@Riot Message to Riot regarding crit

YOU BEEN WARNED··89 votes·4,633 views

In case crit rework is approved for the sake of ranged champion DPS, please persevere crit for melee champions.

Reason being Tryndamere Gangplank & Yasuo are heavily reliant on critting for their playstyles, as well as one of the most awesome AD items in the game is item 3142. It should be acceptable for an ADC to decide to opt for a ghostblade, but it shouldn't be better than the %damage amps provided by the reworks.

Keep item 3104 for melee carries and rework item 3031 to be ADC sustained damage amp.

Thank you for your time and your consideration. :)

93 Comments

2pudge1cup34 votes

In general I don't really get riot's anti-RNG insistence. If there was no RNG at all then in a fight the winner/loser would be determined by who was already ahead which makes the game dull if you're already behind.

That being said, it seems silly to have crit be the only RNG in the game. If dodge wasn't good enough because a player can get pissed when their opponent is 1 hit from death and gets a "lucky" dodge, then crit shouldn't be good enough since a player could be 2 hits from death and their opponent gets a "lucky" crit on them.

Knight SoIaire 7 votes

In general I don't really get riot's anti-RNG insistence. If there was no RNG at all then in a fight the winner/loser would be determined by who was already ahead which makes the game dull if you're already behind.

strategy and tactics son ... strategy and tactics

and mistakes of course

Auryiel15 votes

The winner of a fight should not be determined by who gets lucky, it should be determined by who fights better.

Anidan1 votes

I believe dodge was removed while Crit wasn't because dodge completely invalidated the time the enemy spent attacking, while crits don't invalidate defenses or enemy attacks. I think that's part of the general reason; that and dodges feel crummy to go up against, and crits can as well, but crits can be countered without a single special item while dodge couldn't (Sword of the Divine was the ONLY dodge counter, if I remember correctly, while ALL armor and attack speed/damage reductions help to counter crit). The problem with having ONLY that one item prevent all dodges, even though it's the same in DotA, is that far fewer champions here could make use of the item (raw attack speed with pretty much no other stat, whereas MKB in DotA has raw damage, a bit of attack speed, and a mini-stun on-hit with more damage and a 35% proc rate, making it fairly reliable), and so it was inefficient to get it since it was only valuable against ONE champion, another difference with DotA, wherein there's a couple champions with dodge straight-up built into their kits, as well as accuracy reductions functioning similarly that MKB also countered.

In short: Dodge was removed because there was much less counterplay, and it completely invalidated your actions that led up to the dodge, while crit has numerous counters and invalidates nothing.

kile1473 votes

There is RNG, and riot is not against it. There is a post somewhere on these boards of a riot member saying RNG is actually a very important feature, but that they personally didn't like crit. That rioter meantioned RNG like Bard's Bard chimes and their spawns being a cool, reactive form of RNG. Non-interactive RNG is what they don't like. Crit's are very non-interactive because they can't be avoided but they can still change the course of the fight. Good RNG is something that you can't control, but you can react to and make decisions about.

Imagine instead of being on a set stage the dragon spawned in semi random areas on the map. I think that could be a cool idea for a featured game mode because instead of having a team objective being something that you planned and setup for awhile in advance, you would have to get your team together and react to its location. This would be a source of RNG to the game, but would not make or break fights, and instead would force them in interesting ways.

Cumătru Yi2 votes

beat the shit out of the enemy team teamfight comes thanks to rng their adc crits and mine doesnt lose tf despite being better than them thx based rng

Keevalroy28 votes

Reason being Tryndamere Gangplank & Yasuo are heavily reliant on critting for their playstyles

And this shouldn't be the case. If a kit's success revolves completely around RNG, it's not a good design.

PlsTouchMeGently28 votes

Agreed completely. I love Yas' play style and don't want it changed; I have fun playing it and playing against it.

ZPIN2WIN23 votes

I don't see a problem with that, if melee carries turn out strong after crit rework they can make it so that item 3031 & item 3104 unique passives don't stack.

Sir ArmaMalum20 votes

hmmm, 30 upvotes in less than 10 minutes......

If I wasn't slower than I usually am I would say it started at 30 votes. In fact, some would in fact call that doctoring support and is a very easy way to discredit anything said here, opinion or otherwise and do more overall harm to your point than any counter argument could.

Edit: For those just joining us in discussion view, I am the second comment in this thread and replied when this thread was less than 10 minutes old. It had 30 upvotes before there were even ten posts after it in 'new'. So in reality this post should have [current score] - 29 scoring.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

comparing the up and downvotes in this thread to any other RNG-thread in the last year...you are probably right.

