By majority I mean the majority of League, Dota, CSGO, Call of Duty, tbh just any multiplayer game, people hate going against premades when playing alone, but thank god solo que is coming back soon (Kappa)
MrPharmD77 votesI hate playing with them just as much as I hate playing against them.
Strike the Ping21 votesAbsolutely. I can feel my cheeks clench whenever something starts to go wrong for them. My errors are always 10 times more impactful than their's right?
Niaphim36 votesTheir errors? They play perfectly, everybody in the premade knows that.
ARequestOfDeath7 votesas a person who majorly plays in premade groups i try to include the people outside the premade in the form of communication we are using.
A Small Dog40 votesNo way, I love being matched with 4 people on voice chat fighting 5 other people on voice chat. They're always so supportive and give the best advice together. Best is when they all die on a plan you weren't in on, they're quick to apologize and let you know it's not your fault for forgetting to read their minds. Ah and then after the game you get 9x the honours, with even more friend requests after such a wonderful, troll free game.
(My therapist said my anti-depressants might cause hallucinations so my memory of dynamic que might be skewed "a little")
TequilaZombie24 votesSoooo...
You're saying it's hard to play against a team that works as a team in a team focused game?
kaltenashes10 votesWish it was that simple
DarkRitual5 votesThe team that works together more effectively, wins more often. A more accurate way to state it. Voice chat gives an absurd boost in that, and being in a premade makes it very easy to be on voice chat. 5 solo's can still get in voice chat, and would then have a very strong advantage. Most solo players do not attempt this, either from not bothering/realizing, or from bad experiences with shitty people on mic.
DeathBurst14 votesThe majority of people have confirmation bias, and only remember bad premades, and don't even realize they are playing with/against premades when everything goes smoothly.
And by majority, I mean more than LoL, DotA, CS:GO and other video games, I mean all people everywhere. That's just basic psychology.
For realz, do you have any idea how many Duos there were in old Solo/DuoQ?
. . .
Well, there was a Duo in at least 75% of games. Bet you thought it was lower.
Very Hard Engage3 votesthe main difference being back in the day if i played 100 games, won 50, looked at my wins, predominantly solo q players.
i look at my losses, and i find obvious duo queues. and then i do remember those "obviously thrown" games where i should've been closer to a 65win/35loss scenario a resulting higher elo and closer to 50%.
this was back in the day when lolnexus would tell you who was pregrouped with who else in the room.
im not saying a duo cant be good and i wont find duos on my winning games too, but the majority are bad record your next 100 games and conduct an experiment. any time you find groupings with obvious clan tags tell me the outcomes of those games. (also go into their op gg and see their win rates together)
(from experience 1/4th are good and work well together, and the other 3/4ths the time if the duo is on your team you are the one loosing)
the saving grace is that they are also on the other side on occasion too messing up the enemy team just as much.
what dynamic queue is doing now is heavily skewing matches in favor of the team with the pregroup against the enemy team who is solo q'd or of a lesser group (or several groups).
DeathBurst3 votesWell, if you actually went and checked carefully over a sample of 100 games, I can't contest. But I'll say, I'm pretty surprised you found any significant correlation.
Very Hard Engage3 votesits not accurate anymore, (was s3/s4) i cant check groupings unless they already have a history together or i look back at a later time. so now you have to do it solely based on clan tags whereas I used to be able to see the pair regardless.
(if someone has a tool for pregroup checking that would be much appreciated <3)
Mr Fidori3 votes(from experience 1/4th are good and work well together, and the other 3/4ths the time if the duo is on your team you are the one loosing)
The old "the-premade-on-your-team-is-always-bad" argument.
Very Hard Engage2 votesspeaking from experience, look at your own match history and tell me duos are good for your team for the win or for the loss, or is it an even 50/50.
ive done this several times, and it just so happens to be FTL.
FearEngineer6 votesAnd they were annoying then too.
DeathBurst9 votesYeah, the ones you remember, I'm sure they were...
