Are the reworked champs banned because they are op, or because people just ban because it was banned

IsIsGankedParis·Sep 19, 2015·19 votes·2,469 views

Last patch?

I can understand Darius still being banned a bit because people don't dodge his heal, but are Garen and Skarner still an issue?

It might be me but Skarner and Garen are a lot easier to deal with if you have a team that can kite them, they shouldn't really make it to the back line which seems to be the issue unlike Mordekaiser, Fiora, and Darius I hear.

Anybody want to fill me in on why they are still banned?

68 Comments

BeMyFriendPleaseSep 19, 201518 votes

item 3742 item 3009 item 3071 item 1306 Garen enjoy having to use CC on the tank while the rest of the team gets in.

Or ignore him and watch him loltruedamage your carries. Your choice in solo que

Ryot NomadSep 19, 20152 votes

I love the fact that he has two boots XD

WestonbirtSep 19, 20151 votes

Of course, otherwise he would have a naked foot.

BeMyFriendPleaseSep 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryot Nomad,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAYQgYTW,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2015-09-19T11:51:19.607+0000)

I love the fact that he has two boots XD

Boot enchant :(

The Yetii RiderSep 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryot Nomad,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAYQgYTW,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2015-09-19T11:51:19.607+0000)

I love the fact that he has two boots XD

Wouldn't it be weirder if he only had one? Dudes got two legs after all.

KONO RUBICK DASep 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

enjoy having to use CC on the tank while the rest of the team gets in.

Or ignore him and watch him loltruedamage your carries. Your choice in solo que

Garen can't true damage everyone it depends on the situation. does hell more damage with titanic hydra (and can do aoe damage) while Garen did 40% of your carry damage with Q+E, renekton already killed someone and renekton is far more mobile with better utility (1.5 sec stun-35% armor reduction) .

BeMyFriendPleaseSep 19, 201511 votes

{quoted}

Garen can't true damage everyone it depends on the situation. does hell more damage with titanic hydra (and can do aoe damage) while Garen did 40% of your carry damage with Q+E, renekton already killed someone and renekton is far more mobile with better utility (1.5 sec stun-35% armor reduction) .

Good thing i said the carries or you'd have a point.

Joe DreddSep 19, 201512 votes

item 3742 nice kiting. lets not forget this cancer ass item also doubles as an escape

ShadyWolfeSep 19, 201512 votes

Skarner is still good but he hasn't been a problem since the hotfix and some pros only see him as a mid tier jungler.

Garen is very easy to play and is decent but the true damage on his ult is dumb.

Darius has been tuned down but still great but no longer OP.

Fiora got her early game hit which is great for everyone(except Fiora). Still great.

Mordekaiser He is probably the weakest of the five after this patch but he still might be good but he might of been nerfed out of Worlds.

The patch tuned down the problem champions for the pros and even nerfed the Devourer enchantment for the average low elo player so I'm pretty happy about the patch nothing seems inherently broken as of now but with so many champions in this game who knows.

MisterLayzeeSep 19, 20158 votes

I can't say much for Skarner because I don't play him and I haven't seen him played since they hotfixed him. Garen on the other hand is basically an easier to play Irelia in that you can get completely destroyed in lane like I did in my last Garen game, then when team fighting starts you can still do tons of damage while being tanky.

In my last Garen game (which was earlier today) I went 1/6 in lane, and by the end of the game i went 11/12 and I am an unranked noob in this game.

XonraSep 19, 20153 votes

{quoted}

I can't say much for because I don't play him and I haven't seen him played since they hotfixed him. on the other hand is basically an easier to play in that you can get completely destroyed in lane like I did in my last Garen game, then when team fighting starts you can still do tons of damage while being tanky.

In my last Garen game (which was earlier today) I went 1/6 in lane, and by the end of the game i went 11/12 and I am an unranked noob in this game.

I had first pick a few days back and someone had asked me to pick Garen for them to trade, and then ended up just trolling me because they wanted me to play Garen. I haven't ever in my life played Garen in ranked, and haven't cared to play him more than twice outside of bot games because I just don't enjoy him.

I still ended up going 4/2/12 while basically learning how to play him IN GAME. It was not fun, I enjoyed nothing of the champ (not my style) and still ended up doing fine, minus my terrible CS, and despite my terrible CS.

