@Riot: the thornmail changes were a terrible idea

Critmaster Garen··38 votes·2,482 views

the armor scaling in particular, and here is why.

the basic thought behind changing the passive is clear. splitting up the passive into a % damage return and a flat damage component was supposed to make the item work better against heavy attack speed/on hit builds. like devourer junglers and attack speed carries, and even magic damage dealing carries Vayne Kalista Kayle etc.

this in itself was not a bad idea. the item would be as effective against crit heavy builds as against on-hit builds and not punish a particular type of carry heavier than the other.

having the flat damage return scale with armor was supposed to make it more effective on champions who itemized specifically into armor and to survive physical damage.

but here is the problem with the second part. the armor scaling on the item creates extreme edge cases of anti auto attack/armor heavy tanks like Malphite Rammus and technically Taric

these champions are geared towards achieving much higher armor values than most other tanks and fighters in the game and have additional tools to counter auto attacks. a full build malphite can achieve more than 600 armor, while most other tanks and fighters will get around 250 to 300 armor even when itemizing heavily into it.

in fact in my last malphite games just before the end of season 5, the old masteries allowed me to almost accomplish 800 armor by lategame in some of my games, with health values around 4000 health. (2 or 3 randuins stacking for raw stats and crit damage reduction).

what does this mean for thornmail? well, if the item was good on any regular tank or fighter, it would be absolutely **insane ** on one of those three. the nature of thornmails passive itself already makes it better with increased armor in your inventory. the additional armor scaling on the flat damage return portion of the passive only amplifies this problem. so the thornmail in its current shape has to be balanced around these heavy armor scaling tanks, which makes the item feel almost useless on anyone but those three.

i think thornmail needs a really good look over, and its scaling changed to be less armor dependent and overall much more effective on other champions.

especially with the addition of extra lifesteal on items like item 3139 item 3156 and the introduction of item 3812 the amount of lifesteal carries can stack up is almost comical right now. it doesnt help that two of those items are adding a noticable amount of mr which further negates thornmails damage return.

maybe instead of making the passive scale with bonus armor, it might be a better idea to have it scale with bonus health which is more of a universal defensive stat. and even the difference between heavy health stacking tanks and fighters like Chogath or DrMundo to regular health stackers isnt as large as the difference in armor between a regular tank and someone like Malphite

tl;dr: thornmail is basically trash on anyone but malphite and rammus after its changes. because if it was any better on other champs it would be broken on those two.

it needs to get fixed.

34 Comments

The Illithid3 votes

I think the simple solution would be to cap it at a healthy value and decrease the amount of armor necessary to hit the cap. If they never want it to go above 25% damage return, cap it there and after you hit 250 armor, you're maxed and get no further damage return benefit. If they thin 40% is the healthy place, then after 250 armor, you get the 40%. That way it is balanced so that anyone who itemizes heavily into armor gets the maximum benefit, without being broken on Rammus and Malphite. Instead, they get the benefit of hitting the cap earlier in the game, so they still don't totally lose out.

Jacknife2 votes

Sion + your item 3075 = FE FI FO FUM! I SMELL THE BLOOD OF A LOWLY CARRY! And then he'll be nerfed to useless. again.

Binding it to one stat like that will almost guarantee at least one champion will abuse it (see Cinderhulk). Maybe make it scale off of armor and mr, like old randuins omen, so only actual tanks would be the one's to use it optimally?

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

Sion + your item 3075 = FE FI FO FUM! I SMELL THE BLOOD OF A LOWLY CARRY! And then he'll be nerfed to useless. again.

Binding it to one stat like that will almost guarantee at least one champion will abuse it (see Cinderhulk). Maybe make it scale off of armor and mr, like old randuins omen, so only actual tanks would be the one's to use it optimally?

ok, but usually even extreme cases like sion or cho dont get more than 4500 health in a game. while other health stackers or tanks usually get around 4000.

with warmorgs being one of the items it will probably be less.

what im saying is, the difference between champions like sion and regular tanks is not as crazy as a full armor malphite who gets about double, maybe more armor than everyone else who really invests in the stat.

unless were talking about 50 minute games where sion farms more than 1k health, which almost never happens.

the problem is, that malphite is just not a good baseline for the balance of thornmail. even if they would use sion as a baseline for a health scaling thornmail im confident, that there wouldnt be such a gigantic gap in effectiveness on other champions like there is now.

Jacknife3 votes

I'm not saying you're wrong, with Thornmail the way it is it only benefits the champions you mentioned. However, having it favor health over armor isn't the solution.

