can garen get the same buff as xin?

Critmaster Garen·Jun 9, 2016·12 votes·1,185 views

its not looking too hot for him right now, and he could use a little something. not much, but something. since 1.10 hes in a terrible spot. its even hard to do well on him as a main.

with all the health nerfs on his items this season, increasing his base health/lvl shouldnt be too much.

either that, or you could revert the nerf to his base movement speed and q movement speed buff he got after his rework.

i guess its the repeated nerfs to swifties and the boot enchant removal that hit his effectiveness.

47 Comments

Ben SharpioJun 9, 20164 votes

The last thing i want to see is a Garen buff

DeathBurstJun 9, 20163 votes

Well, as a fellow Garen main AND an avid follower of all game design discussions around here, I can say one thing for certain: Garen will never get any buff to his base MS or Q MS buff. OK, maybe never is a strong word. Never in the next 6 months.

I do agree that the repeated Swifities nerf hurt him a lot. But they happened for a reason, the goal was to hurt Garen and the other users of them. So he won't get any compensation.

I also have more difficulties with him recently, but I put that on the fact that I was climbing in divisions. Maybe it's more the nerfs than the climbing, I don't know. Whatever, I wouldn't be sad if his HP were buffed. Still, asking for a buff just because Xin got one is kinda ridiculous... That's not how balance works...

P.S.: humm, is this a smurf account? I cannot see any match on op.gg...

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Well, as a fellow Garen main AND an avid follower of all game design discussions around here, I can say one thing for certain: Garen will never get any buff to his base MS or Q MS buff. OK, maybe never is a strong word. Never in the next 6 months.

I do agree that the repeated Swifities nerf hurt him a lot. But they happened for a reason, the goal was to hurt Garen and the other users of them. So he won't get any compensation.

I also have more difficulties with him recently, but I put that on the fact that I was climbing in divisions. Maybe it's more the nerfs than the climbing, I don't know. Whatever, I wouldn't be sad if his HP were buffed. Still, asking for a buff just because Xin got one is kinda ridiculous... That's not how balance works...

P.S.: humm, is this a smurf account? I cannot see any match on op.gg...

the swifties nerf wasnt targeted at garen or champions like him.

swifties had been a popular pick in pro play and high ranked games on most champions for a while.

and im not asking for a buff because xin got one, im asking to give garen the same buff, because its appropriate. a buff itself would be appropriate and one to his base hp in specific.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

P.S.: humm, is this a smurf account? I cannot see any match on op.gg...

yes. this is a smuprh account.

Left Hook LarryJun 9, 20163 votes

Garen is already cancerous with his bullshit kit. Doesn't need more

CaítlynJun 9, 20162 votes

Am I seriously reading a thread saying Garen needs more health

CeexSettJun 9, 20161 votes

It appears so. Why?

redniwediSJun 9, 20162 votes

I'd be all for reverting the movement speed nerfs. When I actually get into combat Garen feels fine, but he's just so slow now compared to how he always was. The state of kiting has really done a number on him.

zlumpyJun 9, 20162 votes

I tell you what. You can have more Hp and move speed, BUT you get a mana pool. Seems fair to me.

ElishevaJun 9, 20162 votes

Garen... Doesn't need a buff. Hasn't needed a buff. And won't need a buff for a while. He already has stupid waveclear, stupid damage, stupid innate armor and magic resist, a silence, speed buff, an EXECUTE, literally 100% infinite hp sustain, the only reason he needs to back is to cash in his 7'th pentas gold.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deiformis Ira,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-06-09T16:29:43.796+0000)

Garen... Doesn't need a buff. Hasn't needed a buff. And won't need a buff for a while. He already has stupid waveclear, stupid damage, stupid innate armor and magic resist with his W, a silence, speed buff, an EXECUTE, literally 100% infinite hp sustain, the only reason he needs to back is to cash in his 7'th pentas gold.

http://champion.gg/champion/Garen

he needs one.

i dont think he needs something big, but the last couple patches hit him hard. look at his play rate with that winrate combined if you dotn believe me.

Left Hook LarryJun 9, 20161 votes

He is at a 50% win rate. Lmfao. Win rate alone doesn't mean anything anyways

N3mO06Jun 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2016-06-09T16:30:13.551+0000)

http://champion.gg/champion/Garen

he needs one.

i dont think he needs something big, but the last couple patches hit him hard. look at his play rate with that winrate combined if you dotn believe me.

if he needs a buff......what about rengar? http://champion.gg/champion/Rengar 44% win rate before 30 min.......which game lasts more then 20 min without being stompy?

