I'm sorry but all the leavebusters in the world won't fix this bs. Until Riot stops punishing the rest of the team for leavers, I won't care how many of them get banned later. That and the outdated rank system with its unreasonable LP lost and earned and the HORRID promo games.
dangopee2 votesThat would actually be cool if the factored in your "grade" into how much LP/MMR you lose/gain but I'm pretty sure they don't.
Sightless661 votesThat would kind of suck. Just from my experience (and I'd bet most people would agree with me), it's way easier to get higher grades with certain champions or roles, regardless of how well I'm actually playing. It would be really annoying to get less LP on average than another player just because I play a different role than him, and I don't think there's any chance Riot could ever perfectly balance that out. Just getting LP for wins may be a slow way of measuring skill, but at least it's fair.
BakedLotion4 votesThat would kind of suck. Just from my experience (and I'd bet most people would agree with me), it's way easier to get higher grades with certain champions or roles, regardless of how well I'm actually playing. It would be really annoying to get less LP on average than another player just because I play a different role than him, and I don't think there's any chance Riot could ever perfectly balance that out. Just getting LP for wins may be a slow way of measuring skill, but at least it's fair.
doing good means you have more skill than what rank you're currently in. Getting an S+ is pretty hard if you're not stomping the enemy. If you're doing amazing enough to get S+ consistently, I'm pretty sure you deserve to go up in rank. But nah let that 0/15 feeder gain LP because u know, it doesn't matter how you do, just how hard you can get carried.
Sightless661 votesdoing good means you have more skill than what rank you're currently in.
Sure, but league's system doesn't fairly determine that. It can only guess at whether you're more skilled or not, and its guesses are biased as hell. You can't tell me with a straight face that every role has an equal chance of getting an S+.
You know what does measure skill? Winning. That's the only, 100% fair way of determining skill, because a more skill player WILL win more often than a less skilled one. An MMR system works fairly because it is ultimately only based around winning, and who you win against. There's no judgments, no bias, no unfairness. You only get rewarded for being able to win games.
If you're doing amazing enough to get S+ consistently, I'm pretty sure you deserve to go up in rank.
Do you deserve to go up in rank faster than the top-lane tank player who is just as good as you but plays a role that gets worse rankings? You get S ranks but he gets S- or A+ even though he's just as good as you, and you rise faster just because you play a different role than him.. That's not fair, but that's exactly the problem that system would have. Because that's the problem this system has. It's not fair to all champions and/or roles. It determines skill in a way that fundamentally favors certain champions or roles over others, which makes it an unbalanced system.
If you ever find a system that accurately measures "skill" in a neutral and objective way that doesn't favor any champion, I'll be 100% behind tying LP gains to it. Until then, this idea sucks.
But nah let that 0/15 feeder gain LP because u know, it doesn't matter how you do, just how hard you can get carried.
If he's that bad, he'll lose games and fall. That's all there is too it. At least he won't be losing less LP than he deserves to lose just because he plays the role that gets the highest ranks.
Clown Apocalypse1 votesDo you deserve to go up in rank faster than the top-lane tank player who is just as good as you but plays a role that gets worse rankings? You get S ranks but he gets S- or A+ even though he's just as good as you, and you rise faster just because you play a different role than him.. That's not fair, but that's exactly the problem that system would have. Because that's the problem this system has. It's not fair to all champions and/or roles. It determines skill in a way that fundamentally favors certain champions or roles over others, which makes it an unbalanced system.
If you end up in a lane where you have little to no impact on the game, youre just barely getting by, or it's just you and another guy top lane farming and dueling all game, then no you shouldn't rank faster than the other people on your team who actually won the game. You shouldn't get an S+ for just doing okay and keeping your guy top so the game could be won 4 vs 4. If you get an S it should be clear you were moving around the map getting objectives and making plays. If your only focus was a quarter of the map, and you didn't even stomp, no S for you this game. I don't see what the problem is with that. I'd be fine with not getting the max points for the games I suck ass and get carried in if it meant that on the flip side I lost less points when I still played a great game and couldn't carry my team. Whats the point of bein a top lane tanker if you aren't getting assists and tanking for your team? Tanks and supports are super easy to get an S with. All you do is ward and rack up assists and try not to die a lot.
