all rounded champion designs hurts jungle balance

The Deckowner·Sep 4, 2016·39 votes·2,842 views

Right now the jungle champion pool is separated in two groups.

Group 1 are champions with simplistic kits and all have one or two specific strength(niche) compare to others. these champions are usually older, and they rarely cause balancing problems because it is very easy to nerf them to a reasonable power level. Example:

Group 2 is the problem I mentioned in the title. They have too much going in their kit, making it that in any meta, unless their numbers were terrible, they would always be better than anyone in group 1 because they can do the things group 1 champions do and can't do. Example: (i guess the nerfs on gragas didn't matter too much)

these group two champions are too well rounded, which makes it that, no matter the situation, it is usually just better to pick the group 2 champions. this makes the jungle balance really hard, and causes unhealthy gameplays.

98 Comments

NarvuntienSep 4, 201614 votes

As frustrating to play against LeeSin is, he appears to be balanced now. huge amount of early game damage transistioning into a kick bot late game. Elise is kind of just better at that job with her cacoon and her % hp damage means she does sort of scale okay and not having to wait until 6 for the pick CC is important.

Nidalee is crowding out similar champions like Shyvana and even Udyr . But since she can be quite meh unless in expert hands. Nerfs need only to slow her clear a little but without getting her killed trying to do it, it is possible that we are talking very small numbers changes. I think her swipe might be the best place to target if she can't just AoE kill the little mobs in the jungle it would slow her right down.

All RekSai needs is good teamwork to be good. Her weaknes is lack of vision. If your team is good, that isn't a weakness. Since she is typically built very tanky perhaps she can take hit to the clear speed and/or first clear hp. to bring her into like with other tank junglers which can struggle in that first clear, with low damage and fairly high cooldowns.

Gragas needs cooldown nerfs on all his abilities, he has mobility and CC on short cooldowns he can just keep coming back to fight, when compared to other jungle tanks. I swear he was the only cinderhulk jungler that didn't get a nerf. ( know he builds echo now)

Kindred appears to be appropraitely nerfed but it is sort of tied to how good your team is at keeping her out of your jungle.

you forgot Graves , the ranged brusier.. definately problematic. since he AoE auto attacks and doesn't take damage. Perhaps lower the knock back on larger monsters?

The DeckownerSep 4, 20166 votes

the thing about graves is his strength is so over the top that his weaknesses are completely irrelevant. Honestly hate this champion, not sure why the designer think literally taking 0 dmg while having aoe auto attack clear is healthy chanpion design. despite all the nerfs he is still strong, guess who else took a bunch of nerf but still op due to unhealthy kit? cough gp cough kalista cough azir cough reksai cough.

CeexSettSep 4, 20161 votes

I'm sorry, but Kalista is definetely not OP anymore. Maybe if you are Diamond+ duo'ing with your support/competitive, and even then she is jsut mediocre, and Jinx is just way better at everything except saving the support. In the rest of play she is garbage, and imo the worst adc

The DeckownerSep 4, 20163 votes

she had her base stats and scalings gutted and she is currently yorick state because rito had no idea how to fix her overloaded toxic kit, same thing is happening to reksai.

CeexSettSep 4, 20162 votes

I know that, i was just stating that Kalista doesn't remain OP after all her nerfs, and Azir is actually not that well either, but he still works.

Gp on the other hand seems to always be in the same spot after 3 thousand nerfs.

The DeckownerSep 4, 20162 votes

well both kalista and azir literally had part of their kit removed, if that happen to gp then we might see him go down.

WolfChasesSep 5, 20161 votes

I never had a single problem against Elisem barely anyone picks her and when they do, it's just meh....I think she's pretty balanced right now.

