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Why are scarecrows scary? (A thread about Fiddlesticks)

SaltyToplaneGoat··34 votes·4,610 views

Good Morning Boards! (or whatever it is in your timezone).

There is something that is really bugging me recently: why am I not seeing more of that handsome scarecrow in the rift? I mean, strong jungle sustain, uncounterable cc, extremly good trading potential and a ult that can singlehandly win a teamfight - in theory I he should be a total pick or ban case like he has been in the past, and yet... I barely see him. And I wonder why. His kit is not only strong on paper, so that's not the problem... But what is it then?

I will go ahead now and state that he is in need of a rework - and that not just because of popularity reasons. There are some real issues with his kit, most of them lying in the total lack of counterplay, but it's also really clunky at some points. Let's be honest about that, compared to modern champions poor Fiddles looks really outdated and feels weird to play. Something that is also caused by something that is the absolutely WORST thing in my eyes: a poor theme to gameplay translation in combination with the lack of a real theme.

I'm not really talking about lore here (since he currently has none), but more about the basic theme that he has: the "cursed scarecrow", a quite popular horror trope back in the past (not so much nowadays tho).

But... what is so scary about some sticks and some cloth?

At first it appears neither dangerous nor threatening.

_Imagine being out in the country, the sun is setting and you are looking into the distance. There is literally nothing for miles apart from the road, the fields and this ugly as fuck thing someone has put up to shoo the birds away. You barely pay any attention to it until you slowly notice something. Wasn't this thing supposed to be a little more to the left? Meh, maybe it's just the summer heat messing with your brain... The next moment you look at it it seems like it's looking at you. You have no idea why, but you could have sworn that it had turned a little towards you. You keep an eye on it, but nothing happens, no matter how long you watch it. A crow flies down and sits down behind the scarecrow. "What a useless thing", you think, "Doesn't even keep brids away...". So you look away again, but when you look back a second later there is no doubt that something is wrong: the scarecrow has moved about fiften steps towards you. There was no sound, apart from the wind blowing through the fields. It's not moving. It just hangs there, completly lifeless - until you blink and it's suddenly even closer to you. Even more crows gather around you, but they are strangely silent, so you don't even notice them at first. Irritated you stumble backwards, keeping an eye on that weird thing that shows no intention of actually moving. You run, leaving that cursed place, but then you notice something and stop. In front of you a murder of crows sits on the ground, all of the birds staring on you as if they are waiting for something. _ Before you turn around, you realize that it was a great mistake to stop running, as you feel an unnatural breath reeking of hay and cloth on your neck. It's the last thing you notice before the darkness consumes you...

OK, maybe I got a bit carried away while writing that, but his general theme should be clear: it's the uncanny feeling that something is somehow terribly wrong. Something is moving although it's not supposed to be - but the tricky thing is: you don't actually SEE it moving. You know it can't move. It's just some wood, no? But yet it did move in that one second when you weren't looking, slowly coming closer and closer...

Now combine that with Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds" and you you have Fiddlesticks, the manifestation of the uncanny. That's his theme. Yet the execution of that ingame has not really been sucessfull. Fear and life-drain make sense as stereotypically "evil" mechanics, but how they currently work barely has the desired effect, neither does the player feel like commanding a manifestation of fear, nor is the enemy player specifically creeped out by Fiddle - if most he is anyoed because he cannot trade anyways against Fear + Silence + Drain.

How exactly a rework would go, that's nothing I'm completly sure about since it will be really complicated to make this theme really work without reducing him to some kind of horror-carricature.

At first it has to be said that causing fear and life drain are basic mechanics and his kit needs to somehow interact with crows. A first step would be to change Dark Wind so it works like in the Twist of Fate cinematic: a murder of crows rushes over the enemy, hindering them and reducing their vision temporarely (that last part would go perfectly with his creepy theme).

Another kay aspect would be to give him MASSIVE bonuses while the enemy team has no vision on him. That would go good into the theme. Remember the part of the story where you stare and stare yet nothing happens? As long as you can see Fiddles from afar it's not a problem. The problem is when you suddenly DON'T see him...

Well, anyways, just my 2 cents. Or what do you guys think about Fiddles?

EDIT 1: I copy a post of mine into the op because I think the idea is neat. (also I used this edit to fix some typos)

Well I thought of something that could work with this.

Imagine Fiddles being able to place mutiple scarecrows on the field and whenever one of these scarecrows is not under enemy team vision he can lose his current "scarecrow" and change into the next one. The spell for that could be a 4 second channel, so it can't be used for "lol you can't kill me stuff". He leaves an "empty" scarecrow behind at that position.

Those scarecrows do nothing, give medicore vision and they can be attacked.

Now, let's step this up a little. Remember what I said about dark wind before, about turning it into a vision denial tool? Now the twist: Dark Wind can now be cast from ANY scarecrow position, no matter how far away fiddle is. If he is not casting it himself the damage can be lower, but the vision block should be enough to allow him a "warp in". Now also alow it ti turn of wards temporarely and it's an awesome spell ^^

Of course for this the rest of the kit would require some changes too, but I think the result could be extremly terrifying (and awesome).

