%pen items are too good.

The thigh guy·Sep 28, 2019·8 votes·3,573 views

There is no downside to building them. You aren’t “losing damage” against squishies when you build them like people seem to think.

I’ll use void staff as an example.

Generally it’s a third item. So the build will be Morello, void, ludens and sorc shoes. Easy. Pretty core. Most mages build it.

Your target is an adc. So roughly 60mr. Because let’s say they got merc treads because. Cc annoying.

Let’s remove the mr from him based on the mages build. 36 mpen and 40%. The 40% comes off first cause rito fucked tanks.

60 x 0.60 = 36. 36 remaining mr. okay. Now remove the 36 flat pen from it. Oh look true damage.

This is a problem.

Armor gets the same fucking treatment.

This is why damage is so STUPIDLY high right now. This is the primary reason.

If EVERYTHING wasn’t dealing true damage to everything else, rune damages wouldn’t even be that big a problem.

31 Comments

Crispy0SnakeSep 28, 20194 votes

I mean I think Void Staff is the only problem. 40% is huge. Especially when you pay 3000 gold for a 55 MR item most of the time

Armor items, you can get 100 item 3110 80 item 3075 70 item 3143 ... and %armor pen items only give ~40 AD, so there's a trade off of filling a slot with an understat+cheap item item 3036 item 3033 . Whereas there's no trade off with void staff as it still gives you a really good amount of AP

FioraWillCarrySep 28, 20195 votes

Think of an auto attack as a very low cooldown ability with 100% total AD scaling. Of course armor is more readily available. Most magic damage in the game is gated by cooldowns which means in general less magic damage is being dealt than physical damage.

RagnaveilSep 28, 20192 votes

Even though AP items are very cost efficient and usually have cdr. Not to mention runes that give cdr exist too. Which said runes also give adaptive, a stat that heavy favors AP with their effects.

FioraWillCarrySep 28, 20191 votes

This still doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of magic damage is applied as burst within limited windows, regardless of CDR. No amount of CDR could make a Veigar apply 400 damage twice every second until the target is dead or gets away but your typical marksman can do this with enough on-hit/AD/Crit and attack speed through their autos alone.

Given that mages have limited windows, they should get the bang for their buck when these windows do open up.

RagnaveilSep 28, 20191 votes

Ok, so they deserve to completely nullify every bit of magic resist on top of having high amounts of ability damage that AD casters can only dream of. Yeah no. Their items need a whole rework again, so AP Fighters and Bruisers can be a thing finally, instead of having champs like Rumble, Diana, and Sylas build like burst mages.

Crescent DuskSep 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Ok, so they deserve to completely nullify every bit of magic resist on top of having high amounts of ability damage that AD casters can only dream of. Yeah no. Their items need a whole rework again, so AP Fighters and Bruisers can be a thing finally, instead of having champs like Rumble, Diana, and Sylas build like burst mages.

Um, considering edge of night, banshees, and multiple ways of blocking skill shots exist in several AD and AP champ kits, yes, mages deserve to actually hit like a truck when one of their skills land, considering most mages can't just right click someone to death and they don't get the luxury of PD and GA, which are far superior to Zhonyas since they don't freeze you in place ready to eat a skill shot while stationary and stopping all offensive momentum, while PD and GA on top of bloodthirster/death's dance allow AD champs to stay offensive while having their defensive perks.

MrHaZeYoSep 28, 20192 votes

Another thing, HP also is a good "counter" to burst damage, which most mages do.

On the flipside though, A lot of Mage items are defensive. Mages get a lot of free HP (Which again, is because HP counters burst)

FioraWillCarrySep 29, 20191 votes

This is a very good point as well.

Tahminatrix Sep 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

This still doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of magic damage is applied as burst within limited windows, regardless of CDR. No amount of CDR could make a Veigar apply 400 damage twice every second until the target is dead.

I think veigar is an extremely funny example since he is the only champ in the game with infinitely scaling cdr on his W.

FioraWillCarrySep 29, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tahminatrix ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2019-09-28T06:06:17.770+0000)

I think veigar is an extremely funny example since he is the only champ in the game with infinitely scaling cdr on his W.

No amount of CDR will every make Veigar able to out-dps a marksman. Even DPS mages like Cassiopeia and Azir cannot out DPS a properly built Jinx or Cait.

only lucianoSep 28, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Think of an auto attack as a very low cooldown ability with 100% total AD scaling. Of course armor is more readily available. Most magic damage in the game is gated by cooldowns which means in general less magic damage is being dealt than physical damage.

Also, a majority of magic abilities are skill shots, AA never miss. Another thing is that you lose out on survivability since void staff only gives damage. You ADC's can build damage only because your survivability is usually based off your support. If your tank support isn't tanking for you or your enchanters is not buffing/shielding you then you have the wrong support.

FioraWillCarrySep 29, 20191 votes

Yea. That's exactly right.

