent winrate then I suppose it's fine.

SonicAFDec 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

While that's something I don't fully agree with, as long as you can back it up with a decent winrate then I suppose it's fine.

And here cones the question what winrate is decent. Just to be clear - if you don't intentionally throw every game, you can get to bronze 3 as AP Vayne with 50% winrate.

Edit: and I had abysmal winrates with some meta champions in ranked. 30%ish over 20 games. It just didn't work. After playing them with relative success on my smurfs a league below. And the worst part, it could be a coincidence, but we'll never know as I dropped those champions in those seasons.

Garen, Tryndamere, Anivia, Kha'Zix, Darius. On default lanes. Jeez, should I be banned for it?

Apricot JamsFeb 4, 20193 votes

{quoted}

People who put down off meta builds are just jerks most of the time. I will say that first timing a new build in ranked shouldn't be acceptable though.

Play what you know, play to win, for everything else, play norms.

mastercard... is that you?

RakeySnakeyFeb 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

People who put down off meta builds are just jerks most of the time. I will say that first timing a new build in ranked shouldn't be acceptable though.

Play what you know, play to win, for everything else, play norms.

After 3 games off of meta stuff it gets pretty damn annoying to deal with. 1st game: AP tryn, sure it's off meta but he rushes nashors vs a jax top gets first blood and then proceeds to just lose lane from there. 2nd game: Ezreal support with a Kalista Adc, needless to say they lost too because they have zero form of peel or synergy. 3rd game: Kennen adc with a blitz and they also proceed to lose game.

Sure it's just how the game goes and you can't win them all but back to back off meta stuff just gets irritating. If you wanna try off meta stuff fine do so but please try to not feed em.

MorgManBasherDec 27, 20184 votes

If you play Jinx support, I will lock in Corki {{summoner:51}} summoner 1 item 3117 item 3086

There is off meta supports and then there is Jinx support which is completely not viable and you are actually an ahole for playing it.

You think these players are the jerks for not putting up with your trolling, but do you really think it's okay to go into a team based game and lock in support Jinx and expect people to just accept it knowing their chances of winning dropped by an insane amount? Normal game or ranked game, I'm not playing with someone that isn't even remotely trying to win and making the game x10 harder.

This is coming from someone that enjoys playing off meta supporst picks like Malzahar Ashe Veigar Xerath Nunu But these champions can actually work in the role to some degree.

MLDzXnRRRDec 27, 20184 votes

{quoted}

If you play Jinx support, I will lock in {{summoner:51}}

There is off meta supports and then there is Jinx support which is completely not viable and you are actually an ahole for playing it.

You think these players are the jerks for not putting up with your trolling, but do you really think it's okay to go into a team based game and lock in support Jinx and expect people to just accept it knowing their chances of winning dropped by an insane amount? Normal game or ranked game, I'm not playing with someone that isn't even remotely trying to win and making the game x10 harder.

This is coming from someone that enjoys playing off meta supporst picks like But these champions can actually work in the role to some degree.

COme on, Veigar was reworked because he ruined LCS as support with that cage, he is still very good, if you can land W and E... People like you are one of the reasons why this game sucks - giving up and trolling for no reason; the main point is that support won't farm and will place wards (that noone watches and the team still dies in ganks...), why do you care what they pick? You want to be carried by your CC/Heal bot or what? The moment the utility champions or their "baby adc" die in a gank is the moment when the troll damage support becomes way scarier than them, because of how damage vs defense vs utility is handleed in this game... Malza - prerework he was way more dangerous, now he is the biggest joke in league after all these nerfs, yet noone was taking him bot; in what way he became semi-viable? People just started playing him there. Just like yasuo spammers play him in literally every role (also jungle, lmfao), including dps carry or support botlane. And he is the only non-ranged dps that sees any considerable play % botlane in the data mining sites (reflected in the client role suggestions)

MorgManBasherDec 27, 20182 votes

{quoted}

COme on, Veigar was reworked because he ruined LCS as support with that cage, he is still very good, if you can land W and E... People like you are one of the reasons why this game sucks - giving up and trolling for no reason; the main point is that support won't farm and will place wards (that noone watches and the team still dies in ganks...), why do you care what they pick? You want to be carried by your CC/Heal bot or what? The moment the utility champions or their "baby adc" die in a gank is the moment when the troll damage support becomes way scarier than them, because of how damage vs defense vs utility is handleed in this game... Malza - prerework he was way more dangerous, now he is the biggest joke in league after all these nerfs, yet noone was taking him bot; in what way he became semi-viable? People just started playing him there. Just like yasuo spammers play him in literally every role (also jungle, lmfao), including dps carry or support botlane. And he is the only non-ranged dps that sees any considerable play % botlane in the data mining sites (reflected in the client role suggestions)

? I literally said I play Veigar support. He's off meta but he's viable off meta. He USE to be a meta support but now he's kinda a solid strong troll pick. I personally think Malz makes a decent support if you max Q first for the longer silence duration, it's certainly not top tier/good but it's not useless either.

What does support jinx bring to the table? A root and low damage, wow...OP. At least ashe support has vision, perma slows, poke and a global ultimate stun. Not to mention Ashe can be turned into an ardent user thanks to Font of Life.

A supports job is more than just warding, it's lane pressure and utility. Generally the support carries the lane. I am a support main myself and I know that the majority of how the lane goes is on my shoulders. Imagine how miserable your ADC is going to be if you lock in something completely not viable and useless as Jinx? At least pick something with early game damage with tons of lane pressure like Karthus or something.

The guy mentions AP kog, have you played it before? It's damage is extremely low till Kog gets items. AP kog is extremely item dependent. AP Kog mid is already a troll pick but at least it's somewhat viable there, if you are taking it support what chance do you think you are going to have against actual supports or AP support like Zyra/Brand or even off meta supports like Xerath? I'd probably still rather have AP kog support than Jinx though because at least item 3098 is decent on him.

I been playing this game since season 2, been a support main for most of that... Meta's change but some things are just completely not viable at all and you can't honestly say to yourself AP support Jinx might be secretly OP and my teamates should just accept my pick and try when you obviously aren't.

SanKakUDec 27, 20182 votes

If Jinx W scaled with AP or her E with AD I think Jinx support would be okay but since it isn't, I don't know how she's supposed to contribute effectively but even if someone picks a more viable champion for the slot they can still not do their job properly so I'd rather give someone a chance because there's always going to be someone that did worse than how they will do.

ı Sona ıDec 27, 20182 votes

It's a lot better than it used to be as a community whole, though it does still exist. But it is a lot better. Though it still exists.

SonicAFDec 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAnK9veg,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-12-27T05:05:50.809+0000)

It's a lot better than it used to be as a community whole, though it does still exist. But it is a lot better. Though it still exists.

People started giving me a chance more often after roles got introduced and it's very meaningful spike in playable games.

Riot decided to fix enjoyability and started banning offmeta for role stealing, making sure I am always on my toes. Not sure if anyone treated me with such disrespect in my entire life.

ı Sona ıDec 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

People started giving me a chance more often after roles got introduced and it's very meaningful spike in playable games.

Riot decided to fix enjoyability and started banning offmeta for role stealing, making sure I am always on my toes. Not sure if anyone treated me with such disrespect in my entire life.

Remember when people called roles in ranked? And then trying to off meta in those roles, especially if you were like first pick? lol.

SonicAFDec 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=ı Sona ı,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAnK9veg,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-12-27T05:41:58.080+0000)

Remember when people called roles in ranked? And then trying to off meta in those roles, especially if you were like first pick? lol.