Look at the juggernauts, they're the prime example. The whole point of giving them their stat buffs, the new items, and their raw damage and immobility was so they could stack HEALTH. That is their defense, huge amounts of health with decent levels of armor/mr, allowing them to be able to tank fairly well, but still melt faster than tanks when focused. Now imagine that scenario with your item 3075 , they'd have roughly 300-500 less health depending which item they're forgoing, for plus 100 armor, and a passive that discourages attacking the owner that scales on all the health they already bought. As if DrMundo wasn't hard enough to kill already. What you're suggesting would turn the entire game on its head in favor of health stacking.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

I'm not saying you're wrong, with Thornmail the way it is it only benefits the champions you mentioned. However, having it favor health over armor isn't the solution.

Look at the juggernauts, they're the prime example. The whole point of giving them their stat buffs, the new items, and their raw damage and immobility was so they could stack HEALTH. That is their defense, huge amounts of health with decent levels of armor/mr, allowing them to be able to tank fairly well, but still melt faster than tanks when focused. Now imagine that scenario with your item 3075 , they'd have roughly 300-500 less health depending which item they're forgoing, for plus 100 armor, and a passive that discourages attacking the owner that scales on all the health they already bought. As if DrMundo wasn't hard enough to kill already. What you're suggesting would turn the entire game on its head in favor of health stacking.

i dont know. maybe health sclaing isnt the right answer. but the item needs to be made more useful for other champs than malphite and rammus. something needs to change with the passive scaling.

Jacknife4 votes

Agreed. They tried to make Thornmail a tank-exclusive, and while they didn't technically fail, it's a horrible item now for all but 3 (maybe soon to be 2). ANSWER FOR YOUR CRIMES RITO!!!

kasfas1 votes

Ah, the glorious powerfarming games where you get 1.2k Hp at 45 minutes.

Thornmail NEEDS this change!!!

I need to get da epic Sion build:

Cinderhulk, titanic, warmogs, pd, thornmail, dmp.

Spoofghoul1 votes

Nah for sion to abuse it that heavy he would have to farm for 50 minutes . . .

these days games are decided between matchmaking and 10 minutes into the game sooooooooooooooooo

Alos sions base health and armor are very low so if he falls behind that healthstacking isnt going to be so powerfull because you get zoned away from farm.

Meanwhile if you pull ahead your minions will push all waves for you leaving you with less farm to healthstack aswell

so nope i dont think sion would be a problem in such a case.

A Miss Fortune2 votes

I don't think Thornmail will ever be a balanced/healthy item.

It discourages Marksmen for doing well and punishes them heavily. If Thornmail was strong then someone like Shen, Poppy, Gnar, Jax, etc could very easily abuse it. Not only does the Marksman deal less damage, but they also take considerably a lot more damage. (Even 300 - 400 damage is a lot, typically 1/4 of an average ADC's max base health). That's my main concern about Thornmail ever being "strong". Bruisers/Juggernauts will very easily abuse it and it will still be mediocre on Tanks.

There needs to be an item that counters fed Marksmen specifically because Armor in general counters Bruisers and Assassins. Marksmen however are glass cannons and have a ton of sustained damage meaning that Armor is a lot less effective and stacking Armor is a terrible idea because one item will negate 45% of your Bonus Armor. I've always like how Randuin's Omen as a very unique feature that lowers the amount of Critical Damage you take, so I was thinking that Thornmail be changed into an item that lowers incoming Critical Damage by -30% or something while maintaining it's current Armor and cost.

Yaskamasandwich1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qpqAFfIZ,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-01-29T22:21:47.319+0000)

I don't think Thornmail will ever be a balanced/healthy item.

It discourages Marksmen for doing well and punishes them heavily. If Thornmail was strong then someone like Shen, Poppy, Gnar, Jax, etc could very easily abuse it. Not only does the Marksman deal less damage, but they also take considerably a lot more damage. (Even 300 - 400 damage is a lot, typically 1/4 of an average ADC's max base health). That's my main concern about Thornmail ever being "strong". Bruisers/Juggernauts will very easily abuse it and it will still be mediocre on Tanks.

There needs to be an item that counters fed Marksmen specifically because Armor in general counters Bruisers and Assassins. Marksmen however are glass cannons and have a ton of sustained damage meaning that Armor is a lot less effective and stacking Armor is a terrible idea because one item will negate 45% of your Bonus Armor. I've always like how Randuin's Omen as a very unique feature that lowers the amount of Critical Damage you take, so I was thinking that Thornmail be changed into an item that lowers incoming Critical Damage by -30% or something while maintaining it's current Armor and cost.

