Vayne is the number one ADC and has been since 9.3 while tanks and juggers simaltaneously suck shit

Tychusfindlay918·Feb 28, 2019·75 votes·16,786 views

http://www.op.gg/champion/statistics

Yorick is the only one in the top 5 of top laners that's a juggernaut, and in 9.3 he wasn't even on the radar.

There is no poppy or malphite or maokai or chogath or even sion after his latest hits in the top meta.

Wasn't vayne supposed to be a niche hard counter to tanks option? She's fucking UBIQUOTUS. In what world is this okay? There's NOTHING for her on the PBE. Is she actually going to stay like this for patches to come? She's excelling in a meta that shouldn't be kind to her playstyle because of outrageous shit like rageblade and her R buff which should have NEVER gone out but somehow meddler's underlings fucking Okayed that.

100 Comments

Critmaster GarenFeb 28, 201960 votes

that buff to vayne was one of the most blatant skin promotions ive seen so far. she was already doing well at the time with above 50% winrate and decent pick rate, and they slapped this gigantic monstrosity on her because reasons.

JuiceBoxPFeb 28, 20198 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5izt4hZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-28T21:14:48.128+0000)

that buff to vayne was one of the most blatant skin promotions ive seen so far

Lol, i think i said that close to 20 times in my life

HammermancerMar 1, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Lol, i think i said that close to 20 times in my life

how many skins does she have? now add that to the number of lucian skins and boom you have riot marketting plans of the last four years

KarfussMar 1, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5izt4hZ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-02-28T21:14:48.128+0000)

that buff to vayne was one of the most blatant skin promotions ive seen so far. she was already doing well at the time with above 50% winrate and decent pick rate, and they slapped this gigantic monstrosity on her because reasons.

This.

That Q-R buff was NOT needed. At all. She was already a top tier ADC prior.

A late game scaling hypercarry that doesn't need to scale is absurd, but we shouldn't forget that Riot buffed her unnecessarily to where she is at. Rather uncoincidentally before her "Prestige" Skin patch.

agac4234Mar 1, 20192 votes

clearly u didnt see the buff to lucian then lmao. vayne was in a good spot before the buffs and she became OP after them. lucian was OP before the buffs and they still buffed him

Nea104Mar 2, 20192 votes

The "useless boards" pointed out it immediatly; like for the runes rework in pre-season 8. Still, this smart and competent company didn't listen, and messed up once again.

They have been proving what they are in Season 8, failing and failing. I don't know who can still have expectations now.

Hayaishi2Feb 28, 201918 votes

Vayne is a ball of stats, i've no idea why Riot allows this champion to even reach 49% win rate. She should stay in gutted tier like Azir.

Think about it. Everytime Vayne is good is not because she is outplaying (if Vayne could actually outplay she wouldn't sit in trash tier everytime she isn't meta). She is just 3 shotting everything, this champ literally only ever works when she can reach her bullshit state faster than every other champion.

Who hasn't seen a 1 and a half items Vayne kill everything in around 6 autos? Vayne needs a rework and to remain gutted while she waits for it.

hhaavviikkFeb 28, 20197 votes

{quoted}

Vayne is a ball of stats, i've no idea why Riot allows this champion to even reach 49% win rate. She should stay in gutted tier like Azir.

Think about it. Everytime Vayne is good is not because she is outplaying (if Vayne could actually outplay she wouldn't sit in trash tier everytime she isn't meta). She is just 3 shotting everything, this champ literally only ever works when she can reach her bullshit state faster than every other champion.

Who hasn't seen a 1 and a half items Vayne kill everything in around 6 autos? Vayne needs a rework and to remain gutted while she waits for it.

you just described ADC's, ADC's in general are stat check champions which can't be outplayed cuz right clicks

KàtárìnãFeb 28, 20196 votes

Rengar Nocturne Kayn Leblanc Kassadin Akali Irelia MasterYi Sylas Talon Zed

Hayaishi2Feb 28, 20194 votes

{quoted}

you just described ADC's, ADC's in general are stat check champions which can't be outplayed cuz right clicks

Varus Xayah Jhin Ezreal just to name a few of the one with actual counterplay.