Exactly. I mained AD Sona. The fact that they dismissed anything I type and farmed my lane is self-explanatory, but can you imagine what they picked?

Still less stressful than potentially getting unjustly banned by Riot.

ADC YuumiDec 27, 20182 votes

This is truly killing most of the joy in the game.

But of course I don't think Riot will bat an eye at the... ahem "Purists" when coming to games. And this has been taken so far.

Back in Season 7 I was carrying a game as ADC Lux and my team was helping me and supporting me. We had the game and could've won until the Rengar saw I was ADC, said I was trolling ( because carrying 32 / 3 / 7 was trolling obviously. ) and completely stopped helping with teamfights or enemy flank ganks when I was there, then soon enough started int feeding and saying in /all chat "Report Lux for troll."

He lost us the game which we had completely just because I was ADC Lux.

So someone give me a true reason as to why that was acceptable?

DorkunedAurasDec 27, 20182 votes

My general solution is to ignore the haters and kick as much ass as I can. Granted, it's easier when you're doing off meta top/mid because you don't have to rely on a lane partner/laners (for leashes/invades), but still. I've gotten a lot of hate for my Rek'Sai top, followed by the enemy team giving me a lot of hate for killing everything in my wake and cleaving through the entire game.

ok, lost track a bit, but the point is, do your damnedest and it'll show.

ADC YuumiDec 27, 20181 votes

Amen.

King LegoDec 27, 20182 votes

Strange... The last time I or a team mate played something off-meta, the flaming is most often from the enemy rather than the ally.

The amount of flaming from the enemy was just unbelievable.

ADC YuumiDec 27, 20181 votes

I did have a game like that, with our botlane being jackhammered by an ADC Bard and Thresh combo.

King LegoDec 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mega Audinoz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAnK9veg,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-12-27T14:28:30.765+0000)

I did have a game like that, with our botlane being jackhammered by an ADC Bard and Thresh combo.

Honestly, I can't blame them. Especially with Bard as an ADC and Thresh support. Bard is quite strong if built ADC, and with Thresh on his side, it's pretty much hell to lane against. Who were the bot lane in your team though?

ADC YuumiDec 27, 20181 votes

Kai'sa and Janna or some of the such.

But I must say internally I was rooting on their botlane.

King LegoDec 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mega Audinoz,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAnK9veg,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-27T14:41:30.287+0000)

Kai'sa and Janna or some of the such.

But I must say internally I was rooting on their botlane.

Hmm...I don't think a Janna with Kai'sa should lose vs a Thresh with Bard. Maybe pre level 6 yes, but once they hit level 6, Thresh and Bard should have a hard time.

Interesting...

ROYALR3IGNDec 27, 20182 votes

I already laid the smack down your click baity thread yesterday and all you could come back with was a Jinx emote instead of actually refuting the points made, and why some champs are viable off meta and some are just troll.

There's a reason why "off meta" picks or innovative picks can work at a high elo. These players have mastered the game and are basically calculating things like gold efficiency on items, considering scalings, team composition, who their lane opponents are not to mention skill above all else. Are you? Or are you just picking Jinx support every time and going 2/9 complaining that no one wants to see a Jinx support in their ranked game and hoping that it works?

How would you feel if your entire team went "off meta" in your definition and built AP on Riven top and goes 1-6 but was "trying". Like think about how much you're handicapping your team by doing this shit, no wonder they'd flame you. The game is hard enough with everyone trying their best to win and you're basically conceding your lane at champ select, with no expected pay out in the late game.

Like the only reason you shouldn't be picking someone who can fufill their role properly is if you're trolling with friends, or a OTP with a champ that you regularly hard carry with, OR it fits your team composition and is perfect for negating a specific threat on the enemy team.

If you wanna do this in a normal, fine theres not much at stake for most people. If you try this in ranked and someone gets demoted because bot lost so hard expect to be flamed.

SonicAFDec 27, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arctic Husky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAnK9veg,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-12-27T14:57:06.337+0000)

I already laid the smack down your click baity thread yesterday and all you could come back with was a Jinx emote instead of actually refuting the points made, and why some champs are viable off meta and some are just troll.

There's a reason why "off meta" picks or innovative picks can work at a high elo. These players have mastered the game and are basically calculating things like gold efficiency on items, considering scalings, team composition, who their lane opponents are not to mention skill above all else. Are you? Or are you just picking Jinx support every time and going 2/9 complaining that no one wants to see a Jinx support in their ranked game and hoping that it works?

I pick offmeta after spending hours calculating stuff. Sometimes it looked so good, I skipped testing. I regret some of that, but that's not a major regret and it should not result in my teammate throwing the game.

How would you feel if your entire team went "off meta" in your definition and built AP on Riven top and goes 1-6 but was "trying". Like think about how much you're handicapping your team by doing this shit, no wonder they'd flame you. The game is hard enough with everyone trying their best to win and you're basically conceding your lane at champ select, with no expected pay out in the late game.

AP Riven has no excuses.

Like the only reason you shouldn't be picking someone who can fufill their role properly is if you're trolling with friends, or a OTP with a champ that you regularly hard carry with, OR it fits your team composition and is perfect for negating a specific threat on the enemy team.

You can have a non-risky pick that doesn't hard carry. That includes offmeta.

If you wanna do this in a normal, fine theres not much at stake for most people. If you try this in ranked and someone gets demoted because bot lost so hard expect to be flamed.

It's funny that I do not play my Sona(not a support one) in normals, because games are much more volatile and my match history might give a bad impression to someone checking it during champ select. Because if I do, it's gonna be another reason to call me a troll and flip the board.

ROYALR3IGNDec 27, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I pick offmeta after spending hours calculating stuff. Sometimes it looked so good, I skipped testing. I regret some of that, but that's not a major regret and it should not result in my teammate throwing the game.

Great cause if you're going to do stuff like this you should at least be able to back it up in theory. There's no question you shouldn't be first timing something like that in ranked though, unless your team really has no way back into a game and you desperately need a specific bandaid but even that's rare. (I'm talking about somehow drafting a full AD team into 3 tanks with Malphite, then maybe its okay to try building some AP on something thats not as effective as AD but still can work like Trist.

AP Riven has no excuses.

Might as well in this context. At least she can build Lich Bane and max out CDR, maybe throw in a nashors. Then it'll be about as useful as Jinx support. lol

You can have a non-risky pick that doesn't hard carry. That includes offmeta.

The point being is if a champ can fulfill a certain role to a reasonable degree against equally matched players. I don't really care if our top lane AP Lucian is doing his thing against a meta pick and winning. The problem is when these people are basically soft inting and hiding behind the wall of "I'm not feeding you can't report me its just off meta". Like don't pull that shit in ranked unless you have tonnes of practice with a relatively fair to good win rate on it. Cause odds are your team is already tilted from doing you picking stuff like this and you'll have to work hard to make sure you don't cause any issues whatsoever or yeah you're going to be the scapegoat.

Going off role is fine, its just is the champ equipped with the right tools to do the job. Goodluck clearing camps with Janna JG, but something like Maokai played support has the ability to peel, engage, provide free vision, whatnot. See the difference here? Both champs bring a ton of utility to the team but only one seems to be able to do both roles to a reasonable degree of effectiveness.

It's funny that I do not play my Sona(not a support one) in normals, because games are much more volatile and my match history might give a bad impression to someone checking it during champ select. Because if I do, it's gonna be another reason to call me a troll and flip the board.