Would I play him again? No. If I played him again would I still do well? Sadly I probably would, but I just don't enjoy him at all, and would rather just ban him.

StephenizgodSep 19, 20156 votes

Hmm Garen isn't really much of a problem if you know how to use CC (as in after he Q's so he cant remove your slow...) and kite. I use to play Garen alot but got sick of people telling me i had no skill when i went 20/2 and whatnot. Now i dont play him because of the never ending stream of "Garen is OP" complaints i get while playing him.

Skarner is more just an annoyance really... never played him so i can only go off of my games against him (which are few).

Mordekaiser, i've been playing a lot recently and i find that its not so much thats its easy to get to your back line its that no one tries to stop me from doing so. Like the CC used on our ADC could have been used on me then i wouldnt have triple killed your back line :I...

Comrade NapoleonSep 19, 20156 votes

I belive that skarner and Darius are quiet manageable in general.

Fiora needs to be shut down early and you cant rely on your top laner to that in solo Q, you could do perfectly in your lane and get that fed fiora instantly blow you up. Thats the main problem

Garen has a similar case as fiora but i think he is easier to manage late game.

Morde, well i didn't realize how OP was that shit till i laned against him, i Poked him HARD! i mean i hit him with maybe 5 (bounced of a minion) Qs with my MF plus the constant poke from my support Nami in the first 5 min and he was still healthy as fuck. he was a damn wall i couldn't get him out of lane, with double relic his sustain is ridiculous! Ganks were useless BTW because to a Morde-Leona a 2v3 is a free triple kill for morde.

Seriously having a Morde on the opposing team is just unfun and feels like you are in a disadvantage. even thou your team plays very well and you do everything right you still lose simply because his flash is off cooldown.

Im no Pro nor a high level player, i believe all champs have counters and a way to manage them (for example i have no problem with vayne, i learned how to deal with her and i rarely lose lane against her). but morde is just unfun. (haven't played against him post 5.18 yet, maybe the problem is fixed)

Ryot NomadSep 19, 20152 votes

It isn't. I HAD A MORDE DEAL 1.8K dmg with his ult.

Adrian UmbraSep 19, 20153 votes

...I'm just going to call bullshit on this real quick unless you got killed by your own ADC, which is a perfectly intentional and fair use of his ultimate. Its selling point, actually.

So Morde's ult deals 35% Max health base damage, with 4% max health damage per 100 AP. If you were a 4k health target, that means that it would deal 1400 damage to you without any AP. In order to deal 1800 damage to you, he'd need 250 AP, which is actually a fair bit more than he tends to build nowadays. BUT WAIT. A champion will have at least 30 MR, probably a lot more if they're a tank. If there's a Morde on the enemy team, you should have built at least a little MR, as that mitigates one of his biggest advantages. The odds of Morde's ult dealing 1.8k damage with his ult, which has been straight up nerfed since his rework? Zip.

MarthianSep 19, 20155 votes

because op.

IsIsGankedParisSep 19, 20154 votes

Can you explain a little more what makes them op to still be near perma banned for each champ you think needs bans?

fasegaSep 19, 20159 votes

The new juggernauts faceroll bad players hard. They are so easily countered by CC and kiting but most players don't kite or position properly. So champs like Darius and Garen get perma banned whenever they are viable. They are actually very weak if you know how to play against them which is simply don't facetank their damage and they become useless very fast.

IsIsGankedParisSep 19, 20151 votes

So do you think they don't deserve the ban rate they have? I've been watching streams and the pros say Darius isn't good in higher elo but is a monster in bronze and silver, like his release(except for the bug in the first patch)

XonraSep 19, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Varin Omega,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=rAYQgYTW,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-09-19T02:08:32.412+0000)

So do you think they don't deserve the ban rate they have? I've been watching streams and the pros say Darius isn't good in higher elo but is a monster in bronze and silver, like his release(except for the bug in the first patch)

See I've seen the opposite. Just this week (after the most recent patch) I've seen quite a few pro top laners (not all from NA or EU) saying how strong Darius is, and wouldn't be surprised to see him at Worlds.

legendkiller1135Sep 19, 20151 votes

Although the champ statistics on champion gg still has mord pretty high up in winrates for adc. Don't know if it still needs to be updated or just more time for statistics to be more complete. But yeah the juggernauts aren't quite as scary as they were in patch 5.16.

fasegaSep 19, 20152 votes

Juggernauts win rate will always be high if they are viable, however they aren't OP their win rate is a result of simple mechanics and unexperienced players.