OHminusMar 1, 20192 votes

Ashe Draven Kalista MissFortune i think too

The only ones that I ever really had a problem with are Vayne Tristana Twitch Jinx Kaisa aka the "hypercarry" adcs, at certain times they were just too strong after getting a few items

Hayaishi2Mar 1, 20193 votes

{quoted}

i think too

The only ones that I ever really had a problem with are aka the "hypercarry" adcs, at certain times they were just too strong after getting a few items

Yeah the problem is those champions only need to right click to be effective, usually press one button to trigger their steroids then proceed to mow down your team.

hhaavviikkMar 1, 20194 votes

{quoted}

??

just to name a few of the one with actual counterplay.

and then you realize those can still right click you to death with no counter play

Hayaishi2Mar 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

and then you realize those can still right click you to death with no counter play

Lmao how? Varus does 0 damage if he doesn't proc his W.

Xayah is completely relient on her E too.

Ez is pretty much a mage.

Jhin's value is in his abilities, tho he does hit like a truck with his autos.

Obviously every ADC can "right click you to dead" when you sit there and let them attack you uncontested, but those ADCs actually need to do stuff beyond "press my steroid and pump out crits" to be useful.

hhaavviikkMar 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Lmao how? Varus does 0 damage if he doesn't proc his W.

Xayah is completely relient on her E too.

Ez is pretty much a mage.

Jhin's value is in his abilities, tho he does hit like a truck with his autos.

Obviously every ADC can "right click you to dead" when you sit there and let them attack you uncontested, but those ADCs actually need to do stuff beyond "press my steroid and pump out crits" to be useful.

it requires allot of skill to miss a insta cast Q which procs his W, it's so difficult to miss it's almost impossible, add to the fact he gains AS when he gets a kill/assist and kills even faster by right clicking

xayah has a big AS steroid on her W, build her crit and she destroys squishies in a second with right clicking

a late game ADC has a ton of AD and or crit/lethality making even just simple AA's deal allot of damage even ezreal and especially jhin

GlaricionMar 1, 20196 votes

Am I going to see the "AAs should be remade into skillshots" argument finally?

In theory, taking so long to come online, having low burst, and being squishy should solve their DPS source's problem of being so reliable. But when they're given almost no turn rate, a number of repositioning tools, scaling spells, etc... their design becomes a bit more suspect.

I miss when AD and AP were much more WYSIWYG.

Moody PFeb 28, 201914 votes

do they need to be top 5 to be good?

I think Yorick, Nasus and Olaf are pretty solid right now. Can't say the same for the rest of the class but as much as I think Darius and Illaoi and Garen suck right now their numbers are decent enough that I cant complain on boards and get validated

Tychusfindlay918Feb 28, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5izt4hZ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-02-28T21:14:34.405+0000)

do they need to be top 5 to be good?

I think Yorick, Nasus and Olaf are pretty solid right now. Can't say the same for the rest of the class but as much as I think Darius and Illaoi and Garen suck right now their numbers are decent enough that I cant complain on boards and get validated

Yorick is fine, but nasus and olaf aren't good. Olaf is only good as a counterpick to some matchups.

Critmaster GarenFeb 28, 201919 votes

{quoted}

Yorick is fine, but nasus and olaf aren't good.

olaf is really strong because of conqueror right now.

but its pretty much just the keystone. he went up 8% winrate or something crazy like that when the new conq dropped?

hes very likely going down just as fast when the keystone gets nerfed next patch.

i mean either way, the fact that vayne got buffed in the first place was insane. there was simply no justification for it at the time, and there isnt one for leaving her in the state she is for weeks.

Moody PFeb 28, 20194 votes

Olaf has always been a counter pick champion as far as I can remember. I'm fine with that; I don't really like to one trick.

DuskDaUmbreonMar 1, 20191 votes

Hasn't Olaf has only ever been good as a counterpick, though?

That's kinda what happens when you have a relatively niche ult like his - it only tends to be good against CC-heavy teams.

I'd be rather worried if a champion designed to be good against CC wasn't mediocre at best against teams with low CC.