LankPantsSep 4, 20167 votes

Group 2 is the problem I mentioned in the title. They have too much going in their kit, making it that in any meta, unless their numbers were terrible, they would always be better than anyone in group 1 because they can do the things group 1 champions do and can't do. Example: (not quite sure about gragas)

IMO this group is basically comprised of Ekko Elise Fizz Gragas Hecarim LeeSin Nidalee RekSai Shaco Skarner

These champs, when capable of jungling have a tenancy to just take over games as their kits are highly lacking in actual weaknesses.

TwinkieProSep 4, 201617 votes

As a shaco and lee main (yeah, you can call me biased), they both have clear weaknesses.

Shaco is heavily reliant on snowballing early game, either himself or his teammates As all he brings to the table is (mostly) damage, and his boxes don't scale in health and have to be pre-placed in the late game. Shaco excels at ganking, and eventually assassination come teamfighting. If he doesn't get the gold recquired of him to pop the squishies, then he isn't doing his job.

Lee excels as an early game duelist, being beaten out by only a few champions. Once he hits 6, his ganks can become devestating to the enemy team IF pulled off correctly. However, unless the game ends quickly OR your team becomes fed, Lee sin loses a lot of his power. Were he to build full damage, he would rarely kill a target and get out in a team fight, even with his built in escapes. That's why most lee's build bruiser, to survive the dive. Much like Shaco, if you have vision on lee, he loses out on a lot of his power. Late game, he is literally an insec machine with good chase potential, but he cant dive headfirst into a fight and get off sustained damage, nor survive it long enough come late game.

What all the others (minus assassins) have is sustained damage, tankiness, and strong CC, with equally strong clear times and ganking potential.

LankPantsSep 4, 20168 votes

Shaco is heavily reliant on snowballing early game, either himself or his teammates As all he brings to the table is (mostly) damage, and his boxes don't scale in health and have to be pre-placed in the late game. Shaco excels at ganking, and eventually assassination come teamfighting. If he doesn't get the gold recquired of him to pop the squishies, then he isn't doing his job.

I'm not really going to argue too much on Shaco because I do think he is the most borderline of the champions I listed anyway. My basic rational for listing him is that if he were ever buffed to the point where he was a competitive champ he'd have a playstyle which would revolve around crushing enemy junglers out of the game before they ever had a chance to respond. This is the degenerate and low counterplay style which I believe defines most competitive junglers right now.

Lee excels as an early game duelist, being beaten out by only a few champions. Once he hits 6, his ganks can become devestating to the enemy team IF pulled off correctly.

Skill is a non-factor in competitive play. The players we are talking about are skilled enough to learn any champ and all of the tricks they need to play them properly. Therefor Lee is an excellent dullest with insane post 6 ganks in pro play.

However, unless the game ends quickly OR your team becomes fed, Lee sin loses a lot of his power. Were he to build full damage, he would rarely kill a target and get out in a team fight, even with his built in escapes. That's why most lee's build bruiser, to survive the dive.

The exact same logic is applicable to Elise and Rek'sai. They both crush early and transition into tankier fighters late game.

Much like Shaco, if you have vision on lee, he loses out on a lot of his power. Late game, he is literally an insec machine with good chase potential, but he cant dive headfirst into a fight and get off sustained damage, nor survive it long enough come late game.

I don't understand what your argument here is to be honest. Lee 100% has the same degenerate playstyle as Rek'sai and Elise. He starts the game absurdly powerful, capable of dueling and invading weaker junglers. Then he builds tankier into the late game to abuse the strong utility and high bases on his kit. Stop me if this sounds familiar.

What all the others (minus assassins) have is sustained damage, tankiness, and strong CC, with equally strong clear times and ganking potential.

I must have missed the part where Elise and Nidalee are tanky, or where Nid has strong CC, or even where Gragas has strong sustained damage.

What these junglers share is strong early games that they use to suppress any other jungler who might otherwise see play. This is specifically why I did not list Graves or Kindred, I do not believe that they fall into this pattern in the same way as the other jungles I listed, even if they are stronger than the majority. I was also iffy about Gragas for a similar reason.