If you've played like 100 games with Sona top and have a 20% win rate with her (not saying you specifically but as an example), you're picking her knowing you're most likely going to lose and in a way deserve whatever flame comes your way. Heck this rule goes for even meta champs. I faced an Irelia top the other day on my alternate account, 91 games played 32% win rate. Like at the point don't pick Irelia, you clearly can't play the champ and are just gonna be breaking someone else's back trying to carry. If you wanna pick her in normals cause shes fun for you, thats fine, but don't do it in my ranked game.

Edit: After taking a peek at your personal stats with Sona, odds are you could probably smack me in lane playing something normal, as you're able to do it with people your own level. So this probably wouldn't apply to you here, its more so for the people that go 1-14 on Cait Support, and then get annoyed that people are flaming them for it. I'm looking at you OP.

SonicAFDec 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arctic Husky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAnK9veg,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2018-12-27T23:15:11.995+0000)

<...> There's no question you shouldn't be first timing something like that in ranked <...>

You shouldn't, but what consequences should people suffer for doing so?

Might as well in this context. At least she can build Lich Bane and max out CDR, maybe throw in a nashors. Then it'll be about as useful as Jinx support. lol

I think I can reach a slightly higher rating with support Jinx than with AP Riven. AP Riven is a much more restrictive thing, while "support" Jinx can be just a mainstream carry that doesn't farm creeps.

The point being is if a champ can fulfill a certain role to a reasonable degree against equally matched players.

You can't define "equally matched". I am a Silver Tryndamere, golden AD Sona, Platinum AP Sona and bronze AD Soraka. My performance might aklso vary depending on how tired or intoxicated I am. My rating displays the average between all of them.

I don't really care if our top lane AP Lucian is doing his thing against a meta pick and winning. The problem is when these people are basically soft inting and hiding behind the wall of "I'm not feeding you can't report me its just off meta". Like don't pull that shit in ranked unless you have tonnes of practice with a relatively fair to good win rate on it. Cause odds are your team is already tilted from doing you picking stuff like this and you'll have to work hard to make sure you don't cause any issues whatsoever or yeah you're going to be the scapegoat.

Even if you are good with AP Lucian, you are gonna have games where you suck. Most people have a skill celling, so this is true for any build or pick.

Going off role is fine, its just is the champ equipped with the right tools to do the job. Goodluck clearing camps with Janna JG

I mained jungle Sona in season 5 and got diamond. Her clear pre-4 was non-existent, but items fixed it later in the game. I can see Janna jungle being successful without competitive earlygame clear if you find some other core strength of that build.

but something like Maokai played support has the ability to peel, engage, provide free vision, whatnot. See the difference here? Both champs bring a ton of utility to the team but only one seems to be able to do both roles to a reasonable degree of effectiveness.

You have no idea why can something be effective. Offmeta builds are often not obvious. Jayce could never be an AD carry, he always borderline unplayable at botlane and always struggled at the lane. Very few people knew that his W with triple Infinity edge wasnable to oneshot lategame Irelia and having bad early was often a valuable tradeoff. And he couldn't farm enough with the build without a support.

"I know it when I see it" is a horrible way to present your opinion as an objective judgement. Don't take so much upon yourself, you might be wrong.

If you've played like 100 games with Sona top and have a 20% win rate with her (not saying you specifically but as an example), you're picking her knowing you're most likely going to lose and in a way deserve whatever flame comes your way. Heck this rule goes for even meta champs. I faced an Irelia top the other day on my alternate account, 91 games played 32% win rate. Like at the point don't pick Irelia, you clearly can't play the champ and are just gonna be breaking someone else's back trying to carry. If you wanna pick her in normals cause shes fun for you, thats fine, but don't do it in my ranked game.

I am glad that we decided that ot has nothing to do with offmeta. Going back to the actual issue: how do you fix people intentionally throwing games because of their prejudice?

Edit: After taking a peek at your personal stats with Sona, odds are you could probably smack me in lane playing something normal, as you're able to do it with people your own level. So this probably wouldn't apply to you here, its more so for the people that go 1-14 on Cait Support, and then get annoyed that people are flaming them for it. I'm looking at you OP.

I think OP's picks should be a part of his rating(and to make it clear - lower than silver means you are worse than average), but it shouldn't be affected by people intentionally losing games because they don't like him.

ROYALR3IGNDec 28, 20182 votes

{quoted}

You shouldn't, but what consequences should people suffer for doing so?

Honestly I don't have an answer for this. Even if it was against the rules theres no real way to enforce it. It's actually one of the reasons why high level players play on smurfs. To learn new champs and strategies they can't wouldn't normally take in a serious game, so its hard to prove that you've played a champ on one account vs actually having no experience.

I think I can reach a slightly higher rating with support Jinx than with AP Riven. AP Riven is a much more restrictive thing, while "support" Jinx can be just a mainstream carry that doesn't farm creeps.

In what universe can a 0 CS Jinx play as a carry? I mean sure utility for its value in itself is alright but as a carry? Might as well be a super minion because odd's are you wouldn't be able to 1 v 1 one without having items on her. But this is beside the issue anyways. Besides this already isn't allowed playing a different role than the one you're given in game. They banned Singe smite, and Nunu second jg for doing this already. I'm more concerned about champions that cannot fulfill a role and purposely picking them in ranked anyways.

You can't define "equally matched". I am a Silver Tryndamere, golden AD Sona, Platinum AP Sona and bronze AD Soraka. My performance might aklso vary depending on how tired or intoxicated I am. My rating displays the average between all of them.

Its a theoretical/relative standard, no 2 players are going to be exactly the same even if they're playing a mirror match up, with the same runes/sums. It refers to people generally around your own skill level because ideally thats what ranked games are supposed to be.

Even if you are good with AP Lucian, you are gonna have games where you suck. Most people have a skill celling, so this is true for any build or pick.

Oh theres no question about that, see the point being is that you can fufill the purpose/role you're given. So for example I'll flip to the opposite side cause I was trying to exaggerate my point by using AP Lucian. Let's say I'm playing top, and I'm actually losing to the said Lucian. I happen to be playing off meta too and I picked Vi. Top generally is reserved for mostly tanks, juggernauts, bruisers. Even if I fall behind with Vi, I'll still be able to do my job soaking damage and peel/engage for my team. This is what is off meta and yet could work because she has the tools to do the job anyways even if its not the most optimal.

I mained jungle Sona in season 5 and got diamond. Her clear pre-4 was non-existent, but items fixed it later in the game. I can see Janna jungle being successful without competitive earlygame clear if you find some other core strength of that build.

Honestly kudos for you for doing the research to make that work. Most people don't and most people can't, but thats also why you probably made it to Diamond.

You have no idea why can something be effective. Offmeta builds are often not obvious. Jayce could never be an AD carry, he always borderline unplayable at botlane and always struggled at the lane. Very few people knew that his W with triple Infinity edge wasnable to oneshot lategame Irelia and having bad early was often a valuable tradeoff. And he couldn't farm enough with the build without a support.

"I know it when I see it" is a horrible way to present your opinion as an objective judgement. Don't take so much upon yourself, you might be wrong.

Does a champion have the tools to properly do the role you're trying to do it with? No? Troll pick. Yes? Off Meta. Every champ has 4 abilities. Its not hard to see if my Nunu support will still have value later in the game versus my AP renekton support.