Yets4240Mar 1, 20196 votes

Like uh, Vayne being the hands down best ADC pick despite supposedly being both the highest skill ADC (mega-fuckingLOL like ranged statchecking from mostly passive and free damage and mobility amps with point and click double CCs is difficult) and vastly overtuned as a tank and juggernaut slaughterer despite none of those champs even being played, let alone good?

You mean worrying, game destroying shit like that?

PaffWasTakenMar 1, 201912 votes

Remember when Vayne mains claimed that 50% cdr on Q while ulting wasn't that much of a big deal?

MordepoolFeb 28, 20197 votes

You dont need a Tank buster champion. When everyone can do it.

TimeToDieSuckersMar 1, 20196 votes

People talking about botrk, but I'm looking at that guinsoo's, sure it needs a few stacks but when most of her damage is on the 3rd hit and it makes it every 2 hits instead it's literally a straight +50% true damage when stacked. Her ult buff is also way too much.

Seriously though who buys guinsoo's? Master Yi, Vayne and... occasionally a jax player who didn't want spear of shojin? Even new kayle doesn't use it anymore. Items like guinsoo's and spear of shojin are just gimmick items that ruin balance.

20022012Mar 1, 20191 votes

You forgot Kogmaw, Varus, Kaisa. Guinsoo is not a problem as much as how free all of the viable Guinsoo users have the early game. Vayne was constantly buffed to have a better early game and Yi was indirectly buffed from removing early pressure from jungle. Vayne honestly cannot be fixed without skill adjustments because no matter how you warp her numbers, she's still going to mainly auto attack. Perhaps it would help if it did True Damage to champs with more HP than her and physical to anyone else, but she's still inherrently going to have the same problems.

And for Yi, if the jungle meta was Shaco, Lee, Trundle, he'd have a much harder time. I remember that pre rework Shaco just utterly demolished Yi, you'd just cheese his Red buff for free and he could hardly recover from that. If you stole his other buff, the game would be pretty much over for him. Now the biggest hope we have is Reksai and she's getting gutted.

TimeToDieSuckersMar 1, 20192 votes

That is true, but a 50% increase on true damage is way too much of a damage boost for a vayne. The item is just like spear of shojin and allows champions to go super saiyan and surpass their kits "limits".

20022012Mar 1, 20191 votes

Yeah but if an item boosts a single ability by 100 True Damage that is kind of bad.

Imagine Ahri buying a Luden's Echo. the passive alone gets her like 50 damage against tanks, let alone, on her Q or W and other abilities.

You can look at virtually any scaling champion like that and every other champion will have a higher damage increase overall than Vayne with items.

Again, no ability or item is the problem. It's the gameplay pattern that frustrates people, but the truth is that because of this they can't see what Vayne CAN'T do. It's like when Annie was strong. Or Pantheon. Sure, they are consistent because they are simple, but they're short ranged and linear. If you change the gameplay aspect, people are going to rage that the game is raising the skill cap. It's a lose-lose situation.

So in the end, the problem is in the champions, you have to be careful how you approach it, or you're going to make things worse. Recently I've been trying to fix Tryndamere by reworking him. In the end, he turned out to be more of a caster than an auto attacker, but I still kept the crit pattern. The thing is, if you change Vayne to a caster, she's essentially going to be a ranged assassin. She's in an awkward spot where she needs autos to remain and ADC, but also needs actual abilities not to be frustrating to play with/against.

So all in all, a lot of problems without a clear solution.

TimeToDieSuckersMar 1, 20191 votes

Of course it has to do with a champions kit. But not all champions benefit from passives like "phantom hit" or "essence flare" the same way. These items literally just change their kit. Items shouldn't change a champions kit. If the passive says 3 hits it should be 3 hits. You shouldn't be balancing a 3 hit passive around how a specific item turns it into a 2 hit passive.

Same way you shouldn't balance Jax E based on essence flare, where he becomes so powerful he breaks through the CDR limit like a super saiyan. They all just make the champions harder to balance. Most actives don't literally change a part of your kit, and it should stay that way.

If you wanted the 3 hit passive to scale in to 2 hits that's fine, but you shouldn't do it through an item.