FearEngineer8 votesYeah, we get it. Confirmation bias.
That's a factor, not some end-all argument.
Guess what? If there is a significant amount of people complaining about something statistically insignificant-- it MIGHT still be significant to address it.
That's literally an issue in every industry anywhere, you realize this too right? People only need a relatively small amount of bad experiences with something before they get turned off of it.
DeathBurst5 votesOk, THAT is a basis for some real discussion, and just not some free bashing, I'll bite.
Sooo... If you accept, at least for the sake of the discussion, that it's not statistically significant, the good solution is NOT to remove DynQ. Then, what do you suggest? Personally, I'm inclined to think that the systems already in place with reports and all are already enough, but I'd be delighted if it could get even better.
FearEngineer4 votesThe real problem facing DynQ, the hostility directed towards experiences with premades, is a result of the values and core gameplay already instilled by the original system.
In the old SoloQ- there were problems too, and it was frustrating. It was a system where your individual merit was solely measured by the outcome of a team game( Which may not sound different, but-- )
That old ranked experience became canonized by a few things, and those solidified in the games' culture and community. Things like: -The only sure way for you to win, is for YOU to carry -Consequently role hierarchy is established, from what role will YOU have the most impact acting ALONE
So, a 'good player' being a relative term- a good player WAS: -Mechanically skilled enough to win their match-up by a large margin -Able to look for opportunities to leverage that margin across the map for more advantages -Direct others to follow their lead, or BRUTE FORCE win fights
People gave duos shit because having a known factor on your team gave you an advantage- either YOU could carry or HE/SHE could carry OR you could count on that second person to specifically help you carry rather than try to carry on their own, or vice versa. Either way, it displaces the burden of "The only sure way for me to win is for ME to carry" into "The only sure way for me to win is for ME to carry, or HE/SHE to carry, or WE to carry" Not to mention that just having someone you know you can communicate with or count on a minimum performance level takes away some of the stress altogether.
Now, did people win games because a stranger carried the game? Of course. But my point is that the MENTALITY of the queue was different-- the CONFIRMATION BIAS of feeling like "I carried that game" and remembering games where you were the carry rather than games were you were carried was very real. This led to the most important point- People FELT that they were very personally responsible for their victories and so they FELT that whatever they did accomplish was very much a result of their own skill.
In DynQ, people are queuing in groups of players they can count on. Even if they aren't good, they are known quantities. They can have definite communication, they can forgo attempting to carry to help someone else to. The more prevalent premades become, the more the definition of a good player shifts.
And so, people who may have thought they were a 'good player' who forged their own way in ranked through skill (Confirmation bias or not) are suddenly not feeling like good players. And no longer feeling like they matter in a meta where the only sure way to have a chance to win isn't just for you to be the carry.
How do we fix this? How do we address a bunch of... feelings?
I don't think we fix it. It's just different and many people will never like it as much as they liked it before.
Riot committed to a big shift in the values of the ranked scene. In a queue where teamwork is now more commonplace and viable in ranked, people who are still trying to carry alone at all costs are not seen as favorably. And when more teams are working together-- NOT working together is much more punishing than before.
I mean Riot has tried. More objectives for people to work together to get, ip incentives for premades, clubs, etc. For people that played thousands of games with that Solo mentality though... idk, no appeal
DeathBurst6 votesI agree with your analysis up to the very last paragraph:
And so, people who may have thought they were a 'good player' who forged their own way in ranked through skill (Confirmation bias or not) are suddenly not feeling like good players. And no longer feeling like they matter in a meta where the only sure way to have a chance to win isn't just for you to be the carry.
So first a quick remark: "thought they were a 'good player' who forged their own way in ranked through skill (Confirmation bias or not)": I talked about confirmation bias earlier, but if you reach X ranking, well, that shows you had the skills for that. I don't believe in luck on the long-term, and confirmation bias has nothing to do here. They felt good because they were good.