^ This. The problem is not Thornmail it self or it being on tanks, it's with the case of Juggernauts + Bruisers + Fighters abusing it. It was nerfed to this state with the Juggernauts release for a reason. A Malphite Rammus and Taric with Thornmail is scary, but imagine Darius with a working Thornmail and item 3009 item 3742 running straight at you. He'd be unkillable, unkitable, and dealing tons of damage without even touching you. No Thornmail is sadly unhealthy this day and age and not because of tanks, but because of other classes abusing it.

Meep Man1 votes

Honestly, Thornmail's passive doesnt need buffs. It just needs more diverse use. Allow me to explain.

item 3072 Extremely general item with powerful stats. Lots of life steal and gives a shield that can achieve multiple purposes.

Thornmail meanwhile only does one thing and gives a lot of one stat. That's it.

Spoofghoul1 votes

I like this idea but how about

dealing 15% of attacks damage in return

And 15% armor 15% of mr and 2% of the wielders max health

will be a net damage increase for most champions but thats something the item needs anyway

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

I like this idea but how about

dealing 15% of attacks damage in return

And 15% armor 15% of mr and 2% of the wielders max health

will be a net damage increase for most champions but thats something the item needs anyway

This would make it absolutely crazy on Rammus, since he gains massive amounts of both armor and mr with his Curl.

The problem with Thornmail is, and always has been, that it is a non-interactive item. Not only that, it actively discourages people from focusing you. It was better on champions who needed one armor item to give ADCs a little less bite. It was situational, sure. But it did its job. The new Thorn is still non-interactive, but on top of that it's really only a good pick on three champions.

What Thorn needs is something that makes it more of a threat. Something that makes it so ignoring a Thorn user is a bad idea.

Totally remove the armor-based portion of the damage return. Instead, give it a magic damage bleed that procs OnHit. Have it stack and refresh with each hit. Because let's be honest here. Some guy shoulder checking you with armor covered in spikes is going to mess you up.

alfavhunter1 votes

Solution make it scale with BASE armor/mr/hp

Tanks typically have high defensive stats as a baseline so even though there will be a cut off point of scaling for all base stats, it would allow this item to be tuned to be better for tanks than anyone else

For example for a lvl 18 tank the damage return per AA would be ~150 for a bruiser it would be ~100 due to the base stats they carry and having more armor and hp from items also means they need to AA you more

For example let's say thornmail now did a return of 40 true damage + 30% your base armor, 30% your MR and 1% your total hp

This would exclude the item from being very good on bruisers but make it great on most tanks (with an exception of thresh who's base armor is trash and doesn't "scale" in the same way other base armor does)

Nagoh Shan5 votes

Base defensive stats are actually quite random.

For example at level 18 Lux, Tahm, Mundo, and Kat all have the same base armor.

alfavhunter1 votes

That's going to be changed a bit soon with the changes coming around

Adc are done

Mages and assassins are receiving the next tune up

As for tahm armor being low, it's because he gets 2 health pools, but people ignore his base stats when they scream op about him (he's good 1v1 but not so much after that)

Slamurai Jack1 votes

Thornmail was too good before. Enemy team has crit based auto attackers on it? Just slide in a mere 2100 gold item into your build and you now have an enormous advantage against those champions. Even if that thornmail was your only defensive item, you pretty much beat any auto reliant champion by default simply by having it in your inventory. The balancing on the new version might need some work but is still conceptually far better than the old thornmail where literally any champion could just build it to shut down any crit reliant champion.

SoMNia1 votes

Okay, first, Vayne and Kalista don't do magic damage. They do each have damage that is not on-hit physical damage, but it's not magic damage either.

That aside, what is it that you expect Thornmail to do, that it's "trash" for not doing? Depending on conditions, it requires roughly twice as much life steal as the damage return rate (on average) to break even. People did the math, and the old version required ~60% lifesteal to not kill yourself by hitting the tank. Now, you need over 30% — which, yes, you can get, but very few ADCs normally have room for that in their build (one example being Kalista).