Sightless661 votesI'd be fine with not getting the max points for the games I suck ass
So would I, but the champion ranking does not measure this accurately. It has tons of room for error. Two players playing equally well could get different rankings just because of the roles they play. That's not acceptable. An LP system needs to be fair, and this isn't.
Two guys can play equally well and contribute equally to a victory, and can be assigned very different ranks just because they played different roles. They'd get different amounts of LP despite playing at equal levels. Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck that.
If you get an S it should be clear you were moving around the map getting objectives and making plays.
Yeah, except I could be doing that and get an S, while another guy could be doing it just as well as me and get an A+ because he's playing a champion that does less average damage and dies more often due to being a frontliner and peeler instead of a damage-dealer. That's bullshit, and he doesn't deserve less LP than me for an equally skilled game.
f you end up in a lane where you have little to no impact on the game, youre just barely getting by, or it's just you and another guy top lane farming and dueling all game, then no you shouldn't rank faster than the other people on your team who actually won the game.
If he's bad, he'll lose LP over time because he'll lose games. That's better than him getting more LP than he deserves just because he plays the right role.
Like I said before, if you find a system that actually measures skill fairly, reliably, and without bias, I'll be all for tying LP to it. The champion mastery system doesn't, so fuck that noise.
DREADN0UGHT1 votesI feel some hate going on for top over here.
Clown Apocalypse2 votesHate for top? Naaa I play top a lot. I also know I have games where I pretty much have no effect on the game other than keeping my opponent in lane while my team wrecks shit. I also play games where the top laner refuses to leave lane regardless of how bad the game is going elsewhere. You shouldn't get an S for going 2/2/2 in a game where your team had 40 kills and was taking towers and dragons without you. That's part of the reason people are so salty about teleport because smart top laners use it to make plays around the map. well not even just top laners nowadays but still.... he was saying its hard to get an S as a top laner. I was just saying that unless you are pretty useless that game, you can get an S just like anyone else by playing well.
DREADN0UGHT1 votesGotcha
BakedLotion2 votesSure, but league's system doesn't fairly determine that. It can only guess at whether you're more skilled or not, and its guesses are biased as hell. You can't tell me with a straight face that every role has an equal chance of getting an S+.
You know what does measure skill? Winning. That's the only, 100% fair way of determining skill, because a more skill player WILL win more often than a less skilled one. An MMR system works fairly because it is ultimately only based around winning, and who you win against. There's no judgments, no bias, no unfairness. You only get rewarded for being able to win games.
Do you deserve to go up in rank faster than the top-lane tank player who is just as good as you but plays a role that gets worse rankings? You get S ranks but he gets S- or A+ even though he's just as good as you, and you rise faster just because you play a different role than him.. That's not fair, but that's exactly the problem that system would have. Because that's the problem this system has. It's not fair to all champions and/or roles. It determines skill in a way that fundamentally favors certain champions or roles over others, which makes it an unbalanced system.
If you ever find a system that accurately measures "skill" in a neutral and objective way that doesn't favor any champion, I'll be 100% behind tying LP gains to it. Until then, this idea sucks.
If he's that bad, he'll lose games and fall. That's all there is too it. At least he won't be losing less LP than he deserves to lose just because he plays the role that gets the highest ranks.
If the champion has a primary role of a support, they base it off of assists. I've literally went 0/5/19 on leona and got a S+ before. I also went full tank malphite top too. Got a S+ with only two kills. It's based on the role. If you're a bad support, you dont get assists. If you're a bad AD carry, you don't get kills. Way better than a troll losing a game for you. Atleast u can prove u can do well. We're not asking for a 100% KDA based system. Atleast factor it in...
And yes, I have seen people that consistently feed and stay in their rank for months. Luck is a huge factor in this game with the team mates
Sightless661 votesIf the champion has a primary role of a support, they base it off of assists. I've literally went 0/5/19 on leona and got a S+ before.
Yeah, I know. I play supports. They're too easy to get s+ rankings on. They get it more often than some other roles even if I play like shit.