In terms of frustration, its Vayne's late game safety. She has so much damage and tank shredding that you can't play front to back against her. Your forced to dive in and try to kill her, but seemingly she is just too hard to kill. Sure, like most ADC's you "can" 1 shot her, but her invisibility + E + damage just makes her 1 of the best 1v1 ADC's in the game. She excels in both 1v1 and teamfights, if its hard to kill her 1 on 1, its even harder when she has 4 people guarding her with shields/heals/CC. Obviously nerfing her ult buff would make her a lot more fair, but realistically a great deal of champions will always be hated, vayne being one of them.

20022012Mar 1, 20191 votes

You're supposed to beat hypercarries early, that's the whole point of the hypercarry - sacrifice early game power in order to get way stronger late game. Unsure why people are complaining that they can't beat Vayne/Yi/Jax late game - you're not exactly supposed to.

TimeToDieSuckersMar 2, 20191 votes

People are complaining because "hypercarries" don't carry late game they carry mid game. Vayne becomes king at 2 items. 2 items isn't late game. Vayne is supposed to be "high skilled" she clearly isn't. High skilled late game champion made to shred tanks. Games don't really go that late right now, tanks aren't very common, pickrate is high, high pickrate on a "high" skill cap champion should result in negative winrates, but it doesn't..

It doesn't matter if your supposed to be a "hypercarry" this meta isn't suited for vayne and she is clearly OP and way too safe. Several other adc's spike at 3 items. Why does a "late game hypercarry" spike at 2? Guinsoo's is busted on vayne and breaks her kit is why.

20022012Mar 2, 20191 votes

Late game nowadays is two items. Games rarely last longer because whiever aces the enemy team and gets baron wins most of the time. If 6 items is late game for you I think you're 2 seasons behind buddy.

TimeToDieSuckersMar 2, 20191 votes

That's why people complain facepalm I think you've missed every point. Late game doesn't even exist. Yet she still wins? 2 items isn't late game buddy it's mid game. Kassadin spikes at level 16, vayne just gets 2 items. It's not the same. Jax is 1v1 king at 15 minutes, and only gets stronger. For "late game" champions that scale with gold and not exp, it's just too easy, there's so much free gold everywhere.

Alas, some people think that "hypercarries" should just hypercarry, not like if any champion could do their job reliably they'd all be OP or anything right? /s

20022012Mar 4, 20191 votes

The definition of mid and late game vary. Currently, there is no mid game - this is because once the outer turrets fall, you take the Baron and you win the game.

Late game champions aren't strong because a certain amount of time has passed or because they need a lot of items - in fact, there isn't a single good champion in the game that needs more tham 2 finished items, otherwise they would be bad, and this is not something that's new to the gaže, it has been like this since beta. Late game champions are strong because the gameplay changes. Vayne isn't weak early because she has no items - she has OK stats and fair skills. But those stats and skills are not very useful for fighting and trading, while they're very good for fighting.

Skakdi ThokFeb 28, 20195 votes

well vayne is a late game champion and we in a late game meta so it makes sence she is top tier

Wait a minute....

Yets4240Mar 1, 20196 votes

Early game AoE burst META with no juggernauts or tanks around? Clearly the META one would expect fucking Vayne to dominate with highest winrate AND pickrate on supposedly the hardest ADC in one of the worst METAs for her. Clearly Vayne isn't at all disgustingly, game warpingly overpowered. No, everything is perfectly fine. :)

ModCaptainMårvelousMar 1, 20195 votes

I think the most surprising thing is that Yorick has a positive winrate vs. Vayne.

Yorick, a slow, plodding, immobile champion whose only "containment" tool vs. Vayne is a wall that with enough attack speed she can shred through...and Yorick's winrate vs. her according to OP.gg is like 52.5%. Looking through some more winrate stuff:

Malphite, a tank, has a 52% winrate vs. Vayne (Granted, he is anti-armor but I figured Vayne's true damage would outshine him.)
Quinn completely dumpsters Vayne at someodd 60% win rate.
Most divers (Camille, Irelia, Wukong, etc) wreck her.
Mages give Vayne a really hard time.

I guess mainly it's that Vayne is a counterpick to these champs pretty hard (With 55%+ in some champ cases) yet gets just as hardcountered by certain toplane match-ups.

