@meddler: can garen get the warwick treatment?

Critmaster Garen·Feb 3, 2017·24 votes·2,343 views

i feel like you guys struck the perfect balance between making him a beginner friendly champ who is easy to pick up, while at the same time giving him enough tools so that experienced players have a lot of room to gain mastery on him, and can outplay their opponents.

since the removal of the animation cancelling on garens q, and spin, he never felt like there is much you can do to separate yourself from beginners on the champion anymore.

the best you can do is learn when its optimal to ult non villains (which actually does take a LOT of experience), and how to play around enemy cooldown windows. but playing him always feels like up to your enemy to make mistakes for you to be successful, rather than you being able to make successful plays on your own.

(seriously though, decisive strikes animation time is atrocious)

37 Comments

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20179 votes

actually, what if cancelling his spin would refund a portion of the base cooldown on the ability instead of time left?

enough so that if you were to cancel the spin after like 2 seconds, to weave in an auto attack, or a decisive strike, at 40% cdr it would refund enough to reactivate it like a second later.

i dont know if that would even work, but making him work around his spin cancels to allow him to spin more overall, feels like were on the right track.

Big LincolnFeb 3, 20171 votes

good idea whered you come up with it

HammermancerFeb 3, 20174 votes

Some really quick thoughts, probably not the best thoughts but just food for thought

Q: now increases damage the further you move in a relatively straight line towards the target, and increases speed by moving in a straight line, (Minor turns are fine but about facing will reduce the additional movespeed and damage... like a momentum charge type thing

W: Increases it's value of resistance when used at lower hp than at higher hp

E/R untouched

ability chaining between q and e

If Q is used before E then E will slow the target

if E is used before Q then Q will deal a little bonus damage (I originally was gonna say reduce the target's damage output but that might be overkill)

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeRitWnz,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-02-03T02:46:03.144+0000)

Some really quick thoughts, probably not the best thoughts but just food for thought

Q: now increases damage the further you move in a relatively straight line towards the target, and increases speed by moving in a straight line, (Minor turns are fine but about facing will reduce the additional movespeed and damage... like a momentum charge type thing

W: Increases it's value of resistance when used at lower hp than at higher hp

E/R untouched

ability chaining between q and e

If Q is used before E then E will slow the target

if E is used before Q then Q will deal a little bonus damage (I originally was gonna say reduce the target's damage output but that might be overkill)

it kinda does already make a difference if you open a trade with q and follow with e, or if you open with e and follow with q.

the armor shred on the spin amplifies the q damage. but opening with q makes it easier to stick during the spin.

i still feel there could be some improvement.

HammermancerFeb 3, 20171 votes

well what about making them the effect of cancelling one prematurely?

OK so the synergy thing

your Q builds momentum increasing your speed and Base ad by 5/10/15/20/25% to 10/20/30/40/50% based on distance travelled for the next ability that lands for a few seconds (This makes an IBG proc really cool on garen) But if you use E instead of landing the AA then E gets the bonus AD instead of the Q

Ok so E, if you use E then for each tick remaining when you hit q (Which will cancel the cast of E) the target hit by the empowered aa from Q will deal 2% reduced damage to you for 1 second per tick... so that's a maximum of 10 ticks total, you wont be able to cancel the first tick so that's 9 ticks, 18% damage reduction.. that's really good.

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=T3H UB3RN07,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeRitWnz,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2017-02-03T02:57:34.241+0000)

well what about making them the effect of cancelling one prematurely?

OK so the synergy thing

your Q builds momentum increasing your speed and Base ad by 5/10/15/20/25% to 10/20/30/40/50% based on distance travelled for the next ability that lands for a few seconds (This makes an IBG proc really cool on garen) But if you use E instead of landing the AA then E gets the bonus AD instead of the Q

Ok so E, if you use E then for each tick remaining when you hit q (Which will cancel the cast of E) the target hit by the empowered aa from Q will deal 2% reduced damage to you for 1 second per tick... so that's a maximum of 10 ticks total, you wont be able to cancel the first tick so that's 9 ticks, 18% damage reduction.. that's really good.

i think if there was an additional effect added to his q, it should be something like Talon q or Warwick q

in that it behaves differently when activated while youre already in melee range of your opponent, and when youre using it as a gapcloser.

The Lost MarblesFeb 3, 20174 votes

Can we remove the villain mechanic altogether so it doesn't take up a bunch of power budget? It's the sort of mechanic you'd think would be on a diver, but Garen is (supposed to be) a juggernaut.

His ult can keep the villain graphic as a kill indicator, though. It's a single-target low-range execute that can't reset or do anything extra on a champion who's supposed to be for beginners, so it having a kill indicator seems fine. I mean, we have Warwick with his global impending doom indicator, so why not.