PikmintsSep 19, 20153 votes

There's also a number of champs that have a much harder time against them than before. Riven for one is countered by both Darius and Garen now even more than before, Nasus can't farm from anywhere other than his turret unless he wants to lose half his health for 1 minion, and honestly a fair number of melee champs that have the inherent lack of kiting makes the high base values for the reworks near impossible to deal with.

fasegaSep 19, 20153 votes

"Riven for one is countered by both Darius and Garen now even more than before" Riven now hard counters both Darius and Garen after the rework, only bad Rivens lose to them. For Darius you just shield into him when he Q then all in him and you win every time. For Garen just use Shield to block his Q and dash out of E range then go back in and kill him. Both of them can do literally nothing against a good Riven.
"honestly a fair number of melee champs that have the inherent lack of kiting makes the high base values for the reworks near impossible to deal with." Most melee can just farm up for teamfights and be more useful. Or for example someone like Olaf just straight up beats them both and is a better team fighter.

Adrian UmbraSep 19, 20152 votes

I'm not going to argue the Darius one because I don't play either Riven or Darius often enough to say, but I WILL talk about the Garen one because I played a lot of Garen versus Riven matchups. Regardless of how good the Riven is, they need to respect Garen's silence, his tankiness, and his sustain, three things that have always given Garen an edge over her. She shields his Q, her E's down and she's still silenced. She uses her Q to dash away, what is she going to use to go back in and kill him? Is she going to skirmish hard against him? Then she loses the sustain war and gets beaten anyway. The reasons that Garen was considered a counter to Riven have not changed and to say otherwise because "those weren't good rivens" is foolish. Garen is still an extremely effective counter to Riven, as he should be.

fasegaSep 19, 20151 votes

She uses her E not Q to get away once she does that she is out of range for Garens E meaning he can't do damage to her. Also you are think pre rework when the silence was 2.5 not 1.5 seconds like it is now. Garen lost Base movement speed and from his Q. Garen is also weak in lane now not getting to the same power till about level 10 and Riven by that time has 40% CDR. Your not even a better teamfighter since Garen lost the Tenacity on his W. Worse of all is you can't split push because since riven is manaless like garen you can never push her out of lane.

Adrian UmbraSep 20, 20151 votes

...Garen's silence duration and MS duration (5% and 5 MS loss since the nerfs in 5.17, whooooo) remain the same at level 1 of his Q, meaning those changes end up being almost a complete nonissue until level 8. His judgement regains its number of ticks at level 4, meaning by level 7 or 10, his damage will not be the same, but surpass his old when hitting multiple targets. On single targets, it's going to be strictly better at just about all levels, especially when paired with his higher base AD. Claiming Riven is going to have 40% CDR by level 10 is especially bullshit, as I almost never see a Riven EVER reach 40% CDR, as they tend to prioritize AD and offense through items like Hydra and Youmuu's over building items like BC or the tank items that would give her a chance in hell at reaching 40% CDR by that point.

And all these changes are a bit of a moot point. Garen is still a tanky, sustained, champion with a silence, all of which counter Riven. If Riven uses her E to get away, either you simply trade cooldowns with her and don't pursue or you're in a good spot to use the time where she's silenced to use your still-existent MS boost to stay on her face and spin her health down. She starts Qing away, cancel and back off, she turns it, stay and fight her, turning on your W and continuing to deal steady damage to her and silencing her as the skirmish continues. As your W fades off, retreat or pursue depending on health bars, watch as your natural sustain pulls you up to much higher health than Riven when the fight ends. Repeat. Proceed to assist in teamfights by being an incredibly tanky, hard to peel bruiser who deals massive amounts of damage or continue to wreck Riven if she tries to split push.