Imagine suddenly finding a scarecrow in your jungle. Do you attack it and risk fiddle going Dark Wind -> Warp in? Or do you leave the area as fast as possible, but then risk to fall behind in your jungle? A simply passive token, yet it can have such an psychological effect :D

86 Comments

Crowe Stalker7 votes

So you are suggesting Dark Wind work like a Linear Skillshot version of Graves Smoke Grenade? I think that'd be interesting. Also, I think Fear is currently useless in it's current iteration for Fiddlesticks. It's up to 2.25 second of very lightly walking in the opposite direction. It's not "AAHH! DO NOT WANT!" kind of scare, but more of a "Ew, get away!" Kind of scare and that doesn't work thematically. If Fiddlesticks were to become more interesting, here's what I suggest (Disclaimer: I don't claim this is balanced bit it's just my ideas for a rework):

Passive: Dread Aura - Damage to targets that have no vision or under CC increased by 10/15/20% This rewards him for good ultimates and follow-ups instead of penalizing his damage for not fear-auto-ulting.

Q: Insert spooky scary Rek'sai Tunnels here (Seriously, we need something better, how about like a Ward Jump with a retroactive cooldown based on how far you go with a two second casttime?)

Drain - I actually like how Drain works, but it doesn't help in Teamfights. Reduce the damage by 40%, heals by 25% and range by 200 BUT tethers to everything in range. This rewards him for good flashes/Crowstorms into the enemy team and makes jungle camps clear faster.

Dark Wind - Damage targets in a skillshot and reduce their vision by 10/15/20/25/30% and movement by 5/10/15/20/25%. It'd have a good width, like 150-200 units and hit like a Sion Q in that it will hit targets in a rectangle rather than a cone.

Crowstorm - Reduce radius by 10-20%, Now fears all targets hit by the first proc. THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF THING HE NEEDS FOR HIS FANTASY! When the Spooky Scarecrow suddenly ults with a horde of Scarecrows, you should make everyone metaphorically crap themselves and run like hell. It may take away from Hecarim a bit but honestly, it is EXACTLY what Fiddlesticks needs.

aaronconlin1 votes

{quoted}

So you are suggesting Dark Wind work like a Linear Skillshot version of Graves Smoke Grenade? I think that'd be interesting. Also, I think Fear is currently useless in it's current iteration for Fiddlesticks. It's up to 2.25 second of very lightly walking in the opposite direction. It's not "AAHH! DO NOT WANT!" kind of scare, but more of a "Ew, get away!" Kind of scare and that doesn't work thematically. If Fiddlesticks were to become more interesting, here's what I suggest (Disclaimer: I don't claim this is balanced bit it's just my ideas for a rework):

Passive: Dread Aura - Damage to targets that have no vision or under CC increased by 10/15/20% This rewards him for good ultimates and follow-ups instead of penalizing his damage for not fear-auto-ulting.

Q: Insert spooky scary Rek'sai Tunnels here (Seriously, we need something better, how about like a Ward Jump with a retroactive cooldown based on how far you go with a two second casttime?)

Drain - I actually like how Drain works, but it doesn't help in Teamfights. Reduce the damage by 40%, heals by 25% and range by 200 BUT tethers to everything in range. This rewards him for good flashes/Crowstorms into the enemy team and makes jungle camps clear faster.

Dark Wind - Damage targets in a skillshot and reduce their vision by 10/15/20/25/30% and movement by 5/10/15/20/25%. It'd have a good width, like 150-200 units and hit like a Sion Q in that it will hit targets in a rectangle rather than a cone.

Crowstorm - Reduce radius by 10-20%, Now fears all targets hit by the first proc. THIS IS EXACTLY THE KIND OF THING HE NEEDS FOR HIS FANTASY! When the Spooky Scarecrow suddenly ults with a horde of Scarecrows, you should make everyone metaphorically crap themselves and run like hell. It may take away from Hecarim a bit but honestly, it is EXACTLY what Fiddlesticks needs.

The main thing I don't like is his ultimate making his enemies run away from him. He wants enemies to stay in range of it, not walk out

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

That's because you are thinking of his current ultimate as his primary damage tool. If the focus is less on damage but on cc it actually makes more sense. His ultimate as the primary fear tool makes perfect sense, since that is the point where the scarecrow is no longer seemingly "standing still" but actually moving and hostile. Thematically it would make sense...

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Hmmm... I kinda like the idea of turning the Q into his spooky mobility spell. But tunnels? Nah... I'd be for the multiple scarecrows idea that I wrote some posts above.