Keevalroy1 votes

[deleted]

Earl Eulrich2 votes

technically...is pendragon happy with them using the up- and downvote option enthusiatically?

"Spirits that I´ve cited..."

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

if it was people voting on an opinion they've thought and considered, meaning a steady and linear growth in vote score, then hell, I'd be very happy to see this post rise to the top. I'm even a fan of the conversations it's generating. However, the fact that the very obvious vote brigading is getting attention like this can do nothing but set a seriously bad precedent.

Sir ArmaMalum5 votes

Oh hey, and my comment suddenly plunges to below view threshold in an instant. what a coincidink.

Update: This thread went from ~20-21 votes to 50 in less than a few seconds.

Keevalroy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir ArmaMalum,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=r3irX00j,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2015-04-28T22:56:35.976+0000)

Oh hey, and my comment suddenly plunges to below view threshold in an instant. what a coincidink.

It's not that hard to believe. There are people out there so delusional about game health that they need to votebot to try and save their precious RNG that they so desperately depend on to have a chance in a game that should be decided by skill and tactics.

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

See the funny thing is I support having crit in the game, but I also am open to discussion on the topic because I enjoy talking about game mechanics but this is not the way to generate discussion. My comment is actually specifically about the vote doctoring. Not only does it draw false conclusions with the fake support for a viewpoint but it also creates adversity for the mods, as deleting this thread or otherwise adjusting it's score will not translate well for the legitimate conversations happening in the comments.

Keevalroy4 votes

I agree, discussion is important.

I don't like or support crit, but I'll use it. I also don't try and depend on it to win, and wont pretend that I don't when my team is on a full retreat. Alternatively, once I finish IE before the other ADC, I get a bitter sweet feeling about winning the lane from that point. Sure, I can get a few early crits and dictate the lane how I please, but that's not healthy. Taking support presence out of the equation, if I fall behind and stay behind, unless it's a case of extreme counterpicking, then I can say I'm doing something wrong.

I hate having my trades and duels decided on who can crit more than the other. I get 3 crits in a row and kill the other guy while he didn't get 1 off on me. Sure that's great and I got 300g, but I don't feel good about how it happened.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

I completely agree in that case crit won you that trade without much input/play from your end, and that's an overall bad thing to happen. However, inversely, reliability can work against fair and engaging play as well.

If, say, crit is turned to a raw dmg amp (as is such a popular alternative to mention) you have no method of producing variance yourself. True, it's a team game and you need to also rely on your teammmates as well as your opponents mistakes, but without the possibility of a crit, or in other words a 'chaos factor' to consider the game/trading will always come down to momentum. The RNG element that crit brings actually brings more interaction and reactive play than without and imho make the game better.

However I did mention that chain crits, while rare, are an edge case I don't like. As such I'd be fine with something along the lines of a crit internal cooldown to allow the RNG possibility to remain but eliminating the possibility of a crit chain winning the entire lane. There are other suggestions I've seen like changing crits to a utility effect (resource refund, AS/MS buff, etc) among other ideas as well.

Personally I feel the idea of an RNG element isn't the thing people are against, but the simple fact that the crits can be a deciding factor in a lane in edge cases that they've been the unfortunate victim of.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

The RNG element that crit brings actually brings more interaction and reactive play than without and imho make the game better.

i personally always wonder if people that come up with this kind of idea ever have played anything but ad...if you lane top or mid you usually don´t have any sort of crit and yet it´s a highly tense environment, managing timers, minions, cooldowns, rotations, keeping track of the map and the opponent...there´s really absolutly no "chaos factor" needed. If the only way to gain momentum is to outplay your opponent one way or another, then i´d say it´s fair that momentum should usually gain the upper hand. If that wouldn´t happen there would be no way to gurantee that the better team would win in the end.

Sir ArmaMalum2 votes

Funnily enough I'm a top main :P

I don't think your comparison is entirely fair, as the regular occupants of top lane have more interactions naturally because of their kits and roles. Marksman, however, have significantly less interactions because they have to play safe and dish damage out primarily on auto attacks. Now I'm not saying marksmen take less skill to play, but simply that they have a much more binary playstyle than other roles. Hence crit being a welcome (imho) addition in there lists of things to consider.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

As someone that mained Support for most of the time i can assure you botlane is everything but a "binary playstyle" if you don´t make it as such. for lane.activity you really donßt need to add crit, and for teamfights - just watch some LPL-Games, with ADCs flashing forward to catch people off and actually deal dmg, screw savety!

