there's way too much armor reduction in the game

Big Lincoln·Mar 18, 2017·98 votes·3,748 views

and it completely warps how tanks and all AD champions need to be balanced

armor pen/shred probably shouldn't be on core items tbh

93 Comments

deadlychuckMar 19, 201715 votes

I agree. Though the inclusion of all this armor pen/shred seems to be a result of riot trying to push AD casters, from the style of Gangplank to Riven into viability.

Without tons of armor pen, physical damage abilities would just be weaker versions of AP skills. Which is honestly fine, imo, because unlike AP casters, AD casters still have auto attack damage. Which should be incorporated into their damage, rather than seen as secondary to it.

Yet you still see champions like Zed who get an auto attack modifier, in this case on his passive, despite really not being in need of such an asset to his kit. He's already AD, he inherently has an easier time last hitting CS, and he doesn't need it at all for champion kills.

Riot has just been trying to expand AD's design space to include AD mages/casters, and the result is inherently contradictory to the fundamental design of the stat. Attack Damage was not designed to function as Ability Power. Just as Ability Power was never designed to function as Attack Damage. The more that riot tries to push this, the more the game's balance gets warped and malformed.

There has always been some degree of cross over, like Jax ult and Ashe Volley. Though they were the exceptions not the norm.

LankPantsMar 19, 20172 votes

There has always been some degree of cross over, like Jax ult and Ashe Volley. Though they were the exceptions not the norm.

That's not actually true. There was a point in time early in S1 where AD ratios just weren't a thing. If you had an ability it either scaled with AP or nothing and that includes abilities which have AD ratios now like Volley and Leap Strike. I think the on exception to this was Parrrlay, which has always had an AD ratio, originally 1:1 because it's always been considered an AA.

Also on Jax's ult, it's newer than champions like Riven and Talon. Jax's ult was only changed to what it is now at the end of S1, before that it had the bonus AS part of his passive, the 3rd hit passive and bonus MR based on dodge on activation.

Asayake 5150glowMar 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I agree. Though the inclusion of all this armor pen/shred seems to be a result of riot trying to push AD casters, from the style of to into viability.

Without tons of armor pen, physical damage abilities would just be weaker versions of AP skills. Which is honestly fine, imo, because unlike AP casters, AD casters still have auto attack damage. Which should be incorporated into their damage, rather than seen as secondary to it.

Yet you still see champions like who get an auto attack modifier, in this case on his passive, despite really not being in need of such an asset to his kit. He's already AD, he inherently has an easier time last hitting CS, and he doesn't need it at all for champion kills.

Riot has just been trying to expand AD's design space to include AD mages/casters, and the result is inherently contradictory to the fundamental design of the stat. Attack Damage was not designed to function as Ability Power. Just as Ability Power was never designed to function as Attack Damage. The more that riot tries to push this, the more the game's balance gets warped and malformed.

There has always been some degree of cross over, like Jax ult and Ashe Volley. Though they were the exceptions not the norm.

AD's are designed with auto attacking in mind, although it's fairly flawed. You can see that by how Talon must auto to proc his passive, Kha'Zix's passive empowers his autos, how Rengar's jump is just an auto, how Zed's passive gives him more auto attack damage, how Riven's passive is an auto attack empower, even Gangplank's.

The major flaws, I believe, is how these autos work. Early game, they're a huge safety net. A Zed who only hit a single Q when he ults will simply auto attack twice more to make up for it, and you can't stop him. Rengar's autoattack usage gives him insane dps when combined with his Q resets. A Riven who all ins, fails her combo, and simply doesn't have the damage, will just auto a few more times and kill a squishy anyway. Assassin's are burst based, and their autos mean they keep a level of unnecessary and unintended power.

My solution is to drastically lower the attack speed of all AD assassins. But, you ask, wouldn't this destroy their ability to weave autos into their combo's because of the slowed auto attack animation? Yes, it would. Unless, we artificially sped up their auto attack animation.

This means a Zed who combo's perfectly still gets in that 1 auto attack and weaves it smoothly into his E's and Q's, and kills his target as intended. But a Zed who fails his Q's can no longer auto attack multiple times to make up for the missed Q damage, unless for some reason his target stands there for over 3 seconds.

Of course, this hits their tower pushing and early game dps, so for the latter, I suggest their attack speed to be kept the same but the scaling to be lowered. AD assassins already chunk towers, the attack speed nerf would only put them on the same level as an AP mage, which is fine.

Riven is not specifically an assassin and is also balanced around being able to duel tanks, but this should not be a problem. Her fast combo will be unaffected, but perhaps a soft auto attack reset would need to be incorporated into her W to make up for that, which again, would not affect her assassination combo. So Riven's ability to take down a tank would also be ability based, rather than simply slapping away with 400 damage autos between combos.

DunkinNoobsMar 19, 20179 votes

There's way too much armor in this game. The armor reduction is merely a counterbalance to this.

Big LincolnMar 19, 20174 votes

i agree, both should be cut down a fair amount

GULAG 4 UMar 19, 20171 votes

That's and interesting view.