I believe Graves and Kindred have major problems, but I don't think they are the same as this group.

TwinkieProSep 4, 20161 votes

I don't understand what your argument here is to be honest. Lee 100% has the same degenerate playstyle as Rek'sai and Elise. He starts the game absurdly powerful, capable of dueling and invading weaker junglers. Then he builds tankier into the late game to abuse the strong utility and high bases on his kit. Stop me if this sounds familiar.<

I dont understand how "doesnt dive headfirst into a fight" is the same playstyle as Rek'sai. That is the exact opposite of what she does. Rek'sai's engage is also much easier and reliable to pull off. Literally flash on them. Lee could do this, but now he has no way of redirecting his kick. He can net a kill, just in a much more difficult manner. He then gets CC'd and is lucky to get out with more than half his HP. Rek'sai on the other hand builds heavily into tank and could survive farm more easily.

Elise can be compared there, sure, but comparing styles between champion doesnt change much of my argument, which is that vision detracts power from their kits. Elise is viable in LCS, but Lee isn't. The reason being that elise has much better crowd control, where she doesnt have to be in melee range to use it, quite the contrary to Lee. You also only added onto my argument. I stated that Lee has difficulty doing sustained damage, and you added that he builds tanky to abuse utility (like most fighters( think wukong)).

I must have missed the part where Elise and Nidalee are tanky, or where Nid has strong CC, or even where Gragas has strong sustained damage.<

I did say "(minus assassins)" which nidalee and Elise both fall under, regardless of how they are built. You can say the same about lee, if he has built tanky, then he doesn't do a lot of damage.

Gragas falls in the same boat as Rek'sai, in that they are too well rounded. He has quite a bit of sustained damage included in his burst as his skills are relatively low cooldown and easy to use, not to mention his E>flash, far more reliable than Lee Sin.

I would type more, but I have work.

Cheers.

chipndip1Sep 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I did say "(minus assassins)" which nidalee and Elise both fall under, regardless of how they are built. You can say the same about lee, if he has built tanky, then he doesn't do a lot of damage.

Correction: Elise is not an assassin.

TwinkieProSep 6, 20161 votes

Seems so, thanks for the correction. I Assumed she was based upon playstyle and percent health damages. In essence, she is closest to Lee, but still is more reliable late game.

chipndip1Sep 6, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Seems so, thanks for the correction. I Assumed she was based upon playstyle and percent health damages. In essence, she is closest to Lee, but still is more reliable late game.

No prob, man. o.o7

The DeckownerSep 4, 20165 votes

shaco does have very clear weaknesses in many aspect, for example his clear is very garbage, his mana cost is very high and he doesn't have any reliable cc.

Unstoppable MonkSep 4, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAhAVVlR,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2016-09-04T13:45:12.004+0000)

shaco does have very clear weaknesses in many aspect, for example his clear is very garbage, his mana cost is very high and he doesn't have any reliable cc.

The difference between someone that plays Shaco and someone that is a Shaco player: In the hands of the master his CC is fairly reliable.

ZT XperimentorSep 4, 20166 votes

This has been a design problem everywhere in league since season 3, not just the jungle.

RequiemsfireSep 4, 20166 votes

Gragas possesses qualities favourable as both a tank and a jungler to the point where you can blind pick gragas into any situation where another tank might be suitable because gragas is a jack of trades champion who dominates in his particular role.

MarshbouySep 4, 20165 votes

exactly. He has everything, everything a tank wants.

RequiemsfireSep 4, 20166 votes

Why is this downvoted? It's correct.

Gragas has the following, ranged AoE slow, % health damage, Mobility, damage mitigation, % self heal, a stun, on top of arguably one of the most powerful ults on the game which displace all enemies from the center of the targeted field disrupting channels and dividing team on compositions as well as all having not too bad decent AP scalings where his kit can effectively be used to 100-0 someone with a basic combo.