Sir ArmaMalum3 votes

Binary may not have been the best adjective to use, but what I mean is that there are less factors to consider at any given time in bot lane than in top lane. For the marksman mind you. Supports are drowning in paranoia. The addition of a chaos element gives another factor to add into the pool usually reserved for marksman.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

I think that really entirelly depends on wether the bot is premade or not. Playing a premade vs premade you have to consistently keep up communication with your support and push/freeze/position accordingly to him so that you can follow the all in call or stay save if need be. It´s a really complex dance as it is..without those "oh sh**" moments when you follow up on a good thresh hook just to get a random crit in your face and what looked like a solid outplay turns into a fiasko.

draqxqard16 votes

I don't understand the hate for melee carries, they don't even actually carry.

Carry me Trynd senpai pls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mESw4w_IrA8

RisenDarkKnight9 votes

I disagree, crit is rng. Just make it % autoattack amplification. You woulnd't even have to change yasuo or trynd's passives or items

Celeste Benal34 votes

RNG IS %AA amp. Once you average it over time. idk y people get so bent out of shape over it.

Junkο4 votes

Current crit chance is still random. If 2 Yasuo's with 50% crit chance AA'd each other at 100 health, the one that got lucky would kill the other one. With the % amplification, both would kill each other.

Kouga5 votes

Well, actually, if 2 Yasuo's with 50% crit chance AA'd each other, they'd both always crit.

Because Yasuo have 2x Crit Chance and therefore both of them have 100% Crit chance in this scenario.

Just sayin'

Junkο4 votes

I mean as in 50% crit chance with their passive

T RexHasLongLegs1 votes

Or they would both die bc by the time they had 25% crit they probably do 100 damage on an auto

Junkο1 votes

Well armor and their shields exist. Though yea i prob should have made their hp higher.

Shinjusuke7 votes

Because of how it affects success cases, particularly in bot lane.

A lucky crit in the earlygame can completely shift the entire course of laning phase in the favor of a potentially less-skilled player. Sure, over time, it equals out, I don't think anyone is gonna contest that.

The point is that RNG shouldn't decide laning as heavily as it currently can, not necessarily "RNG IS EVIL".

Pretend you're in bot lane, playing ADC, in 2 different scenarios(crit vs no crit). Let's assume you get hit 3 times in the first lets say 10 minutes of laning, equaling the same amount of damage in either scenario.

If you're hit by 3 non-crit autos, you know exactly how much damage you can take, you can still CS and trade, and it doesn't necessarily change the way you approach the lane.

However, if the first of those 3 autos is a crit, you've now taken a large hit to your health, and even if the other 2 autos are non-crits that by themselves do less damage than in the no-crit scenario, you have to play safer. Not only do you not know for sure whether the next autos will be crits or not, you've taken twice the damage for no extra work on the enemy ADC's part, you have to come out on top during trades to reach equal threat levels with the enemy ADC, and depending on the damage level you might feel the need to (depending on when the damage was received) burn heal or your support might use mana/skills they wouldn't otherwise due to the immediate damage spike.


RNG definitely has a place in league, and on paper the numbers are balanced. The issue comes from the negative gameplay experience it causes, particularly in cases where a frontloaded crit in a trade rewards way too much for zero extra work on the "crit-er"s part, even if they sacrifice later damage instances to acquire it.

The "Consistent DPS" versus "Burst Damage" is a legitimate candidate for debate, as both have their benefits. The problem comes from "Burst Damage" being almost universally the superior option with regards to highly trade-focused lanes like Top and Bot where players are usually playing "Consistent DPS" roles, and that shouldn't be the case as much as it is.

Crit should stay, it should just not always be the more powerful option (at least as far as ADCs are concerned). Pure stats say it is not, it's effect on gameplay, laning, and PvP interactions say it is. If nothing else, raw AD should be just as appealing, but IE is such a powerful item right now (as it has been for awhile, since the BT "changes" cough nerf cough) and gives so much AD that rushing IE is almost always superior except in a few fringe cases.

Sammystorm3 votes

The lane it affects the most is actually top lane. In bot lane an adc has a support to help them out if a engage goes sour because of a crit.

Shinjusuke1 votes

That'd be true if the first buy for all but 3 top laners was always IE every single game, which I think everyone can agree its not.