Big LincolnMar 19, 20173 votes

can't really hit one without hitting the other imo

i think it'd be best for everyone, as well; tanks don't feel like their 6 armor/health items are worthless, ADCs etc won't feel so worthless against full armor builds

Irelia BotMar 19, 20176 votes

{quoted}

There's way too much armor in this game. The armor reduction is merely a counterbalance to this.

I don't think anyone is saying that armor isn't to strong potentially without it's counters but it is hard to tell when the counters work as effectively as they do.

fuffychanMar 18, 20178 votes

I agree delete item 3071

Big LincolnMar 18, 20172 votes

delete you first

fuffychanMar 18, 20173 votes

When Im agreeing with you???

IncarcerationMar 19, 20172 votes

He's a juggernaut main, you autist ADC main.

Big LincolnMar 19, 20172 votes

no need to be rude i was only kidding

FireDrizzleMar 18, 20176 votes

Black cleaver just needs to have pentration not shred. An item having plenty of individual power with an amazing utility is ridiculous. Like what item has a better utillity than that armour shred?

The last whisper needs to be toned down a lot and the 2 completed items need more effectiveness vs hp so that hp doesn't end up better versus physical damage than health. But an overall nerf so an adc cant solo basically any juggernaut with no kiting lategame.

General Esdeath Mar 19, 20176 votes

Everyone builds item 3071 now

I see tank builds with cleaver for the shred, I see assassins take it, hell I saw an Ashe today with cleaver. It gives too many stats along with armor shred.

TheHappyReaperzMar 19, 20171 votes

Was it an Ashe support?

AirKingNeoMar 19, 20171 votes

BoRK Hurricane Cleaver Ashe, new building going around. It's basically my dream of how ADCs should be built. Down with crit, up with alternatives!

General Esdeath Mar 19, 20171 votes

No, Ashe adc.

AnhartaminMar 19, 20171 votes

[deleted]

General Esdeath Mar 19, 20171 votes

Oh I guess the other 274,378,483 people getting it is invalid because Anhartamin doesn't get it on Zed every matchup, which you shouldn't do anyway unless they have a tank.

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qTAMsIxi,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-03-18T23:20:11.480+0000)

and it completely warps how tanks and all AD champions need to be balanced

armor pen/shred probably shouldn't be on core items tbh

or we could just do what ive been saying for a while.

put more limiters on different sources of armor reduction and penetration so theyre not freely stacking with each other.

nerf item 3814 by 5 lethality, and move it to item 3142

make item 3071 item 3142 item 3035 armor pen/reduction passives same name so they dont stack on the same champion.

(for cleaver this means, the person who has all 3 items can apply cleaver stacks, but ghostblade and last whispers penetration are disabled.)

fuffychanMar 19, 20172 votes

And remove Garens free armor reduction on E. He buys 1 item and deals true damage wtf?

FortisDominusMar 19, 20174 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbRiYV5SBAI

The NeglegentMar 19, 20171 votes

Yea but you have to consider that tanking 31 tower shots has nothing to do with being tanky and everythign to do with turrets being completely irrelevant after lvl 3.

FortisDominusMar 19, 20173 votes

Its not just tanking 31 tower shots, its tanking 31 tower shots in the middle of a TEAMFIGHT.

ChaosThiefMar 19, 20171 votes

It's also worth noting in this scenario the team support he had to survive.

He had Nami with Ws on him, lee sin's shield, a redemption tossed in here, not only that but his team was at a massive advantage overall (The only ones with decent scores on the blue team were corki and varus, and even they were still not nearly as strong.

The tower itself did almost nothing, whereas the most of the damage came from the opposing team rather than the tower, the tower's damage was negligible (ninja tabis, frozen heart and sunfire cape were all the armor items that he had, I'm not sure what that is exactly with nautilus's base armor at the time, but I'm going to estimate somewhere around the mid 200s.)

Honestly the game pacing was modified heavily by how weak the towers feel. They are almost worthless past 20 minutes in terms of damage relevance, and only can really punish someone if the defender (the one being ganked) is a CC chaining monster (alistar, leona, maokai, etc.)

GULAG 4 UMar 19, 20173 votes

There is. Here's the problem with this argument; who builds these items? Not people that can kill tanks. Tanks aren't weak because of armor penetration, most champions that build the stat suck against tanks.

Big LincolnMar 19, 201725 votes

didnt say tanks were weak, I said it skews balance for all groups involved

and it does, because now tanks have to be balanced around having 30% less armor whenever there's a bruiser or a Fiora on the enemy team, and having 50% of their bonus armor being negated once the ADC builds their anti-tank item, which is why Riot gives tanks either ridiculous damage reduction or massive shields to make up for it

GULAG 4 UMar 19, 20175 votes

TBH I do agree that armor pen is ridiculous and hopefully the tank update does shit about it. And let's face it, fiora doesn't need to build armor penetration lol. Her ult can give her 46% max health true damage lel.

Big LincolnMar 19, 20177 votes

fiora considers cleaver core because of all the stats + the passive making her even more obnoxious with the MS from her own passive

i really hate these melee carries getting free movespeed off hitting their shit Fiora Gangplank

AckelopeMar 19, 20174 votes

the movement speed isn't free, though, it does come with the condition of hitting your thing, it's all part of the reward system, what i would say is that it's annoying that they get movespeed along with everything else. It isn't free