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

if he needs a buff......what about rengar? http://champion.gg/champion/Rengar 44% win rate before 30 min.......which game lasts more then 20 min without being stompy?

8% play rate. this has a large influence.

you can see that people who have 125+ games under their belt on rengar still have 55% winrate. means while hes maybe 1% or 2% too weak now, you can still perform well on him.

garen is like at 45% for his mains.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deiformis Ira,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-06-09T16:29:43.796+0000)

Garen... Doesn't need a buff. Hasn't needed a buff. And won't need a buff for a while. He already has stupid waveclear, stupid damage, stupid innate armor and magic resist, a silence, speed buff, an EXECUTE, literally 100% infinite hp sustain, the only reason he needs to back is to cash in his 7'th pentas gold.

ok, here is the problem with you guys. i dont even need to look into your account to know that yorue either sitting somewhere in bronze or silver.

for some reason garen is considered a god in that mmr range. as well as some other bruisers. and since 70% of the player base is sitting either in bronze or silver, i already expected that this thread wouldnt be well received.

but this isnt the skill range riot is balancing the game around. they officially stated that theyre balancing around plat and upwards. because the problem is you cant make the game competitive at higher ranks by balancing it around the lower ranks where people are simply not playing correct and human error overpowers general game balance.

if yorue sitting in bronze and silver for whatever reason. maybe youre new, maybe youre not understanding certain key mechanics of the game yet. its up to you to learn how to get better at playing and not up to riot to make the game easier for you.

fact is, that up until 1.10 garen was actually in a generally decent state and then took a serious hit due to the general changes, which warrants a buff.

listing all of his attributes wont change anything about that.

ElishevaJun 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=00090001,timestamp=2016-06-09T16:48:12.262+0000)

ok, here is the problem with you guys. i dont even need to look into your account to know that yorue either sitting somewhere in bronze or silver.

for some reason garen is considered a god in that mmr range. as well as some other bruisers. and since 70% of the player base is sitting either in bronze or silver, i already expected that this thread wouldnt be well received.

but this isnt the skill range riot is balancing the game around. they officially stated that theyre balancing around plat and upwards. because the problem is you cant make the game competitive at higher ranks by balancing it around the lower ranks where people are simply not playing correct and human error overpowers general game balance.

if yorue sitting in bronze and silver for whatever reason. maybe youre new, maybe youre not understanding certain key mechanics of the game yet. its up to you to learn how to get better at playing and not up to riot to make the game easier for you.

fact is, that up until 1.10 garen was actually in a generally decent state and then took a serious hit due to the general changes, which warrants a buff.

listing all of his attributes wont change anything about that.

Even so, no champion should be god in every mmr range. He is god tier in noob range, where I'm at, but he doesn't have utility other than his silence, so he'd be useless in organized matches. It's his kit. It'd be easier to find a similar feeling champion with more utility for higher ranked games. They'd need to overhaul his skills to make him genuinely viable up past gold.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deiformis Ira,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=000900010000,timestamp=2016-06-09T16:56:09.183+0000)

Even so, no champion should be god in every mmr range. He is god tier in noob range, where I'm at, but he doesn't have utility other than his silence, so he'd be useless in organized matches. It's his kit. It'd be easier to find a similar feeling champion with more utility for higher ranked games. They'd need to overhaul his skills to make him genuinely viable up past gold.

fucking hell man.

he WAS genuinely viable past gold. just a couple of patches ago he was fine. he did actually do well in plat on experienced players while maintaining a decent winrate.

go to lolking and filter through bronze and silver over all regions. hes sitting at 50% winrate even in those ratings right now. thats not even close to god tier or should prevent him from getting buffed.

hes just undertuned at the moment. simple as that. his rework did put him into a decent nieche within a team. but indirect nerfs took a dump on him.

redniwediSJun 9, 20161 votes

God tier? Critmaster isn't asking for Garen to be god tier in every mmr, he's asking for Garen to be competitive outside of low mmr. Recent changes have hurt Garen, so all he's asking for is compensation to bring him back where he was.

Papa SlothyJun 10, 20161 votes

annoying doesn't always equal unbalanced

ElishevaJun 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Papa Slothy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=00090002,timestamp=2016-06-10T05:19:30.606+0000)

annoying doesn't always equal unbalanced

Which is why I never used the word annoying.