I am glad that we decided that ot has nothing to do with offmeta. Going back to the actual issue: how do you fix people intentionally throwing games because of their prejudice?

It should be the same punishment for throwing the game anyways. But if we're going to err on the side of a difference, then it should be more lenient through instigation for blatant troll picks.

I think OP's picks should be a part of his rating(and to make it clear - lower than silver means you are worse than average), but it shouldn't be affected by people intentionally losing games because they don't like him.

SonicAFDec 28, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arctic Husky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAnK9veg,comment-id=00070000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-28T19:27:42.791+0000)

In what universe can a 0 CS Jinx play as a carry? I mean sure utility for its value in itself is alright but as a carry? Might as well be a super minion because odd's are you wouldn't be able to 1 v 1 one without having items on her. But this is beside the issue anyways. Besides this already isn't allowed playing a different role than the one you're given in game. They banned Singe smite, and Nunu second jg for doing this already. I'm more concerned about champions that cannot fulfill a role and purposely picking them in ranked anyways.

Goldgain items are not enough to compete with a farming carry(most of the patches), but they provide enough gold to stay relevant while ganging up on people and dealing dps while they are crowd controlled. This is, basically, how AP carry supports work. Are AD carry supports less efficient? Most likely. This will be represented by mmr where they have 50% winrate.

They unbanned Nunu and publically updated their policies, because there was no actual policy before. Every time a player like that contacts player support due to intentional feeding accusations, he is met with "you are flagged as a role stealer", followed by some all-over-the-place bullshit. I find this pretty fishy and I have a theory that Riot's system falsely detected these people and all following conversations were pathetic attempts to find justifications for banning these regardless - and in Nunu's case there was none.

Its a theoretical/relative standard, no 2 players are going to be exactly the same even if they're playing a mirror match up, with the same runes/sums. It refers to people generally around your own skill level because ideally thats what ranked games are supposed to be.

And this is why some people firsttime stuff in ranked. Their rating changes represent how good is what they are doing.

Oh theres no question about that, see the point being is that you can fufill the purpose/role you're given.

Which is not defined. When you click "Play" you meet different people with different picks and different playstyles. I learnt to expect only one thing from my teammates - they should try to win. Enforcing the means of achieving it cripples creativity, makes the game less diverse and exciting. It also adds another layer of stress upon the existing hegemonic punishment system.

So for example I'll flip to the opposite side cause I was trying to exaggerate my point by using AP Lucian. Let's say I'm playing top, and I'm actually losing to the said Lucian. I happen to be playing off meta too and I picked Vi. Top generally is reserved for mostly tanks, juggernauts, bruisers. Even if I fall behind with Vi, I'll still be able to do my job soaking damage and peel/engage for my team. This is what is off meta and yet could work because she has the tools to do the job anyways even if its not the most optimal.

Or you could be Lux, while your mid is Jayce, jungle is nidalee and bottom is velkoz+ezreal, all poking the fuck out of the enemy team. You would personally suck horribly, but provide waveclear and recover later in the game, maybe stealing a nashor with your ult, sealing the game without fulfilling the tank role.

Does a champion have the tools to properly do the role you're trying to do it with? No? Troll pick. Yes? Off Meta. Every champ has 4 abilities. Its not hard to see if my Nunu support will still have value later in the game versus my AP renekton support.

It should be the same punishment for throwing the game anyways. But if we're going to err on the side of a difference, then it should be more lenient through instigation for blatant troll picks.

Core question: Why can AP Renekton support happen? aka "what is the motive?"

ROYALR3IGNDec 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Goldgain items are not enough to compete with a farming carry(most of the patches), but they provide enough gold to stay relevant while ganging up on people and dealing dps while they are crowd controlled. This is, basically, how AP carry supports work. Are AD carry supports less efficient? Most likely. This will be represented by mmr where they have 50% winrate.

The problem is here is that they aren't at least if you're playing properly, there's a reason supports generally fall really far behind and even the "mage" supports that you see are only relevant because they have a percent hp mechanic or true damage. (VK and Brand). The problem with that is that ADC's generally do not have this mechanic outside of Varus and Vayne and so will suffer greatly without items being on par with the rest of the game while not providing the same amount of utility as an actual support is shooting your bot lane in the foot on purpose. Unless your Jg camps bot and is consistently able to kill the enemy to a point where they are equally behind. (But even this isn't good as rest of the map loses jg pressure)

They unbanned Nunu and publically updated their policies, because there was no actual policy before. Every time a player like that contacts player support due to intentional feeding accusations, he is met with "you are flagged as a role stealer", followed by some all-over-the-place bullshit. I find this pretty fishy and I have a theory that Riot's system falsely detected these people and all following conversations were pathetic attempts to find justifications for banning these regardless - and in Nunu's case there was none.

Which it basically is. If you're planning on playing Jinx sup only to then play as a "damage dealer" like you suggested, then are you not effectively doing just that? Role stealing? You're forgoing the support role and instead of peeling and engaging you choose to wait and let the rest of your team pick up the slack for something that is your responsibility.

And this is why some people firsttime stuff in ranked. Their rating changes represent how good is what they are doing.

This is exactly the reason why you shouldn't first time things in ranked. Given that skill is assumed to be equal are you not going to get stomped by someone playing their main champion in ranked? Or even someone whose playing a champ they have a lot of experience on? You're going into the match and handicapping yourself by doing this, which is why you shouldn't.

Which is not defined. When you click "Play" you meet different people with different picks and different playstyles. I learnt to expect only one thing from my teammates - they should try to win. Enforcing the means of achieving it cripples creativity, makes the game less diverse and exciting. It also adds another layer of stress upon the existing hegemonic punishment system.

You do, thats why you'll run into different playstyles and roles throughout your games. Thats why is acceptable to take champs like Darius and Gankplank top while also be able to take Rumble and Lissandra top as well. Both have different roles to play and different styles to fit different team comps. What is not okay is to go hybrid Janna top and proceed to get destroyed, but claim its your first time in ranked playing it and that you're not trolling or inting.

Or you could be Lux, while your mid is Jayce, jungle is nidalee and bottom is velkoz+ezreal, all poking the fuck out of the enemy team. You would personally suck horribly, but provide waveclear and recover later in the game, maybe stealing a nashor with your ult, sealing the game without fulfilling the tank role.

Why on earth would you want pick more wave clear into more wave clear?? Your team has more than enough to siege, why would you not pick someone that can disengage since you want to poke. The biggest weakness of poke comps is engage so if you pick something that doesn't do that AND you're feeding on top of that; no that's not a good thing and yes you are dead weight to a comp that already has enough poke.

Core question: Why can AP Renekton support happen? aka "what is the motive?"

By this Jinx support logic you can at least reliably stun opponents. Then build Rylais and Liandires so your ult can melt people. Its about the same level uselessness as building ancient coin on jinx and then building damage instead of peeling your adc only at least Renekton can actually land his stun more often than Jinx can land her root.

Edited for grammar and spelling.

SonicAFDec 29, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arctic Husky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAnK9veg,comment-id=0007000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-29T19:35:01.210+0000)

The problem is here is that they <...> rest of the map loses jg pressure)

This is an un-argument. Lux, Vel'Koz, (my beloved queen)Zyra, Xerath, Veigar and AP version of Sona are all viable supports successfully plsyed by people in very wide range of rating at some point. Only Brand has a %hp mechanic and it's not why he is strong.

Which it basically is. <...> that is your responsibility.

I don't believe anyone has a set responsibility. By your logic playing AD carry mid is stealing the role from your botlane AD carry, but very few people would treat it this way.