If you're a halfway decent Garen, it won't matter how good the Riven is, you'll win this matchup. Juggernauts like Garen deal incredibly well with Riven due to being tanky damage dealers who cannot be bursted down, will almost always outsustain her, and who tend to shrug at her mobility due to all of her damage still needing to be point blank. Garen still has many aspects that counter Riven quite well and while Riven may appear on paper to counter Garen now, she'd only do so if the player was so stupid that they ignore Garen's many advantages over her.

fasegaSep 20, 20151 votes

His E is not the damage until level if you are only hitting riven (if you are hitting minions the damage is reduced) allowing riven to very easily choose when to fight as you are weaker in lane.
While its true you are tankier then riven in teamfights that doesn't matter as when they removed the tenacity off of garens W he is so easily kited is pathetic. Riven on the other hand has 4 built in dashes.
Again against bad riven garen and darius faceroll them hard. However against a good riven you lose 1v1 your only hope is jungle help or trying to make a play in a teamfight, which she is better at then you.

PS: The ticks are only part of what makes garen strong they nerfed the base damage so it takes longer to scale. Its based on the level of your E and the level of your champion.

CppLSep 19, 20154 votes

Dont know about skarner ,but garen is just to easy to play for how rewarding he is.

XonraSep 19, 20154 votes

Darius I think is still a bit overturned, so I personally ban him if I get first pick since I play top lane a decent amount. I won't say I feel he is OP, but then again I don't really say that about many champions.

Skarner I don't get the point of banning. I know Riot thought he was too strong, and so did others, but I never felt he was as ban Worth as Morde, Garen, Darius, or Fiora.

Garen Is a toss up for me. I still find him very annoying to deal with because for as tanky as he very easily gets, he still foes far too much damage, especially with his ult. I think he is in a decent spot, but still find him frustrating if you have a team, and especially a laner that can't deal with him to keep him from getting ahead in lane. I still ban him.

Mordekaiser is actually the one I would ban over Skarner, as I feel he is just annoying right now more than anything. He tends to either get fed because someone doesn't know how to lane against him bot, or he completely feeds because the person using him doesn't know how to play him bot. His kit is just a bit odd to have him bot and it causes issues I just don't care to have to play around from the bot lane, so just get rid of that guy.

Fiora isn't a problem for me in lane personally, but the problem with her isn't laning phase, it is how easily she can just get to wherever she needs to be in a team fight on whoever she needs to get to, and peeling her off is damn near impossible before she kills her target. Even if she gets to your adc, kills them off, and dies, she already did her job, and it is hard to stop her unless you do in fact stop her immediately. I would say ban worthy, but with only 3 bans, you have to decide, and that is where the problem is for me currently, If all of the above (except Skarner) aren't banned, they will almost 100% be picked right now, which is why they have such a high ban priority for so many people.

MatezoideSep 19, 20153 votes

The latter. Going by sheer statistics, Vayne, Lux, Ahri and others are much better bans than Garen.

XonraSep 19, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The latter. Going by sheer statistics, Vayne, Lux, Ahri and others are much better bans than Garen.

I think this is true and banning them is also not a bad idea. The problem lies in the amount of bans because there are quite a few ban worthy champions. Not that I feel some are "OP" but you have preferred bans, statistically obvious bans (like what you just named) and then you have the very strong picks like Darius, Garen, Morde, and Fiora. Only 6 picks for what I would say are about 8-9 easily ban worthy champs, and letting any of them through can cause issues.

DurzakaSep 19, 20153 votes

Im 99% sure they are banned simply because people keep banning them.

Darius is strong yes, a little OP. But he isnt fucking 90% ban worthy. That is pre-nerf Kassassin ban levels, and he isnt even CLOSE to that kind of power.

Neither is Fiora.

Jesus Died 4 YouSep 19, 20153 votes

[deleted]

XonraSep 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Skarner and Garen still have the two biggest winrates in the game and their pick rate would be through the roof if they weren't on perma-ban.

Note: Skarner is #1 at ALL elos, while Garen starts to fall off at Platinum. Above 55% at all elos is enough to justify nerfs without question.

I want to disagree, but looking at statistics, he isn't actually wrong. That isn't just this month, this is actually even after the most recent patches.

AtheosisXSep 19, 20152 votes

Both. Skarner is not even close to being overpowered anymore, and he's still being banned regularly.