Anime FizzSep 28, 20192 votes

LW items arent that great (only very few champs can build Mortal reminder situationally, while LDR is literally never bought and mortal is bought for the healing reduc not even the pen), but void yes is one of the most OP items in the game, even more so when you combine it with the other broken mage items.

Crescent DuskSep 28, 20193 votes

[{quoted}](name=Anime Fizz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-09-28T03:55:03.288+0000)

LW items arent that great (only very few champs can build Mortal reminder situationally, while LDR is literally never bought and mortal is bought for the healing reduc not even the pen), but void yes is one of the most OP items in the game, even more so when you combine it with the other broken mage items.

What?

LDR+BC are core items for Zed, pretty much every challenger Zed builds it and it allows him to treat a full tank Poppy like an Evelynn/Ashe with his ult up.

The reason LDR isn't built more often is because of the sheer influx of %hp damage and true damage kit and items champs in the game allowing them to bypass armor without investing in LDR, but for champions who don't LDR is an incredibly good investment.

FSRERSep 28, 20192 votes

The oldest penetration items that have remained untouched are the only ones that are currently balanced. item 3036 item 3033 Low damage, grievious wounds or more pen Meanwhile item 3142 item 3147 item 3814 Active speed up and cdr and damage, Extra dmg when leaving stealth ward destroying passive (which needs to be removed) more cdr and damage, active shield health damage and lethality. Nobody sees a problem here huh Not to talk about item 3135 of course which a mage with a Ludens and Void staff can pierce through Spirit Visage and Adaptive helm without any problems

Sinister AnubisSep 28, 20192 votes

Without decent pen no one will die.

The thigh guySep 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ninja Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-09-28T07:22:38.527+0000)

Without decent pen no one will die.

That’s why it’s a problem. This isn’t “decent pen” this is. Oh my god you build this item no matter what even against non tanks because it’s so broken out it’s ass pen.

When a anti tank item becomes SO GOOD that it’s a core item built into teams with zero tanks and little to no me being built, it’s a problem.

Sinister AnubisSep 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-09-28T09:30:34.216+0000)

That’s why it’s a problem. This isn’t “decent pen” this is. Oh my god you build this item no matter what even against non tanks because it’s so broken out it’s ass pen.

When a anti tank item becomes SO GOOD that it’s a core item built into teams with zero tanks and little to no me being built, it’s a problem.

Pen has ALWAYS been core no matter what. Especially when you have damage ite.s with defensive stats like, item 3174 item 3387 item 3155 item 3156 item 3139 item 3191 item 3231 item 3091 item 3102 item 3026 item 3001 . Not to mention the base states and HP that is built into many other items and shield items like item 3003 item 3046 item 3053 . You would need all the pen you can get to keep your numbers high. As a matter of fact if you wasnt building pen for years now you are doing it wrong.

The thigh guySep 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ninja Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-09-28T17:59:37.166+0000)

Pen has ALWAYS been core no matter what. Especially when you have damage ite.s with defensive stats like, . Not to mention the base states and HP that is built into many other items and shield items like . You would need all the pen you can get to keep your numbers high. As a matter of fact if you wasnt building pen for years now you are doing it wrong.

Except NONE of those items except for maybe seekers is built regularly for anything but their passives. Why? Because pen is so STUPIDLY broken out it’s ass.

Sinister AnubisSep 28, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-28T18:56:39.300+0000)

Except NONE of those items except for maybe seekers is built regularly for anything but their passives. Why? Because pen is so STUPIDLY broken out it’s ass.

Sry I see these items built on the regular. Idk what elo ur in or what games you play I see adcs almost always buy item 3026 and if a heavy cc comp item 3139 almost all ezreal buy item 3025 , other on hit adcs and even melee buy item 3091 ad assassins vs ap almost always buys item 3155 and some finish it to item 3156 and a lot of your AP supports will buy item 3174 because it offers a lot and the item probably not bought that often is item 3001 mostly amumu buys this

The thigh guySep 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ninja Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-28T20:16:16.254+0000)

Sry I see these items built on the regular. Idk what elo ur in or what games you play I see adcs almost always buy and if a heavy cc comp almost all ezreal buy , other on hit adcs and even melee buy ad assassins vs ap almost always buys and some finish it to and a lot of your AP supports will buy because it offers a lot and the item probably not bought that often is mostly amumu buys this

Ga and merc come last in a build. They aren’t even considered until 5th item. A item slot that isn’t filled until 35-45 minutes into the game. In a game with an average time of 25 minutes.

Ezreal builds triforce more than ibg but okay dude. You get one champion. Who’s garbage tier I guess?

Witts end is a joke of an item. No one builds it with any frequency.

Hexdrinker. Sure. I guess. 25 mr. so broke. Must nerf. Then maw. This is the biggest joke I’ve seen on the boards. This item isn’t touched until late of the late game. And even then it’s only because they have a component for it.

2 ap supports touch Athenes. 2 of them. Next.

Oh wow. Abyssal mask. It’s almost like it’s a tank item. In a game where tank stats no longer work. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

Sinister AnubisSep 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-28T21:32:37.988+0000)

Ga and merc come last in a build. They aren’t even considered until 5th item. A item slot that isn’t filled until 35-45 minutes into the game. In a game with an average time of 25 minutes.