You do, <...> trolling or inting.

Why is hybrid Janna first-time different from Lissandra first-time? Why shoukd we treat them differently?

Why on earth would <...> that already has enough poke.

Your idea that there is "enough" is subjective. It's not a fact that Poppy with all her disengage is 100% a better pick than another poke champion.

By this Jinx support logic you can at least reliably stun opponents. Then build Rylais and Liandires so your ult can melt people. Its about the same level uselessness as building ancient coin on jinx and then building damage instead of peeling your adc only at least Renekton can actually land his stun more often than Jinx can land her root.

You convinced me. AP Renekton can have a 50% winrate at some elo. Coin=>AD carry Jinx is going to have it higher though.

Why is either of them a troll?

ROYALR3IGNDec 29, 20182 votes

{quoted}

This is an un-argument. Lux, Vel'Koz, (my beloved queen)Zyra, Xerath, Veigar and AP version of Sona are all viable supports successfully plsyed by people in very wide range of rating at some point. Only Brand has a %hp mechanic and it's not why he is strong.

Those supports are viable because they also bring strong utility to a team like traditional supports do, not to mention they actually build AP which is better than having 2 AD damage types on your bot lane. You're right though, I should definitely have included more "mage type" supports in my definition because I agree with this part.

Although I have to disagree with the Brand part, the HP% mechanic he has allows him to shred through most teams that don't know to stand apart from each other because he doesn't need as much gold to still do that kind of damage.

I don't believe anyone has a set responsibility. By your logic playing AD carry mid is stealing the role from your botlane AD carry, but very few people would treat it this way.

I do! To a degree though, if your team picks a double mage bot lane, I have no qualms about someone that locks in something like Lucian or Corki mid as your team lacks DPS and AD you're filling a role that the "bot lane" technically stole from you.

Thats why theres people fighting for positions in champ select. Thats why Riot had to mandate in ranked where you go because it was such a problem in champ select before that they caved and said,"Okay first pick doesn't mean what role you're going and last pick doesn't always mean you have to play support." This is why tonnes of people would still rather wait longer que times than get autofilled into a role they hate. Otherwise no one would care what lane they ended up in because they could just pick whatever and be successful. But the reality of this is they can't and people were really toxic about this so much to a point that Riot had to change champ select because of it.

Why is hybrid Janna first-time different from Lissandra first-time? Why shoukd we treat them differently?

Honestly they're both gonna be shit but the point I'm making still stands and its that don't first time stupid stuff in ranked. Don't pick things you've never had experience with before in ranked. I'm actually for the idea that you should have played a certain number of games on a champ before you're allowed to pick them in ranked. I don't really care if you've played them in ARAM or Norms or Rotating game mode but I don't think you should allowed to seriously compete with players that are trying their best to win and you're picking a first time champ, as thats intentionally sandbagging in a serious mode because you know damn well you can play better with other champs and you chose to mess around in ranked play.

Your idea that there is "enough" is subjective. It's not a fact that Poppy with all her disengage is 100% a better pick than another poke champion.

Maybe Poppy specifically might not be a better pick but, if you pick 80% of your team (4/5) to be poke, objectively thats a lot.

You convinced me. AP Renekton can have a 50% winrate at some elo. Coin=>AD carry Jinx is going to have it higher though.

Why is either of them a troll?

They're both troll lol, that's the point. I'm saying you can justify stupid crap by sugar coating why it might work, but we both know both of these builds are no where near optimal stand alone, nevermind to fit into a team comp thats trying to win.

Also I'd like to add I'm glad we're doing this civily and not just hurling insults at each other even though we disagree with a lot of things. It's nice to have that going even if we're from different servers and see things really differently.

SonicAFDec 30, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arctic Husky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAnK9veg,comment-id=000700000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-29T22:35:33.305+0000)

I do! To a degree though, if your team picks a double mage bot lane, I have no qualms about someone that locks in something like Lucian or Corki mid as your team lacks DPS and AD you're filling a role that the "bot lane" technically stole from you.

There are people(at least there were in some patches) maining Lucian or Jhin mid. Kai'Sa also happens there, though she is often hybrid.

Treating that as role stealing would cut out a piece of natural meta evolution.

Thats why theres people fighting for positions in champ select. Thats why Riot had to mandate in ranked where you go because it was such a problem in champ select before that they caved and said,"Okay first pick doesn't mean what role you're going and last pick doesn't always mean you have to play support." This is why tonnes of people would still rather wait longer que times than get autofilled into a role they hate. Otherwise no one would care what lane they ended up in because they could just pick whatever and be successful. But the reality of this is they can't and people were really toxic about this so much to a point that Riot had to change champ select because of it.

Because their main doesn't work as goid at other lanes. Even if you learn to not instantly lose games as support Rengar, it shuts down your ability to snowball as good as if you were jungle. There are reasons to desire a lane other than exact set of responsibilities.

So support Rengar doesn't perform as good as jungle one and he can't heal his AD carry like Soraka. Does that automatically mean that he can't be played? No, because there could be other ways to win the game as support Rengar and he got nerfed for them. But this, while viable and extremely frustrating to play against, was never the same as jungle Rengar.

You should also take into consideration that the amount of gold supports gain skyrocketed since season 3. Their income is compareable to other champions, but it is slightly delayed earlygame.

Honestly they're <...> mess around in ranked play.

So this is not the issue of offmeta, right? It seems like you argue against first-timing in general.

Maybe Poppy specifically might not be a better pick but, if you pick 80% of your team (4/5) to be poke, objectively thats a lot.

You could go for 100% poke and win, especially on our ratings. I was on the short side of this stick once and it wasn't pretty. Before nidalee got reworked, so the exact set of champions was slightly different.

They're both troll lol, that's the point. I'm saying you can justify stupid crap by sugar coating why it might work, but we both know both of these builds are no where near optimal stand alone, nevermind to fit into a team comp thats trying to win.

AP Renekton can have unique strengths that someone loves and if there is some enthusiast, who genuinely tries to climb with the build as high as possible, he calibrates to his deserved rating with 50% winrate and I believe we should give him a pass.

Liandry-Rylai combo is one hell of a crutch, but it can work on an AD champion if it synergizes with his utility. And in Renekton's case it, theoretically, does. This is how some ADC mages function, despite having no AD or AS steroid.

Also I'd like to add I'm glad we're doing this civily and not just hurling insults at each other even though we disagree with a lot of things. It's nice to have that going even if we're from different servers and see things really differently.

I am coming from the perspective of an offmeta player, who cheeses the fuck out of the enemy team, having this habbit from DotA1. You are coming from the perspective of someone who wants more stable and less volatile games, because you tend to meet people picking stupid shit out of spite, making sure you know what they are doing, but getting away with it.

Do you remember pre-rework Evelynn? The one with Master Yi's ult, after her stun got replaced with a slow. Merely picking her was a good way to make your team mad. Oh, an Nunu. It was not disco Janna or Soraka. It was Nunu, because he wad clunky, old and dysfunctional.

Anything that upsets people, is abused to make them upset. Over this entire conversation, I am leading to the idea, that perception of offmeta is so bad, that people are willing to stop playing simply because they have a player with the pick they don't trust. This mentality hurts both sides - legit offmeta players, who want games without teammates going bananas and meta players, who get trolled by weird picks, specifically to upset them.

Community that is more tolerant towards offmeta and more educated about actual rules would significantly reduce the amount of griefers trying to get on your nerves using a champion pick. It's beneficial to everyone.