The amount of life steal carries can stack is comical? Well, yes, it IS comical to think they would stack up life steal like that when they could (should) be adding crit, attack speed, and/or armor penetration. It's comical to think they should have to, simply in order not to kill themselves by attacking. The old Thornmail caused carries to kill themselves before the tank wearing it could kill them, and that is not okay. DPS is supposed to beat tank, not the other way around. Right now, Thornmail is a deterrent for attacking the tank in the middle of a teamfight, which is appropriate. It is not balanced around full build Malphite. That is an outlier case. It is balanced around all the other cases, where you called it "trash". So I ask again, what is it that you expect Thornmail to do?

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

Okay, first, Vayne and Kalista don't do magic damage. They do each have damage that is not on-hit physical damage, but it's not magic damage either.

That aside, what is it that you expect Thornmail to do, that it's "trash" for not doing? Depending on conditions, it requires roughly twice as much life steal as the damage return rate (on average) to break even. People did the math, and the old version required ~60% lifesteal to not kill yourself by hitting the tank. Now, you need over 30% — which, yes, you can get, but very few ADCs normally have room for that in their build (one example being Kalista).

The amount of life steal carries can stack is comical? Well, yes, it IS comical to think they would stack up life steal like that when they could (should) be adding crit, attack speed, and/or armor penetration. It's comical to think they should have to, simply in order not to kill themselves by attacking. The old Thornmail caused carries to kill themselves before the tank wearing it could kill them, and that is not okay. DPS is supposed to beat tank, not the other way around. Right now, Thornmail is a deterrent for attacking the tank in the middle of a teamfight, which is appropriate. It is not balanced around full build Malphite. That is an outlier case. It is balanced around all the other cases, where you called it "trash". So I ask again, what is it that you expect Thornmail to do?

Those calculations are true on paper. However on pratice, an ADC will have crits (which will double the amount of health regained by lifesteal) as well as magic resistance (from items like item 3139 item 3102 item 3026) which allow them to reduce Thornmail's damage and thus they require much less lifesteal than what the calculations suggest. In addition, some ADCs are capable of bypassing Thornmail's damage with their abilities or on-hit effects - for example, Vayne, Lucian, Graves, etc.

Thornmail sucks now because unless used on Malphite, Rammus, or Taric, it rarely does what it is supposed to do - counter an ADC's lifesteal.

SoMNia1 votes

Crits also double the amount of damage reflected, because it's based on actual (pre-mitigation) damage dealt, not AD. And an ADC is not likely to have more than ~80 MR. That was accounted for when we all talked about this at the time Thornmail was changed. Thornmail DOES counter an ADC's life steal, to an extent, but it shouldn't do more than that. If it does, then an ADC is required to build so much of it that they don't have room in their build to actually do their job.

Suppose a 1k damage crit gets reduced to 280 by 400 armor (320 bonus, 256 effective after LDR/Mo-Re). The attacker heals 56 with Bloodthirster. The attacker also takes (150+80)*(100/180)=128 magic damage. Look at that. A normal amount of life steal is countered by a wide margin using Thornmail.

Did I misunderstand? Does a critical hit actually double your effective life steal? Then 112-128 = STILL COUNTERED. This was established back when the new Thornmail was released. Come off it already.

Edit: You know what? I'm sorry, those numbers aren't really in line with the AD item rework. Most ADCs can only crit for around 7-800, and armor is lower, too, so...800 damage crits, 350 armor. 243 actual damage, 48 heal, 104 magic damage returned. The exact numbers don't affect it much, because it's all proportional.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Crits also double the amount of damage reflected, because it's based on actual (pre-mitigation) damage dealt, not AD. And an ADC is not likely to have more than ~80 MR. That was accounted for when we all talked about this at the time Thornmail was changed. Thornmail DOES counter an ADC's life steal, to an extent, but it shouldn't do more than that. If it does, then an ADC is required to build so much of it that they don't have room in their build to actually do their job.

Suppose a 1k damage crit gets reduced to 280 by 400 armor (320 bonus, 256 effective after LDR/Mo-Re). The attacker heals 56 with Bloodthirster. The attacker also takes (150+80)*(100/180)=128 magic damage. Look at that. A normal amount of life steal is countered by a wide margin using Thornmail.

Did I misunderstand? Does a critical hit actually double your effective life steal? Then 112-128 = STILL COUNTERED. This was established back when the new Thornmail was released. Come off it already.

a) critical strikes with warlords adds up to 25% lifesteal to the hit. so someone with bloodthirster and warlods already gets up to 45% lifesteal when he crits.

b) this season youre not gonna hit 400 armor realistically with fighters and tanks unless the specific three i mentioned. 250 to 300 is a more realistic value. this already includes thornmails bonus.

now include armor pen to the actual hit.

c) now include mercurials + bloodthirsters lifesteal, the extra mr and windspeakers resistance bonus from a support.

ive literally seen an ashe lifesteal through 300 armor + thornmail without efford. she completely regenerated her health in a handfull of hits.