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Can we remove the villain mechanic altogether so it doesn't take up a bunch of power budget? It's the sort of mechanic you'd think would be on a diver, but Garen is (supposed to be) a juggernaut.

His ult can keep the villain graphic as a kill indicator, though. It's a single-target low-range execute that can't reset or do anything extra on a champion who's supposed to be for beginners, so it having a kill indicator seems fine. I mean, we have Warwick with his global impending doom indicator, so why not.

the reason why he has it, is so he deals reliable damage to at least 1 member of the enemy team while building tanky.

that is why it makes sense for him to have as a juggernaut ability.

The Lost MarblesFeb 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeRitWnz,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-02-03T03:26:33.567+0000)

the reason why he has it, is so he deals reliable damage to at least 1 member of the enemy team while building tanky.

that is why it makes sense for him to have as a juggernaut ability.

Wouldn't the reliable damage thing be less of an issue if you gave Garen ways to boost his DPS with proper play, as per your own suggestions?

If Garen needs 'reliable damage', then surely there's a better way to fix that then with a gimmicky % HP true damage mechanic where you yourself can't even control who the target of it is.

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't the reliable damage thing be less of an issue if you gave Garen ways to boost his DPS with proper play, as per your own suggestions?

If Garen needs 'reliable damage', then surely there's a better way to fix that then with a gimmicky % HP true damage mechanic where you yourself can't even control who the target of it is.

i dont know. i feel like if he didnt have it he would be an even worse version of darius, even if he could chain spins.

since he cant regain health in combat, hed probably still lose battles of attrition.

BrascusFeb 3, 20171 votes

I like the villain mechanic, allows you to stay relevant throughout the game.

The Lost MarblesFeb 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I like the villain mechanic, allows you to stay relevant throughout the game.

I'd prefer a mechanic that rewarded Garen for playing well rather than punishing an enemy for doing well.

"Oh, you're on a killing spree? Well, now Garen does true damage to you because why not."

BrascusFeb 3, 20171 votes

I don't make the rules man

DreadlocksFeb 3, 20172 votes

Make Garen's ult a skill shot, lets see him throw his sword at someone, that would be funny. Not.

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeRitWnz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-02-03T02:41:40.864+0000)

Make Garen's ult a skill shot, lets see him throw his sword at someone, that would be funny. Not.

i was more referring to abilities like warwicks q and e.

the ability to stick to flashing targets, or decision if you want to move behind or stay infront of them etc. the decision if you want to keep the damage reduction running, or if you want to fear people into your allies.

there are actually a lot of situational interactions between his q and e that give him some abilites to outplay his opponents, even though the abilities themselves are rather simple.

Master LycanFeb 3, 20171 votes

But how else would Garen end his foes rightly?

FriusFeb 3, 20172 votes

riot gave cancer to garen to not be played anymore.

CancerBasedGodFeb 3, 20171 votes

I'd like to see Garen have an option to use his q during his e to trigger it in an aoe that pulls people in, instead of an empowered AA. Probably wouldn't be a huge buff if it didn't silence, but would add options.

Big LincolnFeb 3, 20171 votes

they should make his spin last longer and add more practical cancels to it, give him mastery curve with canceling spin into autos to maximize his DPS

would like to play that

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeRitWnz,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-02-03T03:09:16.964+0000)

they should make his spin last longer and add more practical cancels to it, give him mastery curve with canceling spin into autos to maximize his DPS

would like to play that

that sounds actually like a nice idea.

one of the issues i feel like im having are the large cooldown windows between spins in which you can do mostly nothing.

working around spin cancels and auto attack animation cancels to weave in between spins sounds actually pretty awesome.

Big LincolnFeb 3, 20172 votes

late game he can have permanent spin (if he cancels correctly) to fulfill his beyblade fantasy

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeRitWnz,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-02-03T03:13:21.399+0000)

late game he can have permanent spin to fulfill his beyblade fantasy

imagine a q while in melee range reduces his spin cooldown by the time he had left on his q before the buff ran out.

if you managed to stick to your opponent, the cooldown refund on the spin and the cd reduction from decisive strike would interact in a way you could reach a point lategame (at 40% cdr) where you can constanly swap between hitting decisive strike and spins, if you time the cancel on the spin correctly, and keep sticking in melee range for immediate q's.

for beginners, garen would still be easy to pick up. using q to silence and gapclose, and the spin to deal damage.

but if you learned the timing, youd actually be able to circumvent these big windows of doing nothing and literally chain spins.