It's based on the role.
Even with that, there are differences. It's still easier with some roles than with others to get higher rankings, which would be more LP to some players than to others regardless of skill.
We're not asking for a 100% KDA based system. Atleast factor it in...
Any way of factoring it in gives favor to the champions that the system gives higher rankings to. Until we can do it in an unbiased way,
Trust me, I'd love for skill to be factored into my LP gains, but in order to do that we need an unbiased measure of skill, and we don't have any system that does that. When we do, I'll be completely on board with this.
Clown Apocalypse1 votesBut nah let that 0/15 feeder gain LP because u know, it doesn't matter how you do, just how hard you can get carried.
Mannnn. My biggest gripe for a few seasons now. Even if you do go ham and carry an intentional feeder....they still get a win. Even if they aren't intentional. I've played with people that were so bad I checked their history to see if they were trolling. And they were really that bad. Once or twice they were even ranked higher than me....lol. LP losses and gains should totally be on a sliding scale, that way if you go on a losing streak of games that you actually did well in....you don't fall as fast. And people who managed to get carried back to back to back to back don't get to climb as fast so they wont end up in even tougher games that they do even worse in.
Clown Apocalypse1 votesWhich role is supposedly hard to get an S on? If you contribute to roughly 60% of your teams kills get some objectives and have a decent k/d and ward, you're almost guaranteed to get an S. If you are nasus and just sit top lane farming stacks for 45 minutes I can see how this might be a problem, but I've gotten an S playing every role including ADC which I suck at.
There's nothing fair about about losing a game you never had a fair chance of winning AND losing full LP for it. Sure people win 4 vs 5's. I won 1000 bucks on a scratch off ticket once. Doesn't mean I buy one everytime I go in the gas station. Nor do I have any expectation of being able to repeat that luck. You get absolutely nothing for sitting through a pretty miserable game except the joy of not being banned. Screw your promos though. Screw your climb as well. There is a way to balance it out......make the game not count for anyone but the winners. Punish the person who left, give the winners their undeserved win, and negate the game for the team with the afk. People are going to say but blah blah blah people can duo with friends and one can quit to avoid the loss for their friends. Guess what....they wont be doing it too many times, and if they do it's because the leaverbuster system is a joke and didn't punish them. Getting your account banned is a pretty good deterrent against "taking one for the team". And as far as people getting bullied into going afk......why should they when the chat will have all the evidence they need to get the people trying to beat the system banned? Honestly it shouldn't have taken 5 seasons and counting to do something about this problem.
** Or they could just give the team with an afk a considerable buff that they only lose if the person reconnects. Since 20% of our team is missing, everyone gets 20% increased stats. That might be OP though. Never know. Was just a random thought as I was about to post.
Sightless661 votesWhich role is supposedly hard to get an S on?
That's not the right question. The right question is "which class gets S ranks less often than other classes". Classes that do less average damage and/or die more often on average get lower ranks. It's not that hard to get an S with them, but it's easier to do with other classes. It's easier with one class, so one class gets higher LP gains even for equally skilled play. It stops being fair right.
I've gotten an S playing every role including ADC which I suck at.
So have I. Doesn't mean anything for this conversation though.
Punish the person who left, give the winners their undeserved win, and negate the game for the team with the afk.
I can't attest to giving even the smallest fuck about this, but tf you really want that, then fine. We can throw that in, but leave out the system where you get LP based on that stupid end-of-game ranking. They're completely seperate things and have nothing to do with each other.
Clown Apocalypse1 votesSooooo...where are these stats that say top lane gets an S rank less than other roles? I've never seen any. Not saying they don't exist, but if you're pulling that out of your ass that's not a very good argument. Going 0 and 15 shouldn't get you the same LP as going 15 and 0.
Sightless661 votesThere's a difference. There is no way in hell there isn't given how it has to assign relative value to each stat. It can't possibly perfectly assess It may only be my experience and the experience of others that says that tanky champions get the lower rankings, but it's just a simple fact that there are differences in the ratings, and those differences favor some champions over others.
Going 0 and 15 shouldn't get you the same LP as going 15 and 0.