Your other ideas sound pretty solid, especially about how his current fear-skill feels... right now it's not really... terrifying, no? ^^

AbodyHUN6661 votes

What about a blink (or dash for counterplay) ability that gets enabled only when the enemy loses vision of him? Sure, ult's teleport would need to be adjusted for it, but having to drop a ward behind you while escaping him just so he won't turn into a kassadin would really add up with this wheeping angel theme. The dash could work like Ekko's dash, modifying the next basic attack or spellcast into a dash.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

I'm not sure how that goes with his theme as scarecrows are not supposed to be moving much in the first place. I added my idea of mobility to the main post, so this might be the way to go ^^

And while I like the idea of involving basic attack patterns... it's kinda hard with Fiddle's theme. Dashes, in-fight teleports... that's more something for the Riven's and Ekko's, but not for our scarecrow here. It would have to be a one time initiation-out-of-stealth move, but that's already a niche filled by the ultimate.

Unless... we turn the ult into a basic spell with less damage/AoE and the fear effect and invent a completly NEW ultimate for him. Now, THAT could work... hmmm I need to do some thinking about it. There is really no need to have the same ability on a kit two times...

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Yeah, I thought that too, 2 blinks in a kit of someone who is tied to a pole in the ground would be over the top. The ultimate though teally needs that teleport, it's really in the centre of his kit.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Somewhere in this thread another poster and I are currently working out something. The result until now is a slow on the Q and a movement speed boost on the ultimate (that now really gets enemies "running in fear" from what I have in mind).

Just look over it and tell us your opinions :D

Crowe Stalker1 votes

When I said 'Insert Spooky Scary RekSai Tunnels here' I meant it in the sense that it sounds pretty much like that to me, except they grant vision and would take a few hits but otherwise act as a mobility tool that punishes the enemy for not seeking out where you put them.

Also it would likely become his E, since Q is usually reserved for spammable spells/auto resets and E is usually reserved for Mobility or otherwise Long Cooldowns you'll ignore for upwards of ten seconds in a fight after using. W is usually Utility or a Shield effect. It's a theme I'm noticing a lot in Champion Kits with the only notable exception being Cassiopeia whose Q would better serve as a W, her Twin Fangs serve better as her Q and her Miasma best serve as an E due to it being the only non-spammable spell (bar most ultimates) in her kit.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Well, it doesn't really matter which basic spell goes on what button... first we have to tune the abilities rightm then we can decide on what to put where xD

Yes, I have admit that the tunnel metaphor might be fitting here - that way wards become an important part of counterplay to fiddle, such as "keeping an eye out for him, even if he's at the other end of the map right now". That's the presence Fiddles should have on the field ^^

junglerboy167 votes

So... Fiddlesticks is the League incarnation of a Weeping Angel?

Excuse me while I go lock all my doors and hide under my bed.

.

I love your idea of making him more creepy/unsettling/uncanny, and your idea for dark wind is really cool.

To sort of capture your idea for how he causes dread and uncannily moves whenever you aren't watching, how about make his passive work like this:

  • Dread: If Fiddlesticks' enemies have not seen him for X seconds (scales down with level, probably around 6/5/4/3), the next time they gain direct vision of him (as in within their personal vision range, not wards) they lose Y MR for the next 5 seconds, decaying by 66.67% over the duration before remaining at a lower constant value. Being seen by a ward resets the passive cooldown but does not apply the MR shred to any nearby champions

This new MR shred would be substantially stronger than it is currently, probably around 30/45/60/75 based on passive level, decaying down to 10/15/20/25.

Dark wind reducing vision is an excellent idea and later on could be a great tool in tandem with this new passive.

Drain right now is probably his most iconic ability and shouldn't be changed ( most of his jungle power comes from this sustain)

Terrify is ok. It isn't amazing in terms of gameplay, thematics, or balance, but as a single target, no damage ability, it isn't OP either.

His ult is also very strong and should stay relatively unchanged, except maybe by beefing up the VFX.

SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes

The weeping angel follows the same trope: something humanoid that is by all means not supposed to move suddenly moves - mostly towards someone with evil intentions. If you are into some really creepy stuff I recommend SCP: Contaiment Breach to you. A free to play Horror game with the main atagonist being SCP-173, a statue following the same mechanic. Too bad this game has a blinking mechanic... :P

Am am honestly not a fan of reduced MR - mostly because while stat changes are incredibly powerful on paper, they rarely translate into an actual gameplay experience. Also playing with vision/no vision for damage is more Kha'Zix's thing, not really Fiddle's - giving him some burst for starting a trade would be enough to make the encounter feel scary and dangerous.

Drain can be changed - as long it still converts enemy health to own health it works as intended. Could even be AoE (surround or aimed at ground - you could even have a nice animation of all the grass on the rift that is in that area to wither away for some time...).

Terrify is kind of... lackluster, or as another poster has described it:

Also, I think Fear is currently useless in it's current iteration for Fiddlesticks. It's up to 2.25 second of very lightly walking in the opposite direction. It's not "AAHH! DO NOT WANT!" kind of scare, but more of a "Ew, get away!" Kind of scare and that doesn't work thematically.

I'd prefer putting his fear onto the ultimate, so you can really "scare" people when suddely porting into their faces ^^

The Ecdysiast5 votes

I agree. He should have something where he stands still with a clone and catches enemies off-guard.