KingopantsSep 19, 20152 votes

They are good picks but not op, Right now people don't seem to be banning Vayne although she is statistically a way better ban then Mord, Skarner, Darius, Garen etc.

The LovelessSep 19, 20152 votes

I like letting the juggernauts get past ban phase. Makes the game more full of fuckery.

ConturbatioSep 19, 20152 votes

I'm still not sure if Fiora is still ban-worzy or not. The base stats nerf was a good choice made by Riot, exactly what I thought was her problem. Before that, she would just Q-E-Crit and win the trade without even hitting a single vital, simply because her HP was too high. But I still believe they need to reduce it even more, maybe to Zed's HP (1939 at lvl 18). I mean, on release, she was honestly balanced, she had 570(+80) HP, meaning she gets 1930 HP at lvl 18. but then Riot hot fixed her with huge buffs. Shorter Q cd & reduced mana cost. And higher AD per lvl (from 2.5 to 3.3 per lvl). I say that they should revert her to how she was on release and only reduce her Q's mana cost & CD to the way it currently is, leaving her with 1930 HP & 102.5 AD at lvl 18 (instead of 1995 HP & 116.1 AD), and 21/19.5/18/16.5/15 cd on W. She would be 100% balance by then.

High5Sep 19, 20152 votes

Ekko was perma banned for a month on release. Most people would rather ban champs than learn to play against them.

Slamurai JackSep 19, 20152 votes

They're not OP anymore after the nerfs last patch but people have nothing better to ban so they just keep banning the juggernaughts.

ElegantDogeSep 19, 20152 votes

I don't have problem against any of them. And i play Ashe,Sivir...not Vayne when i have to adc. I play Vi as jungler,who is frankly scary just like them as a bruiser. I play Janna,Karma as support and kite them all day. I play Fiora,Jarvan,Wukong and i find myself to be as anoying if not more than these juggernauts because of the mobility

I could go on but..i think people really cry and complain too much instead of thinking about "how can i beat them" which should be common sense. I don't have problem with garen hitting his 1k ult ,Darius healing himself or Skarner stunning me and grabbing me.. They are immobiles bruisers,they have weakness...if they kick my ass,i just assume that i failed (or my team failed).

I agree that these reworked champ were more or less "too strong", but as usual,people tend to exagerate.

Voluug13Sep 19, 20151 votes

This. People are just salty they cant 1v1 at melee with LeeSin Riven Yasuo Zed Fizz . The juggernauts are made to destroy those. But those that play assassins cant seem to understand that not only they get to counterpick, they also get to be counterpicked. The assassin meta privilege is over, and its time assassins mains understand that they are no longer the favored children allowed to have everything.

Those champions have weaknesses, and at most item 3742 may need a small change to give the momentum passive some kiting counterplay.

FiveofswordsSep 19, 20152 votes

something you will learn about life is that 90% of any community is composed of total retards who are incapable of objective thought, and so they try to get by following what they think is the most common opinion, hoping to survive with safety in numbers.

Infiny MageSep 19, 20151 votes

Most of the time I ban them because I've yet to see many people in my elo (silver) actually be able to just lane against any of them without just getting face rolled. Now I don't think they are op, just low elo players being low elo and picking x (X being the worst possible champion) into y (y being said juggernauts)
Often times I just want to facepalm in pre lobby because I know what kind of match it'll be.

Sire HippingtonSep 19, 20151 votes

sadly, that doesn't really stop in higher elos, atleast by my experience. They might play better, but their picks are stupid as hell.

CheftoniFTWSep 19, 20151 votes

I think the bans on reworked champs or popular champs is really just because instead of figuring out ways to counter them, players tend to just ban them outright. :/

StoryDuckSep 19, 20151 votes

I wasn't banning Garen and Darius to begin with. Never had much trouble peeling them off or kiting them. Skarner and Mord on the other hand (shudders). The changes to mord has made his laning phase manageable though so no more banning him. Skarner is still super fast though and that stun still locks you up nicely. He's strong still.

KrfinSep 19, 20151 votes

i always ban Riven Garen Elise ... Way too strong rn, the true damage from garen's ult if you're a villan is really unnecessary especially if you are trying to carry your team