But then! "no longer feeling like they matter in a meta where the only sure way to have a chance to win isn't just for you to be the carry": dang, no, that doesn't follow. Because your way isn't the only way anymore, suddenly you don't matter at all? I mean, your old way is still just as valid as before, or close enough, it's just not the only one anymore. So yeah, it shifted the meaning of "good player", since there are now various way to "being good". But I really don't think it shifted it as much as people on these boards would make you believe, and if you break up the set of different skills that a Solo player needs to "be good", even a Dynamic player needs to possess most of them. I mean, good coordination with your jungler won't help you a lot if you are unable to take a single good trade in lane... And on the other hand, you also say "And when more teams are working together-- NOT working together is much more punishing than before." Yes, but you DID have to work together even before as a Solo player. You did have to "sheep-herd" people to Victory, as one Rioter put it. It's not as if Solo players really won 1v5 before, they were just trying to take the lead, but there was still team-work and cooperation. My point is, there is a much bigger overlap than is immediately obvious between Solo and Dynamic skill-sets required to climb.
So yeah, I understand, all of this is feelings, it's hard to reason with feelings. But if people on these boards would stop the propaganda, maybe those damn feelings wouldn't be so prevalent. And I'm sorry for the harsh words, but yes, I really feel (wink, wink) that we have reached propaganda levels of bad faith and misinformation regarding DynQ...
P.S.: I have to say, among all this propaganda, I enjoy the few tidbits of intelligent conversation like this one.
Lugg6 votesEven pre-mades hate going against pre-mades. LOL
The Yetii Rider6 votesWell then. Guess because people don't like it, we should just remove the queue and screw all the players who enjoy playing with friends, right?
The solo players having a good experience should take precedent over the dynamic players having ANY experience.
No. Dynamic Queue serves a purpose and its here to stay.
earlsimmonz4 votesGuess because people don't like it, we should just remove the queue and screw all the players who enjoy playing with friends, right?
.....well thye removed solo que and screwed all players who enjoyed playing against other solo soooooooo yaaaaaa your argument is crap.
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesOh you poor premade players, u only had twisted treeline, teambuilder for normals, aram, dominion and 5v5 ranked. How dare we want the same thing for us solo players. U wanna know what's the difference between those two sides? SoloQ works fine without you premades. DynQ won't work at all without Solos :^)
Extvia2 votes^
Preach it.
We don't NEED DynQ and if you wanna just play in a 3-4 man party you can just play norms. Ranked is intended as a competitive environment and Dynamic Queue just negates that completely with unending clusterfucks.
Bladerunner77775 votesEveryone hates premades, that's why nobody plays in premades right?
The league reddit/boards does not even represent a fraction of the league community, you are the vocal minority
hoes and bows5 votes
Bilel945 votesif we are a minority let us have our solo queue it shouldn't affect dynamic Q
Hrkk Ptoo3 votesIt will greatly affect DQ because your eliminating people who play with 3/4 players.
Mojihito6667 votesSo dynamic Q need solo players , but solo players ARE suffering form dynamic Q.
I wonder what could go wrong ....
Keevalroy5 votesExactly. If we're truly that small in number, then there shouldn't be an issue right? Wait, what? You're telling me you need solo players for DQ just to function? And without them it dies? Huh, sounds like a problem with the system... Hey, I have an idea, bring back Solo Queue and leave Dynamic in place of ranked 5s with a separate ladder and queuing system.
Hrkk Ptoo3 votes[{quoted}](name=Hrkk Ptoo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qdj9eEy9,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2016-06-28T17:36:25.448+0000)
I really don't see what the problem is with Dynamic Queue. I've been playing since season 2/3 and I Quite like how dynamic queue works. I think DQ is better for ranked because everything is individual, you don;t need to be on 4 ranked teams to play with all your different friends and you dont need 5 friends to play ranked. Being someone who wants to get out of Silver/Bronze when most of your time is spent playing with friends in Normals actually benefits me because I can still rank up and play with friends. Trust me we still lose 50% of our games and I could care less if it's against 5 man premade or 5 solo players.