Sir SaltarinMar 1, 20193 votes

Malphite, a tank, has a 52% winrate vs. Vayne (Granted, he is anti-armor but I figured Vayne's true damage would outshine him.)

Yeah it's weird that on Lolalytics the only adc that shows as countered by Malphite is Vayne who is known by her tank-melting strenght.

I assume that it's because Vayne has a rough time teamfighting against Malphite R but that would be said for a lot of adcs that should have a similar or a even worse time teamfighting against Malphite R such as Ashe or KogMaw lets say, really weird.

The only thing I can say is that the other adcs have either aoe on their kits or runaan unlike Vayne, and her being forced to take down Malphite (because on majority of the fights the adc focuses the enemy frontline) as single target it's the reason why it happens, maybe it's that she needs to kill him but on all that time she's not doing anything else unlike a Jinx, Kog Maw or Twitch with aoes or other adcs that at least can do dmg with skills from more range since if you zone Vayne out of 550 range she can just watch the teamfight.

Just my guess.

NemeBroMar 1, 20196 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Saltarin,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5izt4hZ,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2019-03-01T02:25:22.765+0000)

Yeah it's weird that on Lolalytics the only adc that shows as countered by Malphite is Vayne who is known by her tank-melting strenght.

I assume that it's because Vayne has a rough time teamfighting against Malphite R but that would be said for a lot of adcs that should have a similar or a even worse time teamfighting against Malphite R such as Ashe or KogMaw lets say, really weird.

The only thing I can say is that the other adcs have either aoe on their kits or runaan unlike Vayne, and her being forced to take down Malphite (because on majority of the fights the adc focuses the enemy frontline) as single target it's the reason why it happens, maybe it's that she needs to kill him but on all that time she's not doing anything else unlike a Jinx, Kog Maw or Twitch with aoes or other adcs that at least can do dmg with skills from more range since if you zone Vayne out of 550 range she can just watch the teamfight.

Just my guess.

Vayne is, bar none, the ADC most reliant on attack speed.

Malphite has an easily-applied attack speed slow, as well as a shield (the only counter to percent health true damage).

3TWarriorMar 1, 20193 votes

is everyone forgetting that malphite gets played as an assassin lately?

Wacky9Mar 1, 20193 votes

Yorick has a positive winrate vs. Vayne? In top or in bot? Cause I could see a Yorick-adc botlane trashing a Vayne. But in top, I can't imagine how many toplane Vayne players would have trouble against Yorick.

Bob the ToastrMar 1, 20191 votes

Hmm, interesting that in your list of things that do well against vayne you didn't list a single adc. Hmmmmmmmmm

ModCaptainMårvelousMar 1, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bob the Toastr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5izt4hZ,comment-id=000a0002,timestamp=2019-03-01T03:05:18.042+0000)

Hmm, interesting that in your list of things that do well against vayne you didn't list a single adc. Hmmmmmmmmm

Well yeah, I was looking at Vayne top lane. Which was the context of this thread. (I also listed Quinn, who is technically an ADC).

In terms of bot lane, Vayne's worst match-ups right now are Miss Fortune, Jinx and Ashe. They're not quite as damning (Mostly being 48/49%) but decent picks against Vayne do exist.

Frontline FuryMar 1, 20193 votes

As a top laner i’ve noticed that i can be 7/0 with 3 and a half completed items and i’ll still only BARELY be able to survive a 1v1 against a Vayne with botrk berserkers IF i manage to burst her down fast enough.

If i miss a single spell (such as if she flashes one) i’m dead and she’ll pick up my shutdown bonus. One item and i die in 2-3 seconds.

But i guess that’s fine, Vayne was always intended as a mid-game assassin after all!

Celestial Lion12Feb 28, 20192 votes

lucian has been the no.1 pick then vayne then sivir

Tychusfindlay918Feb 28, 201918 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celestial Lion12,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r5izt4hZ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-02-28T21:11:29.428+0000)

lucian has been the no.1 pick then vayne then sivir

Vayne as the highest win rate AND the highest pick rate.

http://www.op.gg/champion/statistics

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