Papa SlothyJun 10, 20161 votes

sorry lol, u recently posted a comment that explains what you were saying

mb i didn't understand your post

ElishevaJun 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Papa Slothy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=0009000200000000,timestamp=2016-06-10T19:04:55.282+0000)

sorry lol, u recently posted a comment that explains what you were saying

mb i didn't understand your post

xD np np

AlwaysByMySideJun 9, 20162 votes

Garen dips to about a 50% win rate for a couple of patches and suddenly he's in a "terrible" spot lol.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=Memeglaive Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-06-09T17:00:22.594+0000)

Garen dips to about a 50% win rate for a couple of patches and suddenly he's in a "terrible" spot lol.

his playrate has been declining for the last 4month with 1 indirect nerf after another. but until a couple patches ago if you knew the champion you could still do fine on him around plat.

its not just a dip in winrate, but he kinda crashed. you cant even do well on him anymore if youre a good garen player.

you have to compare his winrate on experienced players before which was at about 57% to his winrate now, that only a few mains are playing him. which is less than 50%. the actual loss in winrate is somewhere around 7% to 8%.

i kinda noticed it by playing at first. and then i saw how his winrate generally took a dive after the statistics updated.

look at what an influence the small bugfix on darius pull had on him. he just shot up in winrate because its more reliable. so yea, all those changes in the past month can do that to a champion.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20162 votes

actually looking at it again, i cant help but wonder if there isnt really some bug going on with garen right now that negatively impacts his gameplay.

the winrate for inexperienced players didnt change at all. its still at around 45%.

but the winrate for garen mains took an overall 12% loss. if youre playing a champion enough to expect him to behave a certain way intuitively, then even slight changes can make gigantic differences.

it might be all the indirect nerfs he received, but by the looks of it i wouldnt be surprised if there is some sort of bug going on like back when he didnt get the last 2 of his spin ticks.

redniwediSJun 9, 20161 votes

Honestly I don't think many of those inexperience players play at a level where champions who do well against Garen are used properly. Garen mains around the boards at least seem to be around mid silver and higher in rank, but that's just a small observation.

Lady HammerlockJun 10, 20162 votes

They can't really do that with Garen his kit lacks meaningful counterplay that doesn't happen to be kiting and another issue is more Base hp and HP per level = more regen on his passive which means your buffing 3 things

he also has passive resistances

Kledy McKledFaceJun 9, 20161 votes

they could give back his old ult animation whch fits better with his lore..

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20162 votes

{quoted}

they could give back his old ult animation whch fits better with his lore..

id actually like that too. the skysword just felt more finite and powerful than the lighting.

SSJTribeJun 9, 20161 votes

I dunno, I really enjoy saying "Garenchu, use Thunderbolt!"

LatetotheRaceJun 9, 20161 votes

I would be fine if Garen received more health, but the silence on his Q needs to scale differently. It should really only top out at 2.5 seconds max, as if you silence someone, they could be out of the fight entirely. 3.5 seconds is a loooong time for a (more or less) targeted shut up sword.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20165 votes

{quoted}

I would be fine if Garen received more health, but the silence on his Q needs to scale differently. It should really only top out at 2.5 seconds max, as if you silence someone, they could be out of the fight entirely. 3.5 seconds is a loooong time for a (more or less) targeted shut up sword.

his q has never silenced for 3.5 seconds.

and the silence doesnt scale up since his rework anymore. its 1.5 seconds at all ranks.

LatetotheRaceJun 9, 20162 votes

Mb, misread the wiki.

The Yetii RiderJun 9, 20161 votes

MS too low?

Sounds like you should prioritize Cloud Drakes!

Also, I would think this would be a buff to Garen. Ninja Tabi just got buffed, now he has no reason not to buy it. Slower but tankier, easy success as a juggernaut.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2016-06-09T15:54:25.860+0000)

MS too low?

Sounds like you should prioritize Cloud Drakes!

Also, I would think this would be a buff to Garen. Ninja Tabi just got buffed, now he has no reason not to buy it. Slower but tankier, easy success as a juggernaut.

out of combat movement speed is something entirely different. if i want to roam, i get dmp.

by your logic i could buy mobies to compensate for a direct ms loss. they dont help me for shit in a fight.

thats why no one goes for sky drake unless they have a splitpush comp. out of combat movement speed is just not that useful.

The Yetii RiderJun 9, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2016-06-09T16:03:43.026+0000)

out of combat movement speed is something entirely different. if i want to roam, i get dmp.

by your logic i could buy mobies. they dont help me for shit in a fight.

Out of combat ms definitely helps if you're chasing. It doesn't help if you're getting kited but if the opponent has to run entirely away from you rather than orb walking, you get a nice chunk of MS that will boost your next Q.