SaltyToplaneGoat10 votes

Well I thought of something that could work with this.

Imagine Fiddles being able to place mutiple scarecrows on the field and whenever one of these scarecrows is not under enemy team vision he can lose his current "scarecrow" and change into the next one. The spell for that could be a 4 second channel, so it can't be used for "lol you can't kill me stuff". He leaves an "empty" scarecrow behind at that position.

Those scarecrows do nothing, give medicore vision and they can be attacked.

Now, let's step this up a little. Remember what I said about dark wind before, about turning it into a vision denial tool? Now the twist: Dark Wind can now be cast from ANY scarecrow position, no matter how far away fiddle is. If he is not casting it himself the damage can be lower, but the vision block should be enough to allow him a "warp in". Now also alow it ti turn of wards temporarely and it's an awesome spell ^^

Of course for this the rest of the kit would require some changes too, but I think the result could be extremly terrifying (and awesome).

Imagine suddenly finding a scarecrow in your jungle. Do you attack it and risk fiddle going Dark Wind -> Warp in? Or do you leave the area as fast as possible, but then risk to fall behind in your jungle? A simply passive token, yet it can have such an psychological effect :D

IcyPepper3 votes

Rito, hire this man/woman.

SaltyToplaneGoat4 votes

I wish they would... I'm not writing a bachelor thesis on LoL for nothing, no? xD

Valderis Vandala1 votes

That sounds awesome, I hope riot notices it.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Valderis Vandala,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qwlFEEML,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2015-08-17T03:22:06.355+0000)

That sounds awesome, I hope riot notices it.

Well, just keep bumping it then ^^ Glad you like it ^^

Varnoc5 votes

Just drawing up a kit based on what's here at the moment:

P - Effigy - PASSIVE: Once every x seconds (reduced by CDR and level) Fiddlesticks may activate this skill to leave a lifeless Scarecrow in his current position. The Scarecrow provides vision of the immediate area, and further vision in the direction it is facing. The Scarecrow takes 5 basic attacks to destroy. Enemy minions will not attack Scarecrows. ACTIVE: Once every x seconds Fiddlesticks may channel for 3 seconds, switching places with any of his placed Scarecrows so long as enemies do not have vision of it when the channel begins. If Fiddlesticks himself is damaged during the channel, it is interrupted and half of the cooldown is refunded to him. While this ability is on cooldown, the eyes of placed Scarecrows will not glow for allies, letting them know the spell is on cooldown.

Q - Harvest - ACTIVE: Fiddlesticks hurls a crescent of sickly energy from his blade in the targeted direction x distance. The crescent deals magic damage to the first target it strikes and slows them by 35% (rough number) for x seconds. If the target is damaged by Drain, the duration of the slow is extended equal to the time they are damaged by the spell, and the slow is amplified (up to 200% of the original low) based on how long Fiddlesticks channeled Drain.

W - Drain - ACTIVE: Fiddlesticks channels for up to 4 seconds on the targeted enemy, dealing magic damage to the target and all nearby enemies (roughly the size of a jungle camp). Fiddlesticks gains health equal to x% of the damage he deals through this spell. The duration Fiddlesticks channels is modified based on the targets distance from him, the closer it is, the faster it completes, the further away, the longer it takes (duration constantly adjusts as the target moves). The full damage of the spell remains unchanged regardless of the duration of the spell. Drain extends the duration of Harvest's slow for however long it damages the afflicted target, and it increases the slow amount, up to double, over the duration of the channel.

E - Dark Wind - ACTIVE: Fiddlesticks commands a murder of crows to sweep across the ground in the targeted direction from his target, dealing magic damage to enemies struck, interrupting any channeled abilities, drastically reducing the vision of enemy units struck for a short time and applying a decaying slow over the duration of the effect. Wards struck are disabled for the duration of the ability. This spell may be cast from the location of any Scarecrow placed by Effigy, regardless of distance, and reduces the channel time to switch places with the targeted Scarecrow by 50% for 3 seconds afterwards.

R - Crowstorm - ACTIVE: Fiddlesticks channels for 1.5 seconds before appearing a short distance away with a murder of crows flocking wildly around him, causing enemies to become feared, gaining x% bonus movement speed for the duration of the fear, and dealing damage (lower than live) each second to nearby enemies for the next 3 seconds. During the duration of Crowstorm Fiddlesticks gains x% bonus movement speed while moving towards enemy champions or structures. Enemies afflicted by any kind of crowd control during the fear portion of this spell lose the bonus movement speed provided by this effect.

Will attempt to improve it as feedback is provided!

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

The passive needs a lot of tweaking. it should be something like: the moment fiddlesticks moves into the enemy team vision he deals increased damage for X seconds. His fear should be caused by his abilities directly I think...

Drain should go AoE, I agree on that, but it should remain a direct drain and not be delayed by the crows, those are a basic element of Dark wind.

To the W version of yours seems good, just add a "also disables ward for the duration" into it.

Not sure about the ult tho...

