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@Riot I feel like we're not executing the tank idea correctly.

LegacyDAP··4 votes·877 views

In my opinion I think we're heading in a different direction than any of us expected it to be.

What I thought tanks would become: "Tanks need to be able to soak damage more for the team, and have some good point and click cc to stop carries when they're out of position, but they shouldn't be able to tons of damage with CC, and build tank too."

Now I'm not saying tanks shouldn't be able to build damage, but I feel like a lot of tanks have a lot of built in damage to their kit which ruins the giant sponge aspect. Skarner is a great example of this. He was reworked with a lot of built in damage into his kit, but since he can also build tank he turns into this damaging, CC, Tank monster. Skarner literally carries the whole package that everybody wants while building tank. I'm not saying only tanks can do this, and be safe and healthy, but it feels like a lot of this is revolving around them, and that's why we have such stronger champions now like Fiora.

I feel like we're letting these newer champions be able to do too much. This especially includes the tanks.

So my question for you Riot is what direction do you think we're going in with the tank meta? Because this is not what I had expected.

30 Comments

luckmallory3 votes

I think you dont get the difference between a bruiser Garen Darius Skarner Gnar

and a tank Rammus Malphite DrMundo Nautilus

LegacyDAP2 votes

They sure do act like tanks. Just in my opinion. And our tanks act like lesser bruisers. Tank as much as them, and don't do nearly as much damage.

Decrit2 votes

The last batch of changes was aimed to bruisers, not to tanks :P

LegacyDAP3 votes

Well they do the job like a tank, and the damage like a carry. I guess that's what a juggernaut is, but it isn't balanced that's for sure.

Decrit2 votes

I' ma fraid they do not.

The last batch of bruisers, juggernauts, lack many thing that other champions have: while they are able to do damage that is the only thing they bring to a match, generically they lack many meaningful ccs, speed boosts, engages and so no. Not everyone, and lot at the same manner.

In order to function well they need to spend a bit in damaging items, depending on how much natural tankyness they have, but they can' t last like a true tank ( mundo, volibear, amumu and so on) and if they build too much armor they are useless because they do not deal enough damage. The damage they do is by any mean paragonable to a carry, i take that as a joke, and they can' t provude the sheer utility that a tank can bring.

LegacyDAP2 votes

This argument is too ridiculous.

Decrit2 votes

shrug well i tried. language barrier is an issue to me, but i can assure you that, balance aside, the concept around it is more than fine.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Well they do the job like a tank, and the damage like a carry. I guess that's what a juggernaut is, but it isn't balanced that's for sure.

tanks are beefy cc machines that peel, initiate and lock up one or multiple targets. nautilus, leona, sion, amumu, cho.

garen, darius, skarn, and morde are bruisers. what people dont seem to understand is that theyre supposed to carry. so if theyre doing the damage of an adc while being extremely beefy theyre doing their job.

their downside is that they can get outplayed by cc and mobility to a point where they dont even reach the enemy and apply their damage. it becomes a game of kiting for the enemy team, and enabling them to get into melee for their teammates. just as adc need to be protected and enabled to fight.

theyre basically supposed to be similar to nasus. a slow moving wall of death. one thing that ive repeatedly seen is that no one seems to adjust their item builds to deal with these champions.

in my most recent game with garen, i was just able to stack tons of health, because no one on the enemy team bothered building a bork. and they had 3 auto attackers.

its not just the bork damage that would have helped them, but the slow active aswell. i havent seen an attempt to build a randuins on their frontliners either. the slow can easily block these champions off from their own backline.

in another instance ive had a lot of trouble getting anywhere in a fight, as the enemy vayne and sona did a pretty solid job of kiting me around and peeling me of whoever i tried to attack.

Lugg2 votes

That is the biggest problem with balance in the game. You have some champions that are very tanky and do very good damage or champions that do tons of damage and are very hard to kill from either high mobility, shield, or tankyness.

Either one of these situations are bad for the game, since you can't beat a champion that will easily kill you before you can kill them.

LegacyDAP1 votes

That's basically the point I'm trying to make. Anything that can put out more damage will win, but I feel like everything has revolved around build tank and deal damage. Ekko is also a great example. He can duel nearly everyone while still being tanky, because he's got so much in-kit damage.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

That's basically the point I'm trying to make. Anything that can put out more damage will win, but I feel like everything has revolved around build tank and deal damage. Ekko is also a great example. He can duel nearly everyone while still being tanky, because he's got so much in-kit damage.

hes an entirely different type of champion, but a good example of what garen, skarn, darius and morde not are.

they dont have utility, or mobility built into their kits like ekko. a well played ekko if played as an assassin can basically kite these champions around indefinitely.

he can set up his team with a large aoe cc, jump into the enemy backline and assassinate someone, then get out with his ult. instead of being naturally tanky he has loads of tools to apply his damage and support his team. tools that these 4 champions dont have and theyre almost completely team reliant to get to their desired target.

the same is true for a lot of assassins, mages and even adc. cait, tristana, jinx have high amounts of utility built into their kits that can keep enemies at distance while applying their damage, or get into position to deal damage.