In other words, he is an effective bodyguard, strong initiator, disengager, sustains in a fight fairly well, can easily control any enemy he chooses and is overall really hard to stop.

Now I will admit other tanks are really strong at what they do, where Malphite is a strong initiator, Rammus is a fantastic disruptor etc but that doesn't change the fact that while these specialist picks can fulfill a certain role really well, Gragas can do all of it to a competent level making him one of the strongest tank picks in the game.

MarshbouySep 4, 20162 votes

Exactly. I'm assuming my comment was downvoted by some idiot who doesn't know much about balance, that's usually what happens.

Unstoppable MonkSep 4, 20165 votes

Like seriously, Vi was intended as a top laner but RITO = their champs in the opposite spot of their intended design.

The DeckownerSep 4, 20163 votes

well zed was designed to be a jungler, except nothing in his kit helps jungling luls.

StaliniumSep 4, 20161 votes

Whoa whoa whoa wait is this for real?

Any time I EVER see a "jungle Zed" he's at best about 4 levels behind the rest of his team

The DeckownerSep 4, 20162 votes

if you can find his orihinal champ reveal and spotlight page, he actually was meant to be a jungler.

lul not sure why tho

GayFluffyUnicornSep 5, 20161 votes

Well his passive execute helps alot at taking down creeps. Other than that, yeah.

MarshbouySep 4, 20164 votes

I think that is why RIOT is trying to add less well rounded champions with clear weaknesses, E.G. AurelionSol being so vulnerable to melees and Kled needs to have a lead to be able to do well.

The DeckownerSep 4, 20165 votes

Well most of the jack of all trade champions were season 5~6 releases, like azir kalista reksai gnar ekko kindred etc.

MarshbouySep 4, 20164 votes

i think rito learned and has started to work on that.

The DeckownerSep 4, 20164 votes

well i wish so, quite sivk of these certainlyT champions with 3 passive in the passive and a passive effect in every other ability.

CeexSettSep 4, 20161 votes

MasterYi has 4 passives as well, quite odd for a old champion.

The DeckownerSep 4, 20161 votes

well at least all of his passives does the same thing: make the autos hit harder and faster.

CeexSettSep 4, 20161 votes

Well, if you go through that perspective, Ekko's passives all make him do more damage with autos :P

The DeckownerSep 4, 20162 votes

and abilities, and cc, and speed boost*

Autrah FangSep 4, 20162 votes

{quoted}

needs to have a lead to be able to do well.

isn't that an example of "Feast or Famine" though? doesn't Riot hate that?

MarshbouySep 4, 20162 votes

i realized i was wrong there. His actual weakness is his passive form, although his snowbally nature is pretty big.

Sassmast3rSep 4, 20163 votes

I mean, I would argue that well-rounded champions cause every role to have issues. For example, in the support role, there are three types of supports.

Tanky, CC heavy supports: ,
Aggressive, poke oriented supports: ,
Passive, survival oriented supports: ,

Now, the issues arise when either midlaners become ideal supports ( Morgana , Karma ), or certain supports simply have more facets in their kit than others.

Why would I ever use Lulu when Karma has close to the same volume of CC, but abilities with higher ranges and more power packed into them? Karma will give me more bang for my buck, so why would I even bother using Lulu?

Why would I use Soraka when Janna has the abliity to make her ADC move fast enough to avoid taking damage in the first place, can shield them from additional damage and even utilize said shield aggressively, has decent peel if the ADC ever gets caught out, and can even heal an entire team instantaneously, much like Soraka?

As a result of the previous situations, the support meta completely stagnates and creates massive issues. Remember in Season 5 when Thresh was literally the only support ever used, even if he wasn't the best choice for his team? You see, he actually was the best choice, because his capabilities branch beyond that of the more aged and/or less cared for champions.