Big LincolnFeb 3, 20171 votes

wouldn't b a bad idea

i think his W should have an optimal use case too. made a thread a couple days ago, something like if he manages to soak up a flat amount of DMG then he gets a cleanse, or maybe just a few secs of his passive gets to come up to reward him for soaking that damage

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeRitWnz,comment-id=00030000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-03T03:45:18.342+0000)

wouldn't b a bad idea

i think his W should have an optimal use case too. made a thread a couple days ago, something like if he manages to soak up a flat amount of DMG then he gets a cleanse, or maybe just a few secs of his passive gets to come up to reward him for soaking that damage

another possibility would simply be to make auto attacks against champions reduce the spin cooldown by a flat amount.

as simple as that.

so you could do spin, auto attack cancel + q (which counts as auto attack aswell) to get 2 reductions and are left with a shorter window to your next spin.

Big LincolnFeb 3, 20172 votes

that would work well too

i think a nice QoL would be to make his E's crit mechanic work like Ashe's, where instead of RNG it's just a flat boost to his damage. not necessary but crit builds are fun

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qeRitWnz,comment-id=0003000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-03T03:55:26.493+0000)

that would work well too

i think a nice QoL would be to make his E's crit mechanic work like Ashe's, where instead of RNG it's just a flat boost to his damage. not necessary but crit builds are fun

since the spin already flattens out crit chance, i dont see much of a point in that tbh.

like you have 10 spin ticks at lvl 16. if you have 20% crit chance from an i.e., this means 2 of those ticks will on average always crit. its more his q, where low crit chances make the damage output very volatile.

BrascusFeb 3, 20171 votes

What if Q knocks down (duration extended by movespeed), and R can reset if it kills a knocked down target. Maybe W can softlock reflect missiles and melee damage, or W could reduce the cools downs per hit taken.

MunchCrunchLunchFeb 3, 20171 votes

I think Garen E damage reduction should only be a thing if it hits multiple champions. not multiple enemies. its stupid that in lane minions make him usless. also. his Q needs big changes. sorta like ww Q. some decent mobility. or a small dash. also his W needs a rework. no hidden easy to work with abilities that just reduce your outplay potential but increase hidden power. and the ultimate and the villian mechanic needs a large overhaul because thats whats mostly holding garen back.

he can still be a beginner champion. he just needs to be more flexible. make his Q have a small dash. and reduce animation time. allow us to cancel E faster and remove its damage reduction against minions. (i dont mind having it do less damage to non champs so its not ez waveclear). W needs to be a tottally new ability. something interactive. R is new similarish ult. execute but isn't as much of a static set in stone as it is now. remove villian mechanic. new passive (garen passive atm is really usless in the early game. and late game he sucks). might as well back intead of waiting 2 minutes to regain some hp early game

Troll for TrumpFeb 3, 20171 votes

Warwick isn't very powerful and hella clunky.

You want that on Garen, too?

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Warwick isn't very powerful and hella clunky.

You want that on Garen, too?

i think its because some of his abilities are bugged.

like ive had situations where i landed on top of enemies with his ult, and the ult simply didnt go off. i just stood there on top of them like an idiot and expected something to happen. ive even had one case where i literally jumped over a brands head without stopping and ulting him.

like he was midway between me and the end point of the ult and i just jumped over him.

his q dash also feels like it doesnt work half the time.

though the abilities are still great in concept, and amazing when they do work. its just the bugs that have to be fixed.

XeruonFeb 3, 20171 votes

With Garen's current kit, it's pretty much impossible to make him anything other than a ball of stats on legs. He needs a rework that's about the same level as the recent Katarina rework.

chipndip1Feb 3, 20171 votes

Imo, what Garen needs, from most to least important: New passive, new W, new R, new Q, new E

If Garen's gonna see a gameplay update, his passive and W have to go. They're useless for Juggernauts. His R could be a more interesting move than just a singular dunk, even if it's a dunk in a new iteration. I think people would miss the spin, so I'd like for that to remain above all things.

Anu3isIIFeb 3, 20171 votes

So we make his Ultimate a Skillshot :3

DarkPh0enixFeb 3, 20171 votes

I'd make these changes:

His passive would grant him in-fight sustain. What I thought of, is every 3 second in combat, Garen's next autoattack, damaging ability or tick of judgement will heal him for 100% of his AD + 10% of his missing HP, doubled to 20% if his W is active while healing. This effect can only trigger once every 15/10/5 seconds and its effect is halved on minions
While his W is active, the first 1/1.5./2/2.5/3 seconds will make Garen immune to crowd control. I'd also dramatically increase its cooldown (to like 50 seconds at rank 1 and 40-30 at rank 5). This is to Give Garen the choice of either using the CC immunity and speed up from Q to engage, or save it to have more uses in a fight. Also, I'd probably gut or remove the extra stats from W. The damage reduction and the new effect and synergies with the rest of his kit are too good.
While W is active, his Q gives him even more movement speed while heading towards champions and it stuns the champion hit for 0.25/0.5/0.75/1/1.25 seconds