That's better than two guys going 15/0 and the one who did better getting less LP because the computer didn't like his champion or playstyle as much. If a guy goes 0/15 a lot, he loses games and loses lp, so it balances itself out. Nothing balances out a guy getting less LP for being the wrong champion.
Clown Apocalypse1 votesThere are lots of people who die a lot and still win. I know because I get paired with them almost every game. There are also people who rarely die much and cant climb. I'm bronze 5 and have KDA of over 3 with like all my top 10 champs, some with a KDA almost as high as 5. I played 1100 games this season and averaged 4.5 deaths a game. The people I get paired with.......KDA of like 1.xx with all of their top champs, averaging 8,9,10 deaths a game. What you propose isn't balancing the system at all. It's doing nothing. Literally. Furthermore any champion you aren't that good with is the "wrong champion". So if you end up in a bad matchup or just perform mediocre, that's nobodies fault but your own if you don't get the S. You aren't being denied the win. You just aren't getting bonus points for doing amazing.
Also I'd like to add I don't think I've ever gone anything similar to 15 and 0 and DIDN'T get an S, regardless of which lane I was in.
Sightless661 votesThere are lots of people who die a lot and still win. I know because I get paired with them almost every game. There are also people who rarely die much and cant climb.
Then they're doing other things right or wrong in most of their games.
It's doing nothing. Literally.
Exactly. It's not introducing new problems. It's not punishing people for being good at champions that the ranking system doesn't like.
Furthermore any champion you aren't that good with is the "wrong champion".
No, you misunderstand. Skill is not what I'm complaining about. A person could be equally skilled with two different champions, but could get different rankings just because the ranking system values the numbers of one champion higher, even if that champion contributed less to the game.
Think about it like this. Champion A does 1,000 damage but contributes no CC. Champion B does 200 damage but contributes 20 seconds of CC. Which one did better? You have to make a judgment, and the system has to adjust these rankings based on each champion. It can't do this perfectly, so some champions end up being favored. People who play those champions could get more LP even if they did less.
So if you end up in a bad matchup or just perform mediocre, that's nobodies fault but your own if you don't get the S.
Again, that's not the point. The point, is you could get a different ranking even if you did the same amount. I'm not saying skill is unrelated to the rank you get, but there are other factors involved, and that's why we can't let it influence lp gain..
Also I'd like to add I don't think I've ever gone anything similar to 15 and 0 and DIDN'T get an S, regardless of which lane I was in.
Dude, the exact score was irrelevant there. Say it's 6/7 then. Or 9/2. Or a B rank. Or a C rank. The point is that it could be different for a reason other than "I played better or worse".
Clown Apocalypse1 votesyes but the difference between that S and that A shouldn't cost you more than a single point and should be negligible. As a matter of fact an A should be considered full points for the win and an S a bonus point. So maybe you get 21 for the S as opposed to a standard 20. Honestly its not the winning side I care about, its the losing side. My only gripe with the winning side is if someone did exceptionally poor they shouldn't get the full 20 points for the win, and definitely not the bonus point an S gets. Maybe they just get 18. I mean if you did so bad you pretty much got a free win courtesy of your team you really shouldn't feel so bad about 18 instead of 20.
I'm more concerned about the guy on the losing team who managed to go 12/5 and get a few objectives, and generally make the game even a challenge and was just completely held back by matchmaking. The guy that you on the winning team feel bad for on the losing team because he's the only one putting up a respectable fight. Maybe he should lose a point or two less. Over time doing well even in his losses might make up for some of the bad teams. LP is so random now its not like people know what they should be getting each game anyways. Either way your rank needs to reflect more of your own performance and less of the results of matchmaking. Then things like games with trolls and people just having very bad games don't affect other peoples rankings quite as much. This means a lot more in bronze where like I dunno a good 30-40% of people are. The people you can get paired with vary wildly in terms of knowledge and ability as well as general capacity to give a fuck.
Sightless661 votesyes but the difference between that S and that A shouldn't cost you more than a single point and should be negligible.