Critmaster GarenJun 9, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-06-09T16:17:27.685+0000)

Out of combat ms definitely helps if you're chasing. It doesn't help if you're getting kited but if the opponent has to run entirely away from you rather than orb walking, you get a nice chunk of MS that will boost your next Q.

no it doesnt help a lot lol. all you need is to take any form of damage or have something thrown in your direction and the bonus is gone. why do you think no one attempts to contest that drake?

and its not even close to comparable to a general decreased movement speed, that would help you out in fights.

MunchCrunchLunchJun 9, 20161 votes

he gets free stats. i dont think its a good idea.

EWBS MithileshJun 10, 20161 votes

when the items change, builds change too. as former garen main, get frozen mallet and dead man plate. then swifties or ninja or merc tread.

even if you dont go this route hes still good. focus engage and re-engage with sirit visage and wormogs.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2192287620/227942102?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2195080874/227942102?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2204208028/227942102?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2192340344/227942102?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2141252997/227942102?tab=overview

Critmaster GarenJun 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

when the items change, builds change too. as former garen main, get frozen mallet and dead man plate. then swifties or ninja or merc tread.

even if you dont go this route hes still good. focus engage and re-engage with sirit visage and wormogs.

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2192287620/227942102?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2195080874/227942102?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2204208028/227942102?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2192340344/227942102?tab=overview http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2141252997/227942102?tab=overview

i switched to tabi after the buff.

mallet is still terrible on him, since youre not auto attacking enough to make actual use of the slow. the only reason youd get the item was the ad/hp combination.

and no offense, dude, but youre sitting in bronze 5. i could probably build him ap or full ad down there and still win games. that rating is no indicator of his actual strength.

like i already said, riot doesnt balance around bronze, because individual errors and terrible plays outweight actual champion balance to a point where you simply cant balance that rating.

bronze 5 is literally the bottom of the barrel of the player base and no one there actually knows how to play the game.

EWBS MithileshJun 10, 20161 votes

says the level 10? smurf?

and i know how to play the game, its just i dont hard carry enough.

and do you even know what youre talking about? building garen ap while none of his abilities scale from ap?

Critmaster GarenJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

and i know how to play the game.

no you dont. or you wouldnt be sitting in bronze 5. this is a reality you have to accept if you ever want to get further than you already are.

if you were at least halfway decent, you would be able to carry enough.

the first time ive played ranked in season 3 (had been playing the game since season 1). it placed me in silver 1. this isnt because i played well, but merely average.

you have to realize that the player average in skill in this game is around silver 3 to silver 1. and thats not even close to good or enough to take into consideration when it comes to champion and game balance. hence why riot balances the game around plat and upwards.

to get stuck somewhere in bronz 5 you have to play way below average and you have to be lacking in almost every single aspect. be it individual champion mechanics or general game knowledge.

EWBS MithileshJun 11, 20161 votes

dude youre level 10 lol but i ended up in bronze because i switched roles right after i started ranked. and my placements landed my in silver 3.

im actually a better player now than i was then just lacking in hard carry.

EWBS MithileshJun 11, 20161 votes

and you can believe whatever you want dude its your life i already told you the truth

L0ve Is BlueJun 10, 20161 votes

I can tell you that when he ults me and deals over 1k true damage things are pretty fucking hot for him lol

Critmaster GarenJun 10, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lemon Graber,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qzvvdmoW,comment-id=000f,timestamp=2016-06-10T13:26:19.112+0000)

I can tell you that when he ults me and deals over 1k true damage things are pretty fucking hot for him lol

anecdotal evidence is a basis for champion balance now?

not to mention its hard to judge how much damage garens ult actually does, since death recap doesnt cut off overkill. when he ults you on 50 hp and deals 50 damage, it makes it look as if the ult dealt 2k damage due to the missing health scaling.

DaneQueedJun 10, 20161 votes

I was thinking about garen lately too, I played him up into like plat 5-4 then after that just shelved him entirely. Its just so easy to play around garen and even tho he can do tons of damage can be hard to stick on to things in league of dashes, swifties change hurt, black cleaver change rocked. Champs that just run at you and do damage are hard to do things besides pubstomp with, its not that he cant be successful. It can just be difficult.

These are probably op ideas but I was thinking of some stuff for garen Maybe lower MS on Q but give him slow resistance per point into Q for the same duration you get the movespeed boost (so its active) Small amount of tenacity per point in W. I think he used to have this a long time ago but was removed. movespeed resistance or movespeed when being in X range of the villan. After cleansing a movespeed slow with Q maybe make it so he cannot be slowed for .5 seconds or something after cleaning.