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Petition to have all Bonus Turret Damage Treated Equally

Illabethe··13 votes·8,734 views

Recently, a stealth change was implemented against League's newest Live Server's champ, Neeko .

Her W, applied some bonus damage every 3rd auto attack, to every target, including turrets.

However, from my personal experience (I was using an On hit Neeko build for experimentation), when it came to early game use of this ability after killing a laner, Neeko gained no more shield plates than any other laner would. Most occasions of getting to a turret only gained her 1 shield plate. If it was top lane, it was possible to get 2, if you had a sizeable minion wave.

In Contrast:

Jax kills a champion in lane, and can kill almost 3 plates, because of his passive attack speed activation. Ashe kills a champion, and still gets to use her rapid fire on turrets. Caitlyn kills a champion, and her 6th hit still does bonus damage to turrets. Diana kills a champion, and gets to apply her passive to turrets. Ezreal gets an enhanced W, which does a burst chunk to turrets. Galio kills a champion, and has a MASSIVE passive on hit damage buff which affects turrets, that is exactly like Neeko and Diana's on hit bonuses. Garen Q does bonus damage to turrets and has a pretty short cooldown. About the same time it takes Neeko to 3X auto attack. Kled has a similar function to Jax. 4 hit skill that enhances damage and takes much less time to auto. Malphite has enhanced auto damage to turrets. Nasus Siphoning Strike applies to turrets and can almost 1 shot them. Nunu Boosts ally turret takedowns when he damages a turret. Rammus does aoe damage to turrets in addition to autos. Sona Power Chord works. Taric 's Passive does bonus damage to turrets. TwistedFate E enhance damage to turrets. Vayne Recently buffed, can Enhance damage to a turret every time she Q's (up to .1 sec per cast) Yorick Q does extra turret damage. Zoe Her Sparkles still hurt turrets.

(This list doesn't even mention champs that have other mechanics to destroy turrets like Tristana, or Ziggs. Those kits are intentional. It also doesn't mention champs like Tryndamere who have mechanics who can make taking a turret quicker, champions like DrMundo who can steroid their own AD).

What I'm getting at is...... this is unequal treatment.

For one: Neeko building ADC or APC dramatically reduces the per hit damage from an AP build. There's a major tradeoff to using W as a turret killer. And if you went AP, her Autos were too slow to abuse it. Catch 22. Although I used it myself, I never saw my Turret damage in a single game go over 8900 damage. Compare that to champions who still have their kits, like Diana. Diana can end a game with 13-14k Turret damage. Jax/Graves can do 16k. Tryn can get over 20k. This feature of her W was hardly broken!

I've tried to use on hit Neeko since then: It literally takes her 20-24 seconds LATE GAME to take down a turret now, even when full built. In terms of turret takedowns, that's a JOKE. In the same time, Nasus could have taken TWO turrets. That's how long that is.

So I have a proposal Ladies and Gents (and Riot):

If you want to specifically nerf a 46% win champ in the one way she was remotely reliable:

Nerf the others as well.

This would put a dent into a lot of the complaints players field at you:

-Paper turrets (All turrets are still paper after you get past the first tier) -Short games (Turret passive skill abuse is a huge reason for shorter games. One lane gets carried away before the others can leave their lanes, and a base opens up. Beginning of the end of the game)

  • Some champions being uninteractive

P.S : I'm not against item 3057 procs mind you. If you want to keep those fine, But I want equal potential of SKILLS to abuse turrets.

I'm going to add a poll and try my best to stay out of the comments.

27 Comments

Sewer Side6 votes

The wordiness of this thread is a bit confusing. From what I’ve gathered, you’re saying Neeko lost her ability to proc W on towers this patch? (you haven’t explicity said so in your post, but that seems to be what you’re implying)

In any case, it should be per champion basis.