The challenge on Riot's end is ensuring that when new champions are created (or old champions are given a rework), they are interesting and different from others, while simultaneously not overshadowing all other champions from the same role.

You simply can't have your cake and eat it too. Either this game has tons of closely similar champions in each role, with nothing distinguishing them from one another except for their visuals, or this game has tons of different champions in each role, many with capabilities that overshadow their brethren, making the meta stagnate. Frankly, I think Riot made the right decision by choosing the ladder.

ValknutSep 4, 20165 votes

I don't think Morg is crowding out other supports. Karma is all around a great support, and I agree why playing any other shielding/mitigation support other then Morg would be tough.

Braum does the same thing to thresh an Leona. He does what they both do but a lot easier while being a lot tankier, and having a higher threat level.

Shyvana doesn't even have a niche to fill while Nid can out farm, out gank an Out dmg her.

The only role that allows simplistic champs is ADC, an they have always been the highest powered role, an they have priority in being protected.

chipndip1Sep 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

You simply can't have your cake and eat it too. Either this game has tons of closely similar champions in each role, with nothing distinguishing them from one another except for their visuals, or this game has tons of different champions in each role, many with capabilities that overshadow their brethren, making the meta stagnate. Frankly, I think Riot made the right decision by choosing the ladder.

Option 3: Make more polarized match-ups between champs/champ classes so there's a strategically viable reason to pick Lulu over Karma, or Soraka over Janna.

Sassmast3rSep 4, 20161 votes

I fear that wouldn't work out in the end, and we'd just flat out have supports that were superior to all others, despite the original intention being to make said support(s) legitimate picks over other champions.

chipndip1Sep 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I fear that wouldn't work out in the end, and we'd just flat out have supports that were superior to all others, despite the original intention being to make said support(s) legitimate picks over other champions.

Lemme draw a simple comparison.

Let's say we're playing Pokemon instead of LoL, right? Even if we have some ridiculously powerful Grass-type pokemon, any Grass-type is going to cower in fear of specific match-ups because they take double damage from attacks they're weak against, which certain types of pokemon are almost guaranteed to have.

Right now in this game, we have a lot of match-ups that are relatively even or just "soft counters" at the worst. If the match-ups are mostly even, the few champs that get the most mileage by the numbers as often as possible are going to inch out on top. This is basically what happened to Pokemon's scene when they introduced Mega Evolutions due to Mega Kangaskhan. They basically hit like they were critting ALL THE TIME, giving them a ton of extra power, and that mixed with their type coverage meant they could cover a ton of different match-ups while being a good pick for a ton of different needs between picking up kos and tanking hits. Thus, if mega evolutions are going to be replaced by "Z-moves" in the next game, the imbalance caused by mega evolutions would probably be why. Transitioning back to this game, yea, feeling helpless or close to it doesn't feel good in a more dynamic style of game, but if everyone's so generalized, the better generalized champ is going to be the top tier pick. You can push for diversity by having more polarized match-ups because your possible niches increase from just general functions to existing to either empower or punish specific champs/classes of champs.

RequiemsfireSep 4, 20161 votes

Currently in Solo queue, I'd say Sona is one of the strongest supports you can pick due to her all rounded nature of being able to build AP, hard CC, powerful healing, and movement speed buff.

Soraka is definitely up there with the buffs to Wind Speakers blessing and healing related items. I deem her as my most hated support due to her nature to render plays, trades and poke virtually irrelevant through her mere existent. That her concept and design as a whole is truly one of the most unhealthy things for this game for that very reason even if she isn't broken through sheer numbers.

Supports don't really 'crowd' each other except some supports are stronger than others in certain metas when items and masteries shift. Current meta supports favour disengaging and healing.

chipndip1Sep 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Currently in Solo queue, I'd say Sona is one of the strongest supports you can pick due to her all rounded nature of being able to build AP, hard CC, powerful healing, and movement speed buff.

Except Janna's once again the top pick support after Sona's (deserved) nerfs.