SoMNia1 votes

I did include arpen and MR. But you know what, let's be more generous to the ADC. 300 armor, assuming about 80 base. Lord Dominik's Regards reduces that to 201, so let's call it 200 effective armor. Scimitar and Bloodthirster? Okay, 150 bonus AD and 30% life steal. What else? IE, LDR, something Zealous. 360 total AD, 900 damage IE crits 50% of the time, increased to 1035 by LDR. This build is lacking defensively, but we'll go with it. That's 30 base MR, 35 from Scimitar, 15 from Locket/Banner aura, and 11 from Windspeaker. Total 91.

That's a 345 effective damage crit, healing for 190 on Warlord's trigger, 103 otherwise (and that's only crits, with 50% chance). The damage returned is 110 after MR (see, you need MORE than 30% life steal to break even). That's a full build, full offense ADC with 7.4k gold and a mastery sunk into life steal, and you want to completely shut down their life steal with one item that costs less than a third of what they paid? Forget it. You already eliminated 2/3 of their damage and all of their itemized life steal with armor alone. If you think a full build tank should shut down a full build ADC (and support!) without help, you're kind of missing the point of an ADC.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Okay, first, Vayne and Kalista don't do magic damage. They do each have damage that is not on-hit physical damage, but it's not magic damage either.

i know. thats why i said magic damage dealing carries (referring to kayle) and attack speed/on hit carries. vayne and kallista play a lot around attack speed and on hit effects.

i expect thornmail to at least be able to cancel out the enemies lifesteal. right now the effect is not noticable at all UNLESS youre 600 armor malphite.

bloodthirster and mercurial is all that it takes to completely ignore the damage return right now and lifesteal through the thornmail like crazy, against any other fighter or tank with the item. bloodthirster and mercurial is 30% lifesteal. dont forget tht warlords also adds 25% lifesteal to critical strikes. and another 2% from masteries.

the item should at least force the ad carry to switch targets for a moment, to lifesteal back up on another target. giving you some breathing room to reposition or get out of his range.

HayRoss1 votes

It wasn't a bad idea, just poorly executed

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

It wasn't a bad idea, just poorly executed

the general change to a % damage return plus flat value was not a bad change.

the armor scaling was the bad idea, and what screwed up the execution. yes.

HayRoss1 votes

How was the concept of Armor scaling a bad idea?

Owntrolf1 votes

Thornmail would be better if it was just a passive :>

I would just stack a bunch

protoss nub1 votes

armor means nothing any more with item 3036 item 3153 Vayne item 3142

Widder881 votes

[{quoted}](name=protoss nub,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qpqAFfIZ,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-01-30T00:41:34.553+0000)

armor means nothing any more with item 3036 item 3153 Vayne item 3142

Ghostblade gets useless if you buy armor.

DarkRitual1 votes

Part 1: Drop the armor by a good bit (perhaps half?), and have it reflect a smaller set % of ALL physical damage (including from abilities). Also make it deal physical damage. This makes it less amazing on the people who already stack armor, but becomes much more useful at doing what thornmail does.

Part 2: Add a MR item that does the same thing for MR and magic damage reflection. Mirror Mail

Part 3: Both items would have the same unique passive: Damage Reflection. They would not stack, so you could not get both to reflect a % of all damage.

Lower raw defenses makes it less absurd on people who already stack armor, and make it's defensive ability on par with other items. It would compete more with other items, but has a unique desirable effect. Similar defensive stats with varied effects? Sounds like item diversity to me. The amount of on-hit effects, and the current dominance of caster-based marksmen has made Thornmail less and less desirable. Even against AA junglers, Devourer and Rageblade rip through you before thornmail has made any effect. Put any lifesteal on them and your thornmail might as well just be a Doran's Shield.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

As I said many times, it should have had an AR, MR and hp scaling.

LankPants1 votes

I think they should leave Thornmail's damage where it is now without the armour scaling and add a new passive "Receiving a critical hit applies Grievous Wounds to your attacker for 3 seconds". You now have an anti ADC item for tanks to build.

Widder881 votes

Thornmail should apply grievous wounds.

kasfas1 votes

Sion approves of the change to make it bonus health.

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