Champions like Mundo and Jax get “bonuses” against towers with their abilities because it affects their base stats. That’s how it’s coded. Jax’s W doesn’t do bonus damage against the tower though, whereas Nasus’ and Yorick’s Q does because Jax would become too strong of a splitpusher and teamfighter. Nasus and Yorick both have the anti-tower mechanic because their teamfight is less than good, so they need to be strong elsewhere.

With Caitlyn’s case, she has gained and lost and then again gained the ability to get Headshot stacks against turrets, depending if she’s too good in the meta or not. It seems like it can be used as a lever to buff a champion without it impacting how much damage it does to other champions.

Neeko (and AP champions in general) get decent damage conversion against turrets after reaching 150+ AP. Neeko is also strong in teamfights, so she (probably) shouldn’t get another nuke against turrets with her W. That being said, it’s an undocumented change, so it’s probably a bug.

Illabethe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sewer Side,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r55FdQk8,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-01-14T06:00:34.105+0000)

The wordiness of this thread is a bit confusing. From what I’ve gathered, you’re saying Neeko lost her ability to proc W on towers this patch? (you haven’t explicity said so in your post, but that seems to be what you’re implying)

In any case, it should be per champion basis.

Champions like Mundo and Jax get “bonuses” against towers with their abilities because it affects their base stats. That’s how it’s coded. Jax’s W doesn’t do bonus damage against the tower though, whereas Nasus’ and Yorick’s Q does because Jax would become too strong of a splitpusher and teamfighter. Nasus and Yorick both have the anti-tower mechanic because their teamfight is less than good, so they need to be strong elsewhere.

With Caitlyn’s case, she has gained and lost and then again gained the ability to get Headshot stacks against turrets, depending if she’s too good in the meta or not. It seems like it can be used as a lever to buff a champion without it impacting how much damage it does to other champions.

Neeko (and AP champions in general) get decent damage conversion against turrets after reaching 150+ AP. Neeko is also strong in teamfights, so she (probably) shouldn’t get another nuke against turrets with her W. That being said, it’s an undocumented change, so it’s probably a bug.

Neeko's burst in team only gets used 2-3 times a game successfully, because it's blazingly easy to dodge. On the other hand, Diana and Galio both have AMAZING hit rates, and either decomission a champ or kill them in 1-2 skills. You don't call that "Bursty?"

Neeko hitting an ult is a Miracle, because her kit doesn't currently agency it without a Flash. Even then it gives people time to get out of the way. Unless she's sitting in an unwarded bush, even if disguised, she is almost certain to miss/die/ or sometimes succeed only on Zhonya's..... at which point she's still Zhonya'd while her stun is active so the opponents wake up to action the same time SHE does, meaning they can still kill her without dying.

I know it's easy to say "Burst Burst Burst" But actually try hitting her ult without Flash in a High elo. You won't, unless the opposing team is already fighting someone else and is pre-cc'd, and you approached from behind.

P.S. Both Diana and Galio are also AP. Galio's Passive can do 980 to a turret when his auto attack procs it. Without a Lich Bane.

Terozu2 votes

Uhhh, Neeko does do bonus damage to turrets, what?

Illabethe3 votes

{quoted}

Uhhh, Neeko does do bonus damage to turrets, what?

She doesn't right now. Go try it in a practice game. Every hit will be the same damage, and her W will not rotate procs as long as you are attacking a turret.

Terozu1 votes

Well yeah, you have to proc it first on minions, like Ashe Q.

Terozu1 votes

Never mind that's not working either. I feel like this might just be a bug, since she uses the animation still.

deadlychuck1 votes

Yeah, it was happening to me erratically, so i'm guessing it's a bug. It's just not clear to me which is the ended behavior.

Saevum2 votes

Trundle Can still 'chomp' turrets and can build item 3078 making it double good for turret destruction.

deadlychuck2 votes

I actually think that I was playing when they were rolling the changes out to their different servers, because I was confused why it seemed like it was inconsistently applying her W bonus damage to turrets. Interesting.