Varnoc2 votes

Where would you suggest putting the fear? If it's not on the passive, I'd think it should be on Q more than W, E, or R, as when he ports in is when he is scariest, could even make it an AOE effect since it's tied to a fixed location and has a fairly long cooldown in that case.

Would you like a targeted spell that hits all enemies in an area around the target? I was thinking the heal delay would remove some of the frustration behind current fiddle and adding some decision making to the mix, do you hold out for the extra healing you'd get for channeling longer? or do you move now to avoid that nasty spell? It also gives people a way to play around fiddle's drain, kill him before the crows return and you're golden. That being said I know that many people have gotten kills by draining with fiddlesticks in melee. Perhaps add "If Fiddlesticks is within the Area of Effect while channeling, he gains the health immediately."? Would add an additional layer to counterplay Fiddlesticks if he decides to drain a tanky champ, they can stay within range of him to keep him from healing immediately to let their allies hit him down, what do you think?

Will add the ward disable

What do you not like about the ultimate? Should it not interact with Effigy's Scarecrows, or is the 'frozen by fear' thing kinda stupid, or both even, I dunno.

Will edit when I can nail down more specifics.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Fiddlesticks is, in most of his themes, not about panic or terror, more about uneasyness and creepy presence. There is no need for him to throw that out on a basic ability. His ult pop-up is the scariest part of the kit, and therefore it only makes sense to add the fear here. But directly casting it from other scarecrows? Nah. Too strong.

Let me propose something here: After swapping scarecrows the channel time for the ultimate is reduced by X percent. It's still there, but now shorter for an easier use.

About the drain: make a short delay from where he sets the area and the energy starts forming a tether towards him. So the drain is not instant, but still consistent. As for the area bonus... I'd like to see the drain speed go up the closer fiddle is to the area: the closer he is, the faster he drains, maybe with some little bonus damage.

About the actual fear on ultimate effect: I'm in for turning this ultimate from a purely damaging tool into one that is more focussed on cc and not just in pure dmg power. His primarely abilities should be used for his damage while his ult is a massive teamfight disruptor, so he can get his other spells on...

Damn I wish I could put Effigy into his passive, but it needs some kind of activation... Then we would have a free slow for an active spell...

I wonder if that is technically possible: a champ with 5 active abilities but no passive...

Varnoc2 votes

Technically they've already done it with Azir, having 5 actives, here's what I'm thinking:

P - Effigy - PASSIVE: Once every x seconds, Fiddlesticks can create a Scarecrow at his current location (Give it a cool animation, he freezes up, then steps out of the Scarecrow in a duplicate body), granting vision of the immediate area. The Scarecrow may be destroyed by enemies with five basic attacks. If Fiddlesticks has not been seen by enemies for 10 seconds, he may switch places with any placed Scarecrow on the map after a three second channel. Fiddlesticks cannot switch places with a Scarecrow more than once every x seconds. (While Fiddlesticks cannot teleport the lights inside the heads of placed scarecrows go dim for Fiddlesticks and his team.) The time between teleports shortens as Fiddlesticks gains levels.

Q - New Skill - Not sure, base it off of the Cinematic where Fiddlesticks throws a disk at TF maybe? I think that may have just been a basic attack, but we could make it something cool i think.

W - Drain - Fiddlesticks channels for up to 5 seconds, sending a murder of crows to harass the targeted enemy and nearby enemies, dealing magic damage each second to all enemies in the area. Fiddlesticks gains health equal to a percentage of the damage dealt, The further away the target is from Fiddlesticks, the less health he gains from the damage he deals.

E - Dark Wind - Fiddlesticks commands a murder of crows to sweep across the ground in the targeted direction from his location, starting behind to and dealing magic damage. This spell drastically reduces the vision of enemy units struck for a short time and disabling Wards struck for the duration. This spell may be cast from the location of any Scarecrow placed by Effigy.

R - Crowstorm - Fiddlesticks channels for a short time before appearing at the targeted location a short distance away, causing a murder of crows to flock wildly around him for several seconds, dealing magic damage to units in the area and inflicting fear for a short time (Enemies feared in this manner walk away from Fiddlesticks very slowly). While Crowstorm persists, the area of effect of his other spells is increased by x%. If cast within 3 seconds of activating Effigy's teleport, Crowstorm channels in half the time.

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Ok, you got some things wrong. First: Fiddle can be seen while porting (or maybe not, but the next part is more important:) The targeted scarecrow must not be seen. That's why I said Dark Wind as vision denial is so important to be cast from the "empty" scarecrows.

Not sure how the activation is going then. Azir has fixed spots for his towers, Fiddles can put his scarecrows about everywhere in theory.

No idea on the new skill, gotta think of something. (Pet system including crows? Nah... Crippling/Tripping spell to slow? Wait, Fiddles has a weapon, no? How about a close ranged cuttting move, called "Harvesting" that slows? Would work well with keeping enemies in your drain...)