By adding solo queue it eliminates playing with 3/4 friends because you will never find that one person to play on your team with. I hope solo queue doesn't come back it's fine the way it is. I've been playing 2-3 games a night for the past month and got out of Bronze 2 into Silver 4. If your good at the game you can get out of Bronze. Stop finding excuses to hide behind why you are stuck in Bronze.
Keevalroy3 votesStop finding excuses to hide behind why you are stuck in Bronze.
I've been gold for the last 2 seasons making half-assed attempts to climb here and there before going back to Team Builder with my friends. I'm not concerned about rank because I had guaranteed Victorious skins, and if I decide to play again this season, I can easily get gold again. I'm not arguing for premades holding me back, I'm arguing premades being unhealthy for the ranked system.
Hrkk Ptoo4 votesThat last part wasn't directed at you in particular, Just didn't want to retype what I already posted since I think the majority of people complaining are in Silver/Bronze. I disagree that premades are unhealthy, I find when their on my team they actually try to communicate more because they're usually talking to their allies(I also actually perfer to get paired with a duo queue for that reason). But I whole heartedly agree that when theirs 4 premade and 1 solo and that solo makes a mistake he will get flamed and vice versa if a premade player plays bad the others will stick up for him. I perfer this system more than the old one and haven't experienced any of the problems people complain about, either i'm just lucky or i just don't notice. I just like being able to play ranked / solo without having multiple ranks. Much like in HotS.
6KEMBE4ORBA4 votesAnd I've closely followed this whole DQ fiasco for 8+ months.
The majority of poeple on the Boards or Reddit/anywhere else that make half-assed attempts to defend DQ, confuse/mix up the NCS with DQ or any of the facepalm worthy stuff connected with those are/were all bronze/silver/gold.
I've even bothered carefully explaining things to unranked players + people that play only vs bots.
The majority of mid-to-high elo + pros are against DQ.
Can you guess why?
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesThe last two season i was between gold 1 and plat 4 then falling back and stopped playing (that's why i'm gold every frickin season xD but you can watch the stats that i've been higher if they are still recorded by lolking). This season i've already been to my diamond promos. Still complaining about DynQ. DynQ complaints have nothing to do with "holding me back from bronze" but the state of the game. The unfun gameplay getting camped to death by premades thanks to the vision reduction, having to deal with boosted animals who are now playing solo for a few games, premades flaming the solos, enemy premades stomping our games etc etc.
rtbf2256182415 votesCS:GO? What?
CoD? Split screen obscures vision. I approve. And it's an easy game anyway with easy exploits.
Dota? Idk, haven't played it much.
League? Don't see them very often. Mostly Duos and Diamond+ is restricted to 3 premades.
CHALLENGÉR4 votesIts pretty sad to get 4 premades in your team and then they get tilted and /ff...(On a completely winnable game too)
Hrkk Ptoo4 votesI really don't see what the problem is with Dynamic Queue. I've been playing since season 2/3 and I Quite like how dynamic queue works. I think DQ is better for ranked because everything is individual, you don;t need to be on 4 ranked teams to play with all your different friends and you dont need 5 friends to play ranked. Being someone who wants to get out of Silver/Bronze when most of your time is spent playing with friends in Normals actually benefits me because I can still rank up and play with friends. Trust me we still lose 50% of our games and I could care less if it's against 5 man premade or 5 solo players.
By adding solo queue it eliminates playing with 3/4 friends because you will never find that one person to play on your team with. I hope solo queue doesn't come back it's fine the way it is. I've been playing 2-3 games a night for the past month and got out of Bronze 2 into Silver 4. If your good at the game you can get out of Bronze. Stop finding excuses to hide behind why you are stuck in Bronze.