ROYALR3IGNJan 2, 20191 votes

{quoted}

There are people(at least there were in some patches) maining Lucian or Jhin mid. Kai'Sa also happens there, though she is often hybrid.

Treating that as role stealing would cut out a piece of natural meta evolution.

All three of those champs have enough burst or bring AP to the team which does fulfill the role which is why it became a thing in the first place. However even if they didn't, and you picked something like Cait, if your team lacked DPS, and you were a solid ADC player I'd have no issues with it because your team decided for a Rengar + Pantheon bot lane.

Because their main doesn't work as goid at other lanes. Even if you learn to not instantly lose games as support Rengar, it shuts down your ability to snowball as good as if you were jungle. There are reasons to desire a lane other than exact set of responsibilities.

I don't disagree with this part. But it could be a mix of both of our reasons.

So support Rengar doesn't perform as good as jungle one and he can't heal his AD carry like Soraka. Does that automatically mean that he can't be played? No, because there could be other ways to win the game as support Rengar and he got nerfed for them. But this, while viable and extremely frustrating to play against, was never the same as jungle Rengar.

Does support Rengar have the potential to work? Yup. Why? He brings kill pressure and therefore can zone the enemy off minions. He also has his CC on less than half the cd of Jinx chompers (10s vs. 24s) and won't have to worry about going oom. nor is it as telegraphed making it much more reliable.

You should also take into consideration that the amount of gold supports gain skyrocketed since season 3. Their income is compareable to other champions, but it is slightly delayed earlygame.

It has, but definitely not to the extent where you can play a second ADC in the bot lane. Think of it this way, being an ADC if you're behind on a component vs the opposite ADC you should not be trading and cannot with the enemy ADC unless you have an advantage in range, sustain, or numbers. Now imagine constantly being a several items down for most of the game. You're going to be useless as both damage and as a support for the entirety of the game.

So this is not the issue of offmeta, right? It seems like you argue against first-timing in general.

The intent is "are you going to be useful to this team/situation" in the simplest terms. So yes that's going to include being against first timing champions in ranked, its going to be against picking stuff thats no where near optimal for a role, its going to be against building like an idiot but "trying" to win.

You could go for 100% poke and win, especially on our ratings. I was on the short side of this stick once and it wasn't pretty. Before nidalee got reworked, so the exact set of champions was slightly different.

AP Renekton can have unique strengths that someone loves and if there is some enthusiast, who genuinely tries to climb with the build as high as possible, he calibrates to his deserved rating with 50% winrate and I believe we should give him a pass.

If you manage to get a +50% winrate with that champ without straight up gimping the rest of your team to do it. Fine. But only if you have more than like 20 games played with it doing that exact same thing. Why? Because you have to be damn good to pull that off.

Liandry-Rylai combo is one hell of a crutch, but it can work on an AD champion if it synergizes with his utility. And in Renekton's case it, theoretically, does. This is how some ADC mages function, despite having no AD or AS steroid.

I am coming from the perspective of an offmeta player, who cheeses the fuck out of the enemy team, having this habbit from DotA1. You are coming from the perspective of someone who wants more stable and less volatile games, because you tend to meet people picking stupid shit out of spite, making sure you know what they are doing, but getting away with it.

Not even out of spite, just things that are done as off meta for the sake of being off meta and not because there's a legimate reason you're playing AP Renekton in ranked. I don't think our OP here is picking Jinx sup to troll people intentionally, it sounds like he actually likes it but tbh its pretty troll in terms of efficiency.

Do you remember pre-rework Evelynn? The one with Master Yi's ult, after her stun got replaced with a slow. Merely picking her was a good way to make your team mad. Oh, an Nunu. It was not disco Janna or Soraka. It was Nunu, because he wad clunky, old and dysfunctional.

I don't think I go that far back, I started in Season 3 and Eve's ult then was a big shield and percent current health damage. As for Nunu, going disco any thing is pretty troll.

Anything that upsets people, is abused to make them upset. Over this entire conversation, I am leading to the idea, that perception of offmeta is so bad, that people are willing to stop playing simply because they have a player with the pick they don't trust. This mentality hurts both sides - legit offmeta players, who want games without teammates going bananas and meta players, who get trolled by weird picks, specifically to upset them.

I agree with this, but I think there's a difference between taking Wu Kong top whose no where near meta rn versus going AP Renekton Sup. One of these is borderline troll, while the other at least gets the job done.

Community that is more tolerant towards offmeta and more educated about actual rules would significantly reduce the amount of griefers trying to get on your nerves using a champion pick. It's beneficial to everyone.

Agree. But refer to the point above.

SonicAFJan 4, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Arctic Husky,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAnK9veg,comment-id=00070000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-01-02T18:14:27.431+0000)

All three of those champs have enough burst or bring AP to the team which does fulfill the role which is why it became a thing in the first place. However even if they didn't, and you picked something like Cait, if your team lacked DPS, and you were a solid ADC player I'd have no issues with it because your team decided for a Rengar + Pantheon bot lane.

Let's go deeper. You are an adc main, your botlane has Ashe and the rest if the team is AP. You are mid. Are you stealing Ashe's role if you pick MF or Caitlyn? You are doubling up on the existing stuff, but it's potentially more useful than picking more mages and you are going to perform better thn first-time Talon.

It has, but definitely not to the extent where you can play a second ADC in the bot lane. Think of it this way, being an ADC if you're behind on a component vs the opposite ADC you should not be trading and cannot with the enemy ADC unless you have an advantage in range, sustain, or numbers. Now imagine constantly being a several items down for most of the game. You're going to be useless as both damage and as a support for the entirety of the game.

Jinx usually has a range advantage, it's not your job to outperform the enemy ad carry or trade with him 1v1 when you are in a support slot and there is a massive waste of cs in the midgame(at least at my elo) that allows you to compensate for the earlygame. She also has a massive waveclear with a couple of items, allowing her to counter sieges with Nashor(the buff is designed to counter magic damage).

The intent is "are you going to be useful to this team/situation" in the simplest terms. So yes that's going to include being against first timing champions in ranked, its going to be against picking stuff thats no where near optimal for a role, its going to be against building like an idiot but "trying" to win.

I am not sure we have an authority that can determine whether one is building like an idiot or has some good idea.

If you manage to get a +50% winrate with that champ without straight up gimping the rest of your team to do it. Fine. But only if you have more than like 20 games played with it doing that exact same thing. Why? Because you have to be damn good to pull that off.

Actually, no. All you need to do is OTP this champion. I don't believe AP-tank-support Renekton is bad enough to be restricted to Iron 4 and all other divisions require a 50%ish winrate to not drop out of them.

That Irelia of yours. I bet she climbed up with something else and sucked with Irelia. Otherwise she would be at her "Irelia mmr" much faster than 100 games and start winning half the time, despite not getting better at playing Irelia.

Not even out of spite, just things that are done as off meta for the sake of being off meta and not because there's a legimate reason you're playing AP Renekton in ranked. I don't think our OP here is picking Jinx sup to troll people intentionally, it sounds like he actually likes it but tbh its pretty troll in terms of efficiency.

I agree, might be their motivation. Still, I consider these people are mostly harmless as long as they stick to their mmr. Here is an example.

I want to level an ADC Soraka account for the sake of playing adc Soraka. I am a seasoned adc player and I won't have much trouble making it decent in Iron or Bronze(maybe Silver) and my fresh account is going to reflect that with shiny 50% winrate. I won't boost myself with playing other champions and thus all other players in a match are going to be as efficient as me.