Drain. STOP USING CROWS FOR THE DRAIN. I TOLD YOU CROWS ARE NOT THE AESTHETIC OF THIS SPELL. Also it could cause clarity problems with dark wind. It should be some creepy green glow rising of the area and slowly floating towards Fiddles. And about the range thing... I was talking about spell duration and speed. Not actual healing amount or damage. When closer to him the spell simply works faster. More damage, but ends earlyer.

You might add a decaying slow on dark wind, would fit the mechanic I think...

Also, the ult will need some serious works. What kind of feared, terrified and panicing person do you know that runs from things that want to kill them as slowly as possible? That makes no sense. That thing should cause a team wide panic attack, similiar to the Hecarim ult but even worse. Not a "uh let's all walk slow"-irritation <_< I'm even for boosting enemy movement speed (RUN! MUAHAHAHA!), unless they are slowed by something else...

Also, scrap the bonus % damage, that's hidden power stat stuff, not the thing we need right now. What would be interesting would be a movement speed buff during the ult...

Varnoc2 votes

If Fiddle can be seen while porting, can it be interrupted, and if so, by what? Simply dealing damage? Or does he need to be interrupted via hard cc? Thinking something along the lines of "Fiddlesticks can switch places with any scarecrow enemies do not have vision of after a 3 (spitball number) seconds of channeling. If Fiddlesticks is damaged during this time by enemy units (so jungle creatures won't interrupt, as they're neutral), he stops channeling, and the cooldown of this ability is cut in half (or whatever, needs to be some kind of penalty for getting hit, gives incentive to interrupt it).

I was thinking a right click interactive kind of thing for the activation of the teleport and a click and drag style command for Dark Wind, much like Viktor's Death Ray or Rumble's The Equalizer. Don't know how tech would manage that though.

Will remove the crows from drain, did not catch it in the first reply but upon closer inspection I found it, though this came off a bit hostile I understand you are just trying to make sure I understand, I can glaze over things sometimes. Speeding up the channel time based on proximity makes more sense than modifying the healing factor, though the minimum and maximum length of the channel will need to be tweaked by balance I'm sure.

About the new ability, it doesn't make sense for a ranged character to have a melee ability like what you described. I can't think of one off of my head that has one in the game right now (but if you think of one please let me know, I'm interested now that I think about it.) Perhaps he throws a crescent of the same sickly energy he uses for Drain in a line. Could deal damage and slow the afflicted target, allowing Fiddle to catch up/drain them without making it too binary.

Right now, as I see it, Fiddle has two themes, Life Stealing magic and Scarecrows/Crows. I've been overdoing it on the crows (with trying to incorporate them into his Drain unnecessarily, Sorry!), and not focusing enough on the magic itself. What if Drain had a slow that ramped up over the channel? In every movie, television show, or book I've ever consumed, when the life of another person is being stolen, they get weak, move slower, and in general feel crappy. What if we incorporated this into Drain? It's already a powerful spell, healing fiddle while hurting the opponent, and currently it's an AOE too, but what if we put it onto the new Q? It applies a slow, and if you Drain the target, the slow is extended and amplified over the duration of the spell. How about the following:

Q - Harvest - ACTIVE: Fiddlesticks hurls a crescent of sickly energy from his blade in the targeted direction x distance. The crescent deals magic damage to the first target it strikes and slows them by 20% (rough number) for x seconds. The duration of the slow is extended for as long as Fiddlesticks damages the target with Drain. (Possible: If the slowed target is the main link of Drain, all other enemies struck by the spell are slowed by the same amount.)

This would fix Fiddle's issue with people running away at light speed when he pops in, as he want's people to stay close to him to deal as much damage as he can in as short a time as possible.

On the subject of adding a slow to Dark Wind that decays, I think it's probably feasible, given that he's currently giving up a three second targeted fear and a targeted silence, are you in favor of keeping the silence on this spell (in addition to the slow)? or would you prefer he got the slow and called it a day?

The percentage bonus on the ultimate was not damage, but the AOE of his other spells, though it's probably unnecessary.

In summary:

  • P - Effigy: He can port to scarecrows, but only so long as they aren't seen by the enemy. If he's damaged while channeling, it's interrupted. (Reasonable gate to the utility of the spell imo)
  • Q - Harvest: As described above
  • W - Drain: Remove the crows, make it a sickly green glow. The duration of the spell adjusts based on the target's proximity to Fiddlesticks as he drains.
  • E - Dark Wind: Decaying slow likely, silence maybe.
  • R - Crowstorm: Enemies in the area are scared out of their minds and take for the hills, running at full speed away from Fiddlesticks. Fiddlesticks deals less damage than live, but gains bonus movement speed for the duration of the spell.

Will update the main post after you confirm the changes :D

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Hmmm ok, interruptable by enemy damage sounds good to me, altough I'm nit sure about the cooldown penality (that's one of the things you can add if things get too op)

As for Drain: making it stronger the longer it lasts... and now combine that with my duration idea. So you can reach maximum drain easier by draining a target really close to you. You don't have to, but this tempts you as a player to really go in and risking something. I presonally like that kind of thing ^^

I am not really a fan of silences as they feel kind of... weird the most times. If it's possible with balance I think we can keep it. Maybe make it the same duration as the slow, but it's not a big thing to scrap it either I guess.