LordGeovanni2 votes

You are crying that a general overbuffed all around mage isnt as good as split pushers at split pushing. If all On hit damage on towers were equal jax would be procing his R and W on towers taking it even faster. Jax's passive isnt an on hit effect its a self buff that stacks it self using on hit mechanics. You using cross lane and snow balling tower pushers to say that neeko isnt doing well taking towers when that isnt her job and she is in a shorter lane and thus people will reach back to defend it faster. Also that midlane is the golden lane and people dont allow it to lose towers early as it effects whether your team will actually push past river later in the game.

Illabethe2 votes

Who are you to decry what is and isn't a champion's job?

Diana and Galio's jobs aren't to take turrets, and neither are any of the other champions I mentioned, even Jax Their jobs primarily are to kill champions in duels, and have a team presence.

Turret takedowns are a secondary objective, and one some champs have to work for, while others don't.

P.S. Neeko isn't performing the best at Mid. She's performing best at Top/Support. And although selected less, her winning kits use item 3115 item 3124 , Not pure AP.

P.P.S. Mechanically linear "Overbuffed" Champions do not carry 46% win rates. I play Zyra, and openly defend arguments that she is "overbuffed." My Zyra play puts out 2-3 times the damage Neeko does. On ANY build. (I've recently stopped dicking around in Preseason Bronze; If you go look..... I've gained 4 consecutive ranks on Zyra in 2 weeks of only moderate play. Playing Zyra as Adc, Jungle, Support, Top. I win them ALL). Neeko's kit is like Zyra's: Oversimplified, Operates within its margins, but not outside of them, is extremely predictable, Except.... Neeko doesn't have a strong passive range that Zyra does, and takes about 20% more risk when skilling a champion. Her skills don't leave behind contingency plans or range extensions (I'm a pro at D III killing with Zyra at 1300 range. Her skills are only 975). Neeko is NOT a skill intensive champ, but at the same time has trouble anchoring and adjusting to opponents learning her kit. There's not much she can do once the community learns to dodge/minimize her E, detect and isolate her while she ults, and walks out of the very first pop of her Q. Once they learn to do all that.... she's pretty much stuck at that 46% until a significant buff comes along.

In contrast, I DO support Yasuo and Akali having a 46% Win rate, because they ARE skill curve intensive, and DO have huge deltas when mastered, that put their common players at 65-70% Win rates.

Rathar Dashing1 votes

If it's not Galio's job to take turrets, then why does he say "I've got the big guy!" or "At last, a worthy opponent!" when attacking them?

Rathar Dashing1 votes

Sona doesn't enhance her allies damage to towers. Her Q doesn't work on structures, only her power chord. Twisted Fate E passive can only stack up on turrets, but will never damage them, only his W can do that. Also, you didn't mention Bard, Ziggs, Lucian. And I'm not talking about Ziggs W, his passive works on turrets, too.

(also try attacking a turret when Neeko W passive is up. She does the animation for it over and over again without proccing it, pretty funny to watch).

Illabethe1 votes

Thanks for some clarifications:

  1. It's been awhile since I've played Sona vividly, so I'm a bit out of practice (haven't liked her since the end of Season 7)

  2. Again, don't actively play TF or Ziggs, so the additional information is always welcome. I'm sure there's still some both of us are missing too.

  3. Meeps damage turrets? If so....... That's gotta be more broken than Neeko W.

Sewer Side1 votes

{quoted}

Thanks for some clarifications:

  1. It's been awhile since I've played Sona vividly, so I'm a bit out of practice (haven't liked her since the end of Season 7)

  2. Again, don't actively play TF or Ziggs, so the additional information is always welcome. I'm sure there's still some both of us are missing too.

  3. Meeps damage turrets? If so....... That's gotta be more broken than Neeko W.

Bard’s Meeps don’t interact with turrets

Illabethe1 votes

So why did you mention Bard? The only damage enhancing part of his kit is his meeps.....