Supports don't really 'crowd' each other except some supports are stronger than others in certain metas when items and masteries shift. Current meta supports favour disengaging and healing.

Given that you started this off by mentioning Sona, I find that this right here is especially ill-informed. Sona was crowded out as a decent support pick for well over a year, and it took a shit ton of unrest for Riot to finally decide to do something about it. Shifting metas didn't make Sona a better support when, in actuality, Riot deliberately making changes to the champ did. In all honesty, the support meta stagnates just as much as the other lanes, but ranked's disorganization sort of "allows" some options to breathe and be played.

RequiemsfireSep 5, 20161 votes

Well Sona was always a strong pick as a support but at the moment she sits on the same bench as Janna, and Soraka as the overall strongest pick for dynamic queue in the support lane even after her nerfs well at least according to tier list for support.

chipndip1Sep 5, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Well Sona was always a strong pick as a support but at the moment she sits on the same bench as Janna, and Soraka as the overall strongest pick for dynamic queue in the support lane even after her nerfs well at least according to tier list for support.

Sona was a low elo stomper. By the time you got up to Plat/Diamond, she was significantly weaker than other comparable picks.

That isn't the case now, but that's what it was.

chipndip1Sep 4, 20163 votes

Nidalee isn't all-rounded. She's exceptionally strong in mobility and poking, given she's an assassin/artillery mage hybrid. So much so that when she gets a small advantage, the entire map becomes her jungle. It's not like you're gonna catch her, and if she misses her confirm, she just ducks out over a wall and she's safe. Nidalee doesn't shove hard or team fight well. She just snipes, pounces, and bounces.

Same thing with Kindred. They have no hard cc in their kit and they're as squishy as any other marksman + they have pretty crap range. When they aren't nerfed into a well, they usually bring a strong teamfight ult with good % health damage going off constantly. They don't bring "a bit of everything" more than they just do a few things exceptionally well...when they aren't nerfed into a crater.

Champs that do a bit of everything would be more like: LeeSin Gragas RekSai Sona Nami Taric

The DeckownerSep 4, 20164 votes

in terms of being a all rounded jungler, nid and kindred both have: -fast clear -sustain in the jg -1v1 dueling protential -spammable mobility -ganking protential -map control

most other junglers get one of two of these, they got all.

chipndip1Sep 4, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAhAVVlR,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2016-09-04T17:14:46.118+0000)

in terms of being a all rounded jungler, nid and kindred both have: -fast clear -sustain in the jg -1v1 dueling protential -spammable mobility -ganking protential -map control

most other junglers get one of two of these, they got all.

Then your definition of "jack of all trades" is jacked up. You're complaining that Nidalee's a strong champ, not that she does too much with her kit. She lacks cc, she lacks tank stats, and she lacks aoe...all of these things can add up to some pretty important factors in regards to how a team should approach a match. Kindred, with that said, has less than what Nidalee offers (Kindred doesn't have spammable cc without being within their W and has no sustain in the jg on W anymore).

To boot, "map control" is subjective based on champ strength. If a jungler is strong early, their map control is high. If they aren't, it isn't. Kindred's been nerfed to Australia by now, so their map control isn't all that hot unless they get a few kills. That's not really a thing a champ's kit is designed for unless they're specifically meant to scale into the late game like Sej does.

DengedenSep 4, 20161 votes

"Reasonable" as in "you'll never or rarely see them again in competitive" and champions like J4 and Panth are solo laners as well as junglers which adds complexity to the p/b phase.

Nid got nothing but number nerfs, just like your Group 1 champions, which made her "reasonable" as well.

All champions have a plethora of things going on in their kit, some more intricately than others.

The DeckownerSep 4, 20165 votes

Nid got nothing but number nerfs? No way lol. I don't even ply Nidalee and I know there had been quite a few of her mechanics completely removed. for example trap rooting monster and r switch form aa reset.