Also, you might add to R: "Enemies hit by Q are not sped up"

I think making the Q work with the drain is a good idea that adds some dynamic to the kit. How about we make the Q slow more meh but it ramps up during drain? I mean you can still leave the drain area theoretically, so it's not op...

Varnoc1 votes

Updated the main post!

  • We have Effigy as his passive now. Changed the scarecrows to have more vision in front of them than around them, as I felt that made sense, can revert if desired. Could keep track of targets by slowly turning, that would be neat (Only moves when people are not looking at it though, that would be creepy.)
  • Harvest is now his Q, it slows for roughly 35%, and is doubled over the channel of Drain (regardless of how long it takes for drain to complete).
  • Drain is no longer crow powered.
  • Dark wind can now be cast from any location, much like Viktor's Death Ray. I know we did not discuss this, so i'd be happy to change it if you'd like, but it made some sense when I thought about it, you're facing a living scarecrow, your attention is focused fully on him, then you get blindsided by a flock of crows because you weren't paying attention. It interrupts channels now, instead of silencing. Because it does not have a slow, I was thinking it would have a lengthier area of travel or a wider radius from which it can be started. Maybe it can only be cast from walls or brush instead of coming out of nowhere? Could be interesting both thematically and in terms of game-play.
  • Crowstorm now scares the crap out of people proper, they run away like sissies at full speed unless they are slowed (hello, Harvest!). He still deals damage each second after completing the channel, but it is less than live, and he gains bonus movement speed when moving towards enemy champions and structures during the duration.
SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Hmmm a few things left to consider I think before I put this up into the OP.

1.) Didn't we consider making drain AoE? Instead of targeted? And I'm not sure if it's a channel in my version, but at first we can roll with that. It might work out well...

2.) Maybe, just maybe, one can consider adding a movement speed BOOST to enemy units hit by the ult - for all that re not effected by other cc...

3.) Something for dark wind I just came up with: After using dark wind from a effigy scarecrow, the teleport-channel to that scarecrow goes faster than usually...

I like how this is going :D

Varnoc1 votes

1.) Drain, as it stands currently, is targeted, but Fiddlesticks also damages the area around the target. Did you have a ground targeted AOE in mind instead? That could work too, but I'd have to change how it interacts with harvest slightly.

2.) Movement speed on enemies not afflicted by any sort of crowd control (including the sight inhibition of dark wind I would assume) would make sense. Seeing as we're giving Fiddlesticks a movement boost as well, he can catch up with whomever he wants anyway

3.) Reasonable, I'll add it in

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

1.) Yes, I had an AoE in mind, with the same effects as we have worked out (range-speed, slow ramping up, etc.). Please modificate Q to your hearts content to go with this ^^

2.) For clarity issues I would add a decaying slow on the Dark wind, so it is an actual cc. Then it would go along with the "Runs only when not slowed" theme...

Once you confirm this to me I will add this to the OP :D

Varnoc1 votes

Changes have been made

SaltyToplaneGoat1 votes

Ohhkay, this is looking good. Two last things tho, this now only concerning drain:

1.) I'm not a fan of the slow spreading out, just keep it ramping up on the target initially hit by Q.

2.) Change "target" into "area", as it is supposed to be an AoE spell (area size I'd say jungle camp). Can be walked out, so it is recommended to hit your target with a Q first)

Sorry for requesting extra changes, but this should be the last thing before I copy it up.

Varnoc1 votes

Updated again. I don't mind the extra changes, I'd rather get it right now than later.

Did you want it to target a unit and follow it around? (Because that's what it does currently in what I have up there.) Or did you want it to target the ground and simply deal damage to units above it? Either way works, so feel free to change it when you transfer the post. I'm not 100% on what you wanted.

Changed the wording and added the general size.

Varnoc1 votes

Not sure if I responded to this comment or if the order in my viewer got messed up, but:

{quoted}

Updated again. I don't mind the extra changes, I'd rather get it right now than later.

Did you want it to target a unit and follow it around? (Because that's what it does currently in what I have up there.) Or did you want it to target the ground and simply deal damage to units above it? Either way works, so feel free to change it when you transfer the post. I'm not 100% on what you wanted.

Changed the wording and added the general size.

EvilRabbitt2 votes

Please apply for lore team.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CYUTILU0hk

(For those that don't mind sub-titles, I recommend looking up the original audio. 100x better.)

Sorgklaan2 votes

I can't get over how great this weeping angel style rework concept is.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Well, weeping angles share the same archetype: something that is not supposed to move, suddenly moves when you are not looking.

Why it's so creepy? It kinda plays on the fact that it questions your perception of reality: only the things you see are actually "real" and follow the rules of "reality", outside of that... well, there it can get scary, something Lovecraft went into a bit more detail with his stories.