Ezreal builds triforce more than ibg but okay dude. You get one champion. Who’s garbage tier I guess?

Witts end is a joke of an item. No one builds it with any frequency.

Hexdrinker. Sure. I guess. 25 mr. so broke. Must nerf. Then maw. This is the biggest joke I’ve seen on the boards. This item isn’t touched until late of the late game. And even then it’s only because they have a component for it.

2 ap supports touch Athenes. 2 of them. Next.

Oh wow. Abyssal mask. It’s almost like it’s a tank item. In a game where tank stats no longer work. Hmmmmmmmmmm.

You sound butt hurt. In what world should you not buy pen? It has to be worth buying or no one would. Without it no one would deal damage. Juggernauts would rule. nty!

The thigh guySep 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ninja Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-28T21:35:37.017+0000)

You sound butt hurt. In what world should you not buy pen? It has to be worth buying or no one would. Without it no one would deal damage. Juggernauts would rule. nty!

I sound butt hurt because I’m right? Okay dude. Stay delusional friend. Stay delusional.

Sinister AnubisSep 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-28T22:24:23.425+0000)

I sound butt hurt because I’m right? Okay dude. Stay delusional friend. Stay delusional.

You didn't answer my question and called me delusional.

I'll ask again.

In what would should penetration not be bought? Explain why it would be more beneficial to not buy it.

The thigh guySep 29, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ninja Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-28T23:45:55.582+0000)

You didn't answer my question and called me delusional.

I'll ask again.

In what would should penetration not be bought? Explain why it would be more beneficial to not buy it.

And I have answered your question. You chose to ignore it.

%Pen in its current state is a must buy. That is a problem.

Because %pen is so stupidly strong, tanks can never exist.

There is no game played where you don’t see item 3153 item 3071 item 3035 item 3134 items item 3135 item 3020 item 3165

When these anti tank items are so strong they are being built into teams with no tanks. There is a issue.

Sinister AnubisSep 29, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-29T00:17:58.182+0000)

And I have answered your question. You chose to ignore it.

%Pen in its current state is a must buy. That is a problem.

Because %pen is so stupidly strong, tanks can never exist.

There is no game played where you don’t see items

When these anti tank items are so strong they are being built into teams with no tanks. There is a issue.

You still ignore the question. Why should we not buy pen?

Pen should be core and built every game. There is legit no reason to not buy it. As someone who is trying to deal damage, you want to penetrate as much of their resistance as possible rather its their base resistance or built ones. There is no reason to not buy it. If you refuse to buy pen as a carry you are just doing it wrong. Trying to tell me or anyone else that pen should not be core is plain idiotic.

The thigh guySep 29, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ninja Anubis,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=00030000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-29T00:52:58.036+0000)

You still ignore the question. Why should we not buy pen?

Pen should be core and built every game. There is legit no reason to not buy it. As someone who is trying to deal damage, you want to penetrate as much of their resistance as possible rather its their base resistance or built ones. There is no reason to not buy it. If you refuse to buy pen as a carry you are just doing it wrong. Trying to tell me or anyone else that pen should not be core is plain idiotic.

And you’ve again chosen to ignore the answer.

There is no reason to not build pen. THATS THE PROBLEM

Sinister AnubisSep 29, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=000300000000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-29T01:56:35.151+0000)

And you’ve again chosen to ignore the answer.

There is no reason to not build pen. THATS THE PROBLEM

You are confused like seriously. Tell me why it shouldn't be core? Like list any reason.

Posui GartSep 28, 20191 votes

This is why damage is so STUPIDLY high right now. This is the primary reason.

It worked exactly like this for years. Except that void was actually nerfed a lot, oblivion orb was nerfed a lot and before this mpen was on haunting guise that was like a core item for certain mages Mres fucks up mages pretty hard because they have no way to finish their target after initial burst. ADCs are not supposed to be able to get item 3111 + item 3155 and just facetank everything

The thigh guySep 28, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Posui Gart,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qyz674F5,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2019-09-28T21:50:26.564+0000)

It worked exactly like this for years. Except that void was actually nerfed a lot, oblivion orb was nerfed a lot and before this mpen was on haunting guise that was like a core item for certain mages Mres fucks up mages pretty hard because they have no way to finish their target after initial burst. ADCs are not supposed to be able to get + and just facetank everything

Except it hasn’t. %pen used to be %bonus pen. And it used to apply after flat pen. Then riot decided. Nah let’s make 3 stats in the game utterly worthless because “muh damage” cried assassins.

Posui GartSep 29, 20191 votes

Lies

V1.0.0.152 Magic penetration reduced to 35% from 40%. Void Staff is now applied before flat magic penetration.

Void staff never had %bonus pen. %pen was made to be applied before flat pen in season 1 It had 35% pen instead of 40%, but was also way cheaper. Unless you complain that game has "too much damage" since season 1, you are straight up lying