Of course, I will get stomped sometimes if I am playing at my deserved elo, regardless of my pick.

Please, try to justify:

Banning this account by Riot Games.
Getting back at the topic of the post, ruining my game for playing ADC Soraka by running down mid or staying afk.

Keep in mind that she, on average, is a more stable and reliable representation of her rating than other players, switching champions all the time.

I agree with this, but I think there's a difference between taking Wu Kong top whose no where near meta rn versus going AP Renekton Sup. One of these is borderline troll, while the other at least gets the job done.

I've seen enough 1/8/3 wukongs unable to deal damage and blaming the team, to question the part about getting the job done.

The fact that a meta or an offmeta build didn't fly in your particular game doesn't mean that it never works or that the pick is to be blamed.

ROYALR3IGNJan 4, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Let's go deeper. You are an adc main, your botlane has Ashe and the rest if the team is AP. You are mid. Are you stealing Ashe's role if you pick MF or Caitlyn? You are doubling up on the existing stuff, but it's potentially more useful than picking more mages and you are going to perform better thn first-time Talon.

There are lots of things you can do. Beg to play ADC in champ select. Don't pick a mechanically difficult champion if you're not comfy with a role (you can't tell me theres someone out there who can't play a point and click champ like Annie). And no matter who you pick mid, as long as you lose gracefully and don't feed 50 kills to the enemy mid laner, and shove when they're roaming, you're going to be more useful than having 2 ADC's on your team, unless your team has 3 tanks in the other roles that are willing to peel for you or 3 AP carries for some reason. And even if you still opt to pick Cait, you're still going to be on par with the rest of the game as you'll have a steady gold/exp stream but thats another discussion all together.

Jinx usually has a range advantage, it's not your job to outperform the enemy ad carry or trade with him 1v1 when you are in a support slot and there is a massive waste of cs in the midgame(at least at my elo) that allows you to compensate for the earlygame. She also has a massive waveclear with a couple of items, allowing her to counter sieges with Nashor(the buff is designed to counter magic damage).

Generally what? You hit 500 gold earned with any support item at 10 Min if you proc everything perfectly? That's not even 1/4 of a primary item. Most games are 30 minutes ish so 1500 gold give or take, and if you spend more gold to upgrade the item to get wards like you're supposed to it offsets the amount gained by the increased stacks. So yeah a BF Sword and pots at 30 minutes doesn't really do much. And even this is assuming you get every proc off and spend your entire time in a lane doing that. Does any support do this? Nope. They should be missing stacks by the mid game to roam and ward objectives. Because Jinx is so item reliant it's not feasible without sacrificing the actual role so you probably wouldn't even hit the minimum of 1500 by 30 min.

Also if you're buying IE and Hurricane for that insane wave clear, thats 6200 gold. Not including boots. Think about how much gold you can receive vs how much you need to come online and to be a threat to the other side. Even then you're not playing support, you're just playing ADC minus farming. Even the cheaper Stormrazor + Hurricane is 5600. And you're going to be nowhere near that threshold for even 1 item by then.

Also yes she does generally outrange people, only even with that said she can't zone the enemy when she doesn't have the items to do damage. Tickle Jinx isn't going to achieve anything excepting being easy gold for the enemy team. The components of a knights vow will shrug off any poke that she can output before getting hard engaged on.

I am not sure we have an authority that can determine whether one is building like an idiot or has some good idea.

This isn't really an excuse. By this definition I can just build 6 Tear of the goddess to show how salty I am and that wouldn't be punishable? I don't follow this.

Actually, no. All you need to do is OTP this champion. I don't believe AP-tank-support Renekton is bad enough to be restricted to Iron 4 and all other divisions require a 50%ish winrate to not drop out of them.

You mean aside from not being able to do anything until level 6? Maybe you won't get punished in Iron for being non existent as a champ till 6 but trying to climb with that will net you more losses than necessary, and with it more pissed off teammates than necessary.

That Irelia of yours. I bet she climbed up with something else and sucked with Irelia. Otherwise she would be at her "Irelia mmr" much faster than 100 games and start winning half the time, despite not getting better at playing Irelia.

I wish that was the case. I was playing on a fresh 30 Account playing ranked for the first time. Naturally you start in Iron 4, and thats where I ran into her. I think she went 0-7 in the first 10 minutes. I can imagine the flame on the enemy team.

I agree, might be their motivation. Still, I consider these people are mostly harmless as long as they stick to their mmr. Here is an example.

The problem is winning puts them into an elo where they will be punished and thoroughly destroyed if they are carried by teammates that are trying their hardest to win. A simple test to see if you should or shouldn't do something is "if everyone did it would it be okay?" If you're trying hard to win in your elo, and you 4 people on your team doing, ADC's not taking gold, mages building AD, on hit karma going top how would you feel?

I want to level an ADC Soraka account for the sake of playing adc Soraka. I am a seasoned adc player and I won't have much trouble making it decent in Iron or Bronze(maybe Silver) and my fresh account is going to reflect that with shiny 50% winrate. I won't boost myself with playing other champions and thus all other players in a match are going to be as efficient as me.

How many people are even as remotely responsible as this? Cause I'm pretty sure this guy is doing Sup Jinx seriously.

Of course, I will get stomped sometimes if I am playing at my deserved elo, regardless of my pick.

But it's much less likely to happen if you're playing something that goes well into whatever you're facing. At least you've given yourself the best chance to win, as you should tbh.

Please, try to justify:

Banning this account by Riot Games.

Getting back at the topic of the post, ruining my game for playing ADC Soraka by running down mid or staying afk.

Should they be banned from doing this? I don't know. Should there be someway to discourage this? Probably. I personally lean libertarian when approaching situations so I want to say pick what you want, and I hate the idea of having a larger entity like Riot come down on people over something they should have autonomy over, but the second part of libertarianism is that you can do what you want until you harm others that's where the line is being drawn, and because there are 4 other people on your team, you shouldn't to do this in a serious game mode.

You should be trying your hardest to win, and giving your team the best chance of success. There's a reason its called Most Effective Tactic Available, even if you suck given the META at the time and you pick something that's not FOTM you should pick something that will still bring the most benefit to your team if it's an odd pick but you're amazing and sure you can at least win your lane with it at it then fine, but have some decency and don't build like an idiot. (Not aiming this at you specifically but in general)

I'd argue you're probably doing the same thing in their eyes. Only difference is that its not as blatant as running it down mid or AFK in base but the effect is basically the same? You're intentionally picking something suboptimal for fun when there are many other champs that can bring the same thing and do the role better, even if you're more skilled, it just means theres even more you can do by picking something normal. Should they be punished for trolling/inting and not trying their hardest? Yup. No argument from me there, should you? That's a different question.

Keep in mind that she, on average, is a more stable and reliable representation of her rating than other players, switching champions all the time.

I've seen enough 1/8/3 wukongs unable to deal damage and blaming the team, to question the part about getting the job done.

Even if you don't deal damage, take aftershock and still proceed to be an ult bot giving tonnes of teamfight potential for your team. And soak enemy cooldowns in fights. Wu brings tonnes of disruption with his ult and even if he's 1-8 he's still got the potential to be more useful than a Jinx sup that's 1-5.

The fact that a meta or an offmeta build didn't fly in your particular game doesn't mean that it never works or that the pick is to be blamed.