I know people getting 7-12 lp for a win or loss. That's pretty common in plat+ if you have a high enough number of games, particularly if you haven't been rising or falling lately. That's a 8-15% difference per game. That's quite a bit to potentially lose just because you're playing the wrong champion. Heck, I don't even have to have the wrong champion. I can just use the wrong playstyle (say, I play an initiator and we win the fights I initiate but I have to die in the process, and there's no way we could win if I didn't initiate well, then I'll get a lower ranking than someone who plays a safer champion even if they contribute less). Tht difference in LP gains is more than should be accepted.
I mean if you did so bad you pretty much got a free win courtesy of your team you really shouldn't feel so bad about 18 instead of 20.
I wouldn't mind if I trusted the post-game ranking system to be accurate. I don't trust it. I have absolutely 0 faith that the only reason it deprived someone of those 2 points is because they actually played worse.
Either way your rank needs to reflect more of your own performance and less of the results of matchmaking.
I get this complaint. Really, I understand where you're coming from, but it just isn't feasible. The ranking system is just so biased, so unreliable, so ungodly bad, that we can't determine anything but the most blunt assessment of someone's performance from it. I don't trust that an A ranked player contributed more to a game than a B ranked player, and that just breaks the entire idea of assigning lp based on it. It's only good for a laugh post-game. Anything else is using it for more than the system was designed to do.
So long as you play enough games, the ranking system is already accurate. Anything good you do makes you more likely to win, and if you keep doing it you'll win more often than you lose. I agree that it would be really nice if it could do this quicker, but we're not going to do it by introducing a fundamentally broken system.
Then things like games with trolls and people just having very bad games don't affect other peoples rankings quite as much.
These are annoying, but they don't actually keep people's lp down over the long term. Statistically, these are more likely to affect enemy players than they are to affect you (assuming you never troll), because any troll has a 5/9 chance to be assigned to the enemy team. Trolls actually inflate LP gains. They can make it take longer to get to your proper LP rating, but they can't keep you from it.
And again, I do sympathize with you here. I get that it's annoying to lose LP because of a game with an afk or a troll, but introducing this kind of system won't fix that problem, and it will introduce new problems. At the very least, the current system doesn't change your LP gains based on who or what you play. We don't need to make it reward or punish you for your champion choices.
I like the concept of having LP actually be increased by skill, but we need a good way to measure skill, and we just don't have that. We'd have to make a system to do that first.
Clown Apocalypse1 votesStatistically and reality are two different things. Statistically I shouldn't get a rage quitter 2 games in a row. Or an AFK 4 out of 10 games in my provisional ranked games. Or 8 afks in one 20 match history. All of these things happened to me. Statistics don't always translate to how everything plays out. Out of my 550 or so losses I'm pretty sure I've had 100 afks. That's nothing to scoff at. 100 games is a few divisions. So while it may seem like the more games you play the better chance you have, 100 games lost to afks is more games than some people even play in an entire season. And that's not even getting into the troll count.
I agree on them needing a new system to measure skill, or maybe just tweaking some of the ones they have. Dominion already gives you a score and you get points for all kinds of things. Plus they have the grading system. They should just combine the two and maybe even have a running tab that you see all game that lets you know where everyone stands.
Rysophage2 votesthis game's ranked system is a fucking joke don't worry about it dude just play some norms, have fun and wait until next season actually starts.
Palmeiras SerieB1 votesRiot does not give a fuck, they only wants the money that comes from sponsors and skins that you buy
CavemanSelfie1 votesI was silver 5 and I wanted to reach gold so I spanned ranked. In two days I had made it silver 3, but I had to give up because all of a sudden I was winning 17-19 lp and losing 24-26. It got fixed after the season ended, but still 1 loss be equal to 2 wins in terms of LP and i had to give up on making gold.
Señor Karthus1 votesTHat's due to the MMR system. If you have a bad balance of victories and defeats for what your current rank is supposed to be, it flags you and considers that you are in a higher rank than you "deserve" giving you less LP per win and more loss per defeat until you recover at least a 50% balance of victories and defeats. I've been in that situation for as long as I've been in Silver. Luckily I made it to Gold V, but it is a really stupid system.