Just keep bumping the thread if you like it then, maybe a red will bother to reply at some point (they are kinda active currently...)

Sorgklaan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qwlFEEML,comment-id=00140000,timestamp=2015-08-18T20:24:24.965+0000)

Well, weeping angles share the same archetype: something that is not supposed to move, suddenly moves when you are not looking.

Why it's so creepy? It kinda plays on the fact that it questions your perception of reality: only the things you see are actually "real" and follow the rules of "reality", outside of that... well, there it can get scary, something Lovecraft went into a bit more detail with his stories.

Just keep bumping the thread if you like it then, maybe a red will bother to reply at some point (they are kinda active currently...)

I do like Lovecraft. this is a bit off topic, but have you ever read The Monstrumologist? It's a gothic horror series that is inspired by Lovecraft.

Really great, the first book is great, but the second is by far the best in the series. I really recommend reading them, although I thought the third book was a bit of a flop. Maybe I would enjoy it if I read it again, though.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Hmmm I'm more familiar with the original lovecraft stuff... gonna put it on the list - for when I'm not buried in literature to media theory, game design and narrative theory... writing a thesis can really suck, I'll tell ya what...

Thank you for the recommendation tho ^^

LaceUp231 votes

He actually has a lot of counter play. He has been nerfed like he doesn't, however, and that is why you don't see him played.

SaltyToplaneGoat4 votes

Actually no - the current powerlevel of champs is simply higher (speak: "More strategic possibilities").

I lived through the glory of pick-or-ban Fiddlesticks and I can tell you that playing against it was not nice - ironically the damage was not the problem, but the extreme frustration when you are either feared, silenced or you cannot trade because drain is on. Not neccesarely broken, but strong - and extremly frustrating to play against.

Nothing of that actually abides to his theme on top of that. Maybe a little, but it's more like a general outline than a well done execution... Frustration is not his theme. That's for champions like Fizz, who was DESIGNED to be a slippery and hard to catch fuvker - the devs even admitted that this might have worked a little "too well" at some point...

Fiddlesticks is about lingering fear, the knownledge that something is out there to kill you, slowly creeping closer when you aren't looking... You know, just what I wrote above ^^

LaceUp231 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kyoki Shinkuro,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qwlFEEML,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-07-04T20:02:48.557+0000)

I lived through the glory of pick-or-ban Fiddlesticks

When was this? I've played since pre-season 3 and haven't had this WHATSOEVER. Literally. He was probably picked or banned about 10 times against me the entire season 3.

And damn, Fiddles is 24/42 win rate for junglers. This number is also a lot higher than it really should be, considering he is #1 for playerbase average games played. Meaning that of all the people that play Fiddles, they AVERAGE 231 games played with him. That is how unpopular he is. Yea, sure seems like he doesn't have any counterplay when he is in the bottom half of jungler win rates despite only being played by people that have played him a shit ton.

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Season three is a bit too late fpr that... Fiddles is an really old champ - in the orginal 40 if I remember correctly -, so I'm talking about times long past... (specifically season 1-2). His kit didn't change much since then tho, apart from that one time when they removed the randomness-element of fear.

LaceUp231 votes

So you're saying a champ doesn't have any counterplay because they were OP in season 1? Ok, guess I'm done here lol.

SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes

Indeed, we are done, but just because I realized you have zero idea how game design works.

There is a reason he was op. This reason was never changed, but quick-fixed by number tuning and slightly moved by meta changes while the underlying cause was never touched and he's still a thematical miss.

Also, quick, tell me the counterplay to an unavoidable MR-Reduce, impossible to miss long duration hard cc and an also not to miss silence? You can literally fear someone long enough to ult into their face - that's just how long it is.

Lugg1 votes

Fiddle has a few problems. The worst is his lack of waveclear. His E needs to do bonus damage to minions and monsters so he can actually clear waves with one skill like the majority of champs. Second, getting in position to ult without being seen is pretty hard. Especially against a good team who wards. The range needs to be upped to a MINIMUM of 1000. So he can pop out from corner bushes into the middle of lanes. If they did these two things, Fidd would be much more viable in the jungle and in lane.

SaltyToplaneGoat3 votes

So this would fix his current problems but would not change the problem of his theme being poorly executed.

So, ok, how can we give fiddle waveclear without making him OP AND tieing into his theme? My approach? Make the drain an AoE with a leash. Sounds complicated? Let me explain: you cast the spell on an area and deal damage there while healing. If you move to far from that small area (that is about the size of a jungle camp maybe), the spell ends.

If that version is too op one could consider making him slowed while the drain is active, but only if balance dictates it ^^

Hmmm I can see the range going up, but on the other hand the damage would suffer some serious cuts. If he can jump this far it might give some real counterplay issues... Well I'm for slight ult changes anyway (tíeing the fear aspect to it), so getting a bigger range for that is totally possible within that idea.

windwolf7771 votes

What if we're all crows deep down?

SaltyToplaneGoat2 votes

Considering how the average human looks like I'd rather wonder if we are not all really ugly scarecrows...

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