It didn't happen to me. I'm arguing that it shouldn't happen to anyone. I only targeted this thread because OP made a post a few days before this thread saying he wanted to play Jinx Sup and was looking to see if he should play Nasus or Nunu support. All he did was make a face, then posted this thread.

EonslegacyFeb 4, 20191 votes

You sir are obviously the jinx mains that never throw out their traps. Of course you have no clue how strong they are when used. You dont know how many jinxes dont even realize thats a button, but it is, and its range is screen long. Try usingit more you might understand why they take that support. But i guess your the kinda person that Zaps someone stunned by bard instead of trapping them THEN zapping them.

ROYALR3IGNFeb 4, 20192 votes

{quoted}

You sir are obviously the jinx mains that never throw out their traps. Of course you have no clue how strong they are when used. You dont know how many jinxes dont even realize thats a button, but it is, and its range is screen long. Try usingit more you might understand why they take that support. But i guess your the kinda person that Zaps someone stunned by bard instead of trapping them THEN zapping them.

First of all, I don't even main Jinx. That doesn't mean I don't know what her abilities do.

Her traps are strong as deterrents and follow up CC; that's about it. What they aren't good for, is the immediate peel that an ADC needs to keep assassins off or disengage/engage that a real support brings. And outside of lane, if you land a stun and follow up with Jinx traps you shouldn't be pressing W, you should auto then W then follow up with another auto, that's the maximum damage output and keeps the enemy cc'd for the longest duration.

That said, Jinx is still a terrible pick for a support.

EonslegacyFeb 4, 20191 votes

Id be more surprised she gota kill and be happy about that 1/6 toplane riven as i know she still has cc. As opposed to the jg who afked at 7mins after screaming about ap riven. Riven probably went 1/6 from getting an early kill, then tryna snowball the enemy jg ganked then rivens jg afked. then she and her team tried to win but the afk was just to much weight to carry.

ROYALR3IGNFeb 4, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Id be more surprised she gota kill and be happy about that 1/6 toplane riven as i know she still has cc. As opposed to the jg who afked at 7mins after screaming about ap riven. Riven probably went 1/6 from getting an early kill, then tryna snowball the enemy jg ganked then rivens jg afked. then she and her team tried to win but the afk was just to much weight to carry.

First of all, going 1-6 is actually worse than going 0-6 unless you got the kill first and then for whatever reason died 6 times in a row because it resets your kill bounty. Odds are if you've already died 5+ times in lane you're not going to be carrying the game. Just give the kills over to the rest of the team instead of resetting your gold and handing it to the enemy.

Second, I completely agree that you shouldn't be going AFK and spend the entire game just bitching about someone going AP Riven. You still have agency over yourself to do what you can to win the game. My only problem here is people doing stuff like AP Riven in ranked. If you're going to go off meta in ranked, you'd better have a history of doing well with something. I'm not equating one wrong with another wrong. I'm saying don't do anything stupid that you know is going to handicap your team. AP Riven has CC fine I'll give you that and that's about it. You know what AD Riven has? CC, and sustain, and burst, and a surprising amount of tankyness. One of these builds can do the exact same thing as the other +3000 other things. That's why they're played a certain way normally.

EonslegacyApr 12, 20191 votes

True, but an intentional feeder and or a guy trying NOT to win will yield less positive results than the worst thing i could think of, and that was AP riven. Also the comment about Jinx was about jinx adc not jinx support and i was just comparing bad players with bad plays as opposed to bad champions with bad plays. A 0 attackspeed Full lethality/AD jinx support that maxes ZAP!!! will do FAR better than a gangplank farming wolves or blue when the baron team fight breaks out. I just got out of a game with a Jinx was why I used Jinx, i assume your NOT a jinx main from your name tbh. But I played cho support ludens first REAL item. My q hit for 700 on the enemy Cait who had 1200 max health. I hit 2 in a row and the sona healer and 3 pots down she was at 20% health, never once did THAT jinx lay traps down, instead she just flamed for the pick and justified the end game scores with the pick instead of WHY they occured. I can almost guarantee that any "OFF META" anything will have about 30% LESS winrate than it actually effectively pulls simply because 30% of games are predetermined losses by the TEAMMATES of that player actively TRYING TO LOSE and not at ALL by the player himself. This is before you start factoring in AFKs that would normally happen or ragers/trolls that would normally occur. When ap cho jg was meta i had a 85% winrate on him on my first account, now that he isnt really meta i get around 40% to 50% on a good day. The q is better now than before, the R does roughly the same damage because of the new items and buffed runes(gargoyles doesnt break it anymore tho). Its always FUN to end the game with a CC score of 200+ and be considered WHY your team lost in a 30 minute game. To explain how toxic people get, try locking in Rammus against a full ad teamcomp and be considered TROLL because you didnt pick maokai and rammus is AND I QUOTE "NOT GOOD VS AD TEAMCOMPS MAOKAI IS BETTER" .... thats the people that play league. Also remember boys if the enemy team is Aatrox Kayn DrMundo Sona Draven Build Lord Doms for the pen ;) as mortal reminder doesnt buff damage numbers ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) seriously someone said that. Even tyler 1 himself build Lord doms over mortal reminder because his chat told him to /facepalm vs mundo vlad kayn(rhast).

ΗuaweiJan 2, 20192 votes

You forgot:

Post-game.

If you end up carrying your team nobody honours you and you just avoid reports.

As someone who plays crazy stuff like Klepto soraka, cassio and quinn support i confirm all of that is true and has made me hardstuck at times even though i could win the game otherwise

Even if i pick different summoners on my support everyone flips their shit and starts pinging me my summoner's choice

ØrnnToGetTrolleÐDec 27, 20181 votes

Well... I played against a Comet Ignite Amumu top. In ranked solo queue.

There is no way anybody can say he wasn't griefing. Just... No... I refuse.

FlashesFeb 22, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Well... I played against a Comet Ignite Amumu top. In ranked solo queue.

There is no way anybody can say he wasn't griefing. Just... No... I refuse.

I've seen thresh with Arcane Comet. I actually shed a tear.

For those of you who don't get it, both Q and E will displace the enemy champion from the actual comet, making R the only ability to reliably hit Arcane Comet with.

EonslegacyFeb 4, 20191 votes

Yep pretty much how it goes. Dont worry those guys arent good players at all anyway, they just want someone to blame their losses on. Usually its the jungler now its you. Look at their match history typically they are auto filled when you get flamed and you are in the roll they wanted so they just wanna run it down mid and they were mad at you before the match started. Most people low elo grief off meta becuase htey are low elo and bad. its rarely done in challenger/master tier.

EonslegacyFeb 4, 20191 votes

Its just a sign that those players can ONLY climb with the best meta picks on their team.

ADC YuumiFeb 4, 20191 votes

Meanwhile there's underdogs mastering off-meta to the point where it needs to be nerfed. ( Jungle Ezreal and Inting Sion to be precise. )

Sometimes it's just someone building something to counter someone in game which isn't on their item list. ( Lulu with Dead Mans so she can follow her ADC and not get OHKO'd by a Kayn. )

And sometimes, when you're not even in ranked; they'll still "pick" on you for whatever you're trying. ( I'm currently perfecting Jinx Support for my guide, meanwhile they instaban Jinx, dodge or the ADC refuses to lane with me. )

EonslegacyApr 12, 20191 votes

I dont dis jinx support, i wouldnt play it becuase of her delay, but overall its always better than the inter thats tryna lose or the flamer that ISNT trying to win.