Battlecast Sona4 votesVery rarely do you see players complain in DotA2 about premades (they call it a stack, not a premade) but it's also kind of prevented by the fact that not only does DotA2 tell you who the highest MMR is on the enemy team (and what the average MMR is), but it's a lot easier to shut people down hard in DotA as well in comparison to League (since you lose gold for dying). This makes the problems of stacking a lot easier to deal with - the main issue with premades in League is that it is very difficult to make someone useless for the rest of the game (unlike in DotA2, as an example), which means their communication advantage remains relevant the entire game regardless of the state of the champions involved.
Premades by themselves are not a problem, but due to the rubberband-y nature of League in comparison to a moba like DotA, there's no real way to shut them down unless they're playing particular champions that you can hard counter with picks.
R FLASH XD3 voteswhen the fuckers 5 man gank you .....
Hi am Sloth3 votesi hate azir can we remove him too? i mean if we are removing things a section of people dont like right?
ZeeWolfZ2 votesRiot knows what's best for us. - Rito, Ran by those who do not play their own matchmaking system.
Eevee In A Jar2 votesAnd many of the staff actually aren't very good. As the company gets bigger, its own employees are bound to play but if they all suck and have the same mentality of a skill-less trash player, then they might feel it is a legitimate issue with the game. I disagree and I think Riot is fkin stupid but that's my opinion.
ZeeWolfZ6 votesI agree with you. Riot destroyed their game. Their system is so bad that they've limited Diamond+ to 3 premades and bringing back 5v5 Ranked.
Instead of just reverting to a system that worked for many years, they are just being ignorant.
They are dying fast and honestly I like that fact.
Eevee In A Jar2 votesThey are acting arrogant. F Riot. I can't believe people want everyone to act like League of Legends is so important to us that we're going to remember this game on our deathbed. We're not. League is just something that people use to sedate themselves for the time being. Riot's trying to brainwash people into thinking this is culture and important but it's not. It's just a game. And if you say "it's just a game" you're fucking persecuted by bronze players who think it's wrong for you to think this is a game.
There's nothing wrong with being bad. There's something wrong with having a bad attitude. I agree. But Dynamic Queue didn't solve any of these issues. it simply added to the already existing problems while ruining the competitive experience for most players. Ironically in the forcible decision they thought would promote competition while destroying toxicity had the opposite effect. Riot simply puts out bullshit propaganda info like "Reports are down meaning toxicity is down." It's not. I'm reporting people more than ever now IN NORMALS. I never fucking report in normals. But now I am every game and they are legitimate bad attitude targeted towards my teammates usually not me so there is no bias there. Toxicity isn't getting better. Simply premades won't report each other. Riot expects you to believe that BS propaganda like they think you're all rats.
Let's face it. League of Legends simply suck now. Most people who were here since the beginning who have loved it since the beginning and watched it change (change isn't bad but it is if you fuck it up even after being told not to) to the sorry state it is now. It is hard for newer players to see what everyone is talking about. Like Sure Dynamic Queue won't dictate I can't rank up. But it does make it extremely frustrating since 90% of permaeds in MY team are assholes who don't cooperate with members outside of premade and all bias-report the non-premades for simply not being in their group. Then when you're against the enemy, it is the simple matter of how they have an advantage before the match begins.
In conclusion I agree with you. I can't quite quit because I think I'm addicted but realistically I can't wait for this game to go under. Riot has it coming and it will come soon. League of Legends at the moment is one of very few e-sports competitive game where the rank you can give yourself advantages before the game starts before even champ select begins when you queue up. Which I think is absolute BS. Whoever made the executive decision to allow this move at Riot clearly doesn't have logic or never competed in official matches for sports or games. Your'e supposed to promote skill and talent, not inhibit it by rewarding being mediocre and not relying on your own skills to rank up.
Eevee In A Jar3 votesRank used to be about getting better. Not anymore. Now rank is simply about ranking up even if it means getting boosted.
GayFluffyUnicorn2 votesIf you want to know how good riot is, watch Trick2Gs youtube video: GunnerWolfs vs 2g squad. one rioter is on the GunnerWolf squad and i pray to god he was just playing for the lulz, otherwise it's pretty sad.