Theoretically, yes, Top would be more affected by crit, but the champions played in top don't itemize for crit nearly as often, so it's affected significantly less.

Meanwhile, in bot lane, if you're playing anyone but Vayne or Ezreal (I'm sure there's at least one more, but i'm not an ADC and don't remember) and not rushing IE, you're screwing yourself over because IE is so much more powerful than anything else.

Sammystorm2 votes

The biggest offender is trynd. One or two crit and he snowballs out of control. In bot lane you have 2 people so even if something goes south because of a crit you can still come back.

Shinjusuke1 votes

Well yeah, Trynd is a major abuse case.

But Trynd isn't played every game.

That's my point, the cases where Top Laners abuse crit are certainly more problematic, but as a whole, it's less impactful in top lane due to the distinct gap in "crit-rushers" in top vs bot lane (since you have an ADC almost every game in bot lane and they're almost invariably rushing IE).

Sammystorm1 votes

Well that was kind of my point. The abuse cases are few and far between. So instead of trying to dramatically change crit. It might be better to look at the abuse cases.

It is true that adc's use crit. However the IE rush comes and goes based on the strength of Bt, Tri force, and BORK. One of the four is always rushed. Well adc's can occasionally get lucky crits. Usually adc's don't even have any crit until 10-12 minutes in when the laning phase is half-most of the way over. Which is part of the reason it isn't really a problem in bot lane.

AutoreactiveCD46 votes

I agreed until a lvl 1 tryn with no fury and 1% crit ruin crit me first hit then second and then the lane was over... I get why people are ok with this kind of RNG but I personally don't like having to consider something that random and fight changing.

Windup4 votes

[deleted]

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

I suppose you have a good point, I am mainly an advocate for the playstyle difference as it's a change from burst to sustained damage.

Sightless663 votes

In case crit rework is approved for the sake of ranged champion DPS,

What exactly do you mean by "for the sake of ranged champion DPS"? A crit rework that derandomized crit wouldn't have to touch their DPS at all. If we changed crit to a %autoattack damage increase, it would have the exact same expected DPS that the current random crits have. Reworking crit could just be for the sake of removing randomness, not hitting damage. What are you trying to say here?

I think the melee champions could be changed pretty easily. Yasuo is reliant on crit, but he isn't reliant on the RNG part of crit. He builds crit just because it is the best DPS steroid for him, not because he is trying to randomly get crits on people. You could change his to a % damage increase model easily without losing any part of his feel and without hurting him at all. Exactly the same DPS, which is all Yasuo cares about.

Similarly, Gangplank pokes with the Q, but he doesn't need to have crit-fishing as a main mechanic. Just increasing the damage of his Q by an equivalent amount to what the expected dps of crit would be plenty, particularly if it happened alongside buffs and changes that he already needs.

Tryndamere is the only one who would really need changes, since he is reliant on the randomness of crit early in the game. Given that he's the only champion in the game who would have a problem, a small redesign to make him fit with a derandomized crit system would be a better solution than preserving items just for him.

YOU BEEN WARNED8 votes

item 3142 ?

item 3078 ?

Garen ?

I don't see the problem of keeping a melee only item in the game. item 3124 item 3060 item 3050 have been in the game for so long and I disagree with removing them even if they don't work most of the time, they exist and provide unique, fun and different feelings that remain as an option. What disadvantage is there to their existence? Nearly nothing, item 3104 already exists in 3v3 and is highlighted in the patch notes. Just keep it, melee carries aren't nearly as viable as ADCs are.

PiRoScOuT1 votes

Wait so what is the thing with crit rework?

YOU BEEN WARNED15 votes

Riot is discussing the possiblity of replacing crit with a %damage amplification. Hold up, let me get the topic for you.

Got it:

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/qgP5fbUQ-as-an-adc-main-crit-needs-to-be-removed

junglerboy161 votes

While I also want crit to go the way of dodge and Phage's RNG slow proc, Riot has yet to say they are actually going to change it any time within the next year or more, and this discussion only shows other players also wanting crit gone, not Riot saying they are planning a rework.

Sir ArmaMalum1 votes

While I love the conversations happening here and the varied possibilities of what to do with crit, don't look at this post's score as support, at least 50 points from it have been vote-botted or brigaded. As well as any comments that weren't well liked.

Vellich0r1 votes

But yasuo without that silly crit tack on would be so much cooler. Imagine all the parts of his kit they could tune up and make really awesome if they just removed the stupid crit passive.

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