LegacyDAP1 votes

Skarner No Utility

Pick one.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Skarner No Utility

Pick one.

his ultimate is powerful but does require him to get into melee range. which requires him to walk up to his target or at least burn flash.

its not comparable to the long range initiate of a sion, malphite or sejuani.

LegacyDAP1 votes

Man I wonder how hard that is with a MS shield buff, and a slow that stuns when hit. Not to mention Phage is a must.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Man I wonder how hard that is with a MS shield buff, and a slow that stuns when hit. Not to mention Phage is a must.

its still just a movement speed buff in a game full of champions with unrestricted mobility tools and ranged cc abilities.

try running up to a cait and have a net thrown in your face, and see how difficult it is.

LegacyDAP1 votes

It's like her one escape, and it's easy to dodge. Skarner will probably have a phage, and a randuin's omen. At that point Skarner should be able to easily punish her if she's caught out, and wasted her e.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

It's like her one escape, and it's easy to dodge. Skarner will probably have a phage, and a randuin's omen. At that point Skarner should be able to easily punish her if she's caught out, and wasted her e.

and the traps? the phage and the randuins only help you once youre in range.

and what about a tristana whos has w and r? and what about their supports? youre just making it sound simpler than it is. in reality an entire team will block you off their squishies while theyre dealing damage to you.

if they would really be that broken, they would have a close to 100% winrate and not just above 50%.

Lugg1 votes

Ekko doesn't even have to build tanky. He is so stupidly mobile, he rarely takes damage anyway. Plus his ult is the biggest F U button in the game.

LegacyDAP1 votes

Can agree. I maining Ekko jungle until it's gutted. May I also say I climbed 2 divisions with it.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Can agree. I maining Ekko jungle until it's gutted. May I also say I climbed 2 divisions with it.

then honestly, i dont get your point. you should have no problems with the reworked champions and you should be used to kiting them around.

ekkos ult is probably the biggest counter to darius and garens ults, as he can put them on cooldown and dodge them at the same time.

your q alone allows you to kite them around without a realistic chance to get to you, unless they really surprise you by jumping on you from an unwarded area. but doesnt that go for most champions?

LegacyDAP1 votes

My point is all of these champions are strong? Why do you think I'm playing Ekko right now? Because I'm good with him? Sure, but the bigger thing is that he's good right now, and if I want to win games I'm playing something that's good right now.

I used to main Kassadin after silence was taken off of him, so I didn't feel like a shit lord for playing him.

But I feel just as much of a shitlord now playing champions like Ekko and Gnar.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

My point is all of these champions are strong?

thats exactly what the rework was supposed to accomplish.

granted, skarner was pretty broken for 2 weeks and they had to hotfix him. but otherwise these champions werent so much of a problem that they have to get the hammer. i still dont see a problem with them being strong. and garen was on the srong side but already tuned down.

darius and morde are being tweaked. imo they will be in a good spot, just as garen and skarner are now.

i dont understand why its ok for champs like lee sin to dominate an aspect of the game for 3 years and when those 4 champions that when compared to similar champs have been underwhelming for nearly their entire existence are strong enough to see competitive play, there is suddenly a problem.

its not like they are pick or ban status. theyre pretty much just good champions to pick into certain teams.

with skarn more generally being good, since hes a jungler.

Lugg1 votes

I'm sure I could climb easily with him too, but I feel dirty when I play him since there isn't much challenge.

LegacyDAP1 votes

That's the point. He can stop late game carries easily, and he has an instant "nope fuck you and your outplay" button.

However, I do find him extremely fun, so I'll play him nerfed or not.

Embertine2 votes

http://iliketowastemytime.com/sites/default/files/m1-abrams-tank-firing-hd-wallpaper.jpg

The M1 Abrahms is one of the world's greatest tanks. Able to go 65mph while having a speed govener installed, and much faster than that without one, it boasts arguably the worlds greatest tank armor, able to withstand great amounts of punishment, while also being able to deal out just as much with its 120mm smooth bore cannon.

If we want to make tanks in league to be actual tanks, they would literally wipe out all champion diversity as they would be the most armored, heaviest hitting, and fastest champions in the game. Tanks in league are fine the way they are right now in my opinion.

LegacyDAP1 votes

I'm talking about DrMundo Taric Trundle Some real tanks. I don't even think Trundle is super tanky, because all of his damage, but he isn't like a walking cc damage machine

Embertine1 votes

lol! You didn't have to downvote. My point was that I haven't had any problems with tanks. To be honest most tanks have to build as fighters in order to deal out any decent damage.

LegacyDAP1 votes

Tanks should not have damage is my point. They should have CC and more armor to counter these items we have. item 3153 item 3035

Audiotap1 votes

I'd just like to point out that in a real war, people are trying to IMMOLATE the enemy. This however, being a game, needs balance. If league were a war, Nasus's q would 2 shot enemies... wait... rito? But the point is that the idea of a game is to have fun and if skarner and darius are running around insta-gibbing everyone, then what's the point of playing?

PROJECT Bear1 votes

Thank you for your comment.

in the next patch, Garen will have a reworked passive: in addition to his current passive, Garen will also be Immune to Ban during Draft Phase.

RIto

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