Nvm; you're attempting to respond for someone else.

Rathar Dashing1 votes

Retested the Bard one out, my bad. Saw Spellthief procs as meep hits when I first tested it. In terms of other on-hit affects on turrets, Kassadin can hit them with his W, Miss Fortune can use her passive on her turret hits, and my girl Vi's E can both reset her AA and deal bonus damage. There's also plenty of champs with just other types of AA resets, attack speed/damage boosts, and other tricks to take down turrets like using pets to keep turrets damageable.

WoΘxer1 votes

As far as I remember Caitlyn headshot doesn't work on turrets.

Sewer Side3 votes

{quoted}

As far as I remember Caitlyn headshot doesn't work on turrets.

It does since 7.19

PhantomSpirit1011 votes

It does, it has been since end of season 7 I believe.

LeftyRaydy1 votes

This was a change not mentioned on the patch notes. I believe this was an accident, because you cannot even gain stacks when attacking the turret. If it was intentional I believe they would have allowed you to get to 3 stacks and have an empowered auto vs minion or champion, but the fact that it stays at the current number and/or the animation is there there leads me to believe this is a bug, but this is a huge bug since turret plates offer gold and this really effects the champion so Riot needs to address if it is a bug or not as soon as possible.

Minimac20001 votes

Lol. I hope you aren't arguing that Malphite or Rammus can take towers faster than Neeko cuz you might be a little off on your math there..... unless it's full ap rammus, which is clearly OP

Illabethe1 votes

With the W? No. Neeko beats both on an attack speed build. However, she needs a minion wave the entire time to do it, where the other two can absorb a lot more hits and drag it out longer.

Without the W? Both absolutely beat Neeko at taking a turret right now. Even if you have 1.5 attack speed with 700 AP, Neeko right now takes 24 seconds to drop a turret.

P.S. Rammus' damage to a turret WITHOUT AP is up to 240 a second on his ult, plus his auto attacks. That's pretty competitive with Neeko that has an ACTIVE W.

I'm just arguing that all these champs have ways to kill Turrets much faster than normal. Either treat them all as voided and remove it so that everyone struggles to kill turrets. Or enable them all. There's no actual fairness in removing one, but not the others.

Minimac20001 votes

{quoted}

With the W? No. Neeko beats both on an attack speed build. However, she needs a minion wave the entire time to do it, where the other two can absorb a lot more hits and drag it out longer.

Without the W? Both absolutely beat Neeko at taking a turret right now. Even if you have 1.5 attack speed with 700 AP, Neeko right now takes 24 seconds to drop a turret.

P.S. Rammus' damage to a turret WITHOUT AP is up to 240 a second on his ult, plus his auto attacks. That's pretty competitive with Neeko that has an ACTIVE W.

I'm just arguing that all these champs have ways to kill Turrets much faster than normal. Either treat them all as voided and remove it so that everyone struggles to kill turrets. Or enable them all. There's no actual fairness in removing one, but not the others.

P.S. try building lich bane on neeko, you can take a tower a crap ton faster than 24 seconds if you are autoing at all and building nashors tooth on neeko literally just doesn't make any sense at all

Illabethe1 votes

Lich bane follows the same rules as any Sheen. I left Sheens out of this discussion for a reason: They are an OPTION, not part of the base kit, and generally are balanced between its forms.

Yes. Lich Bane can hit well. But Lich bane doesn't increase attack speed, which is the entire point of the discussion. I often take Lich Bane on Zyra and take turrets to, and do more damage to turrets than a Lich Bane Neeko without her W does.

Monstermushmush1 votes

I think they should just buff Neeko. much easier solution than nerfing a bunch of other champs.

Illabethe1 votes

I'm okay with either solution. But my sell is...... it's something they could do across the board to lengthen games, one of the complaints players never feel is solved and the attempt would be irrefuteable. (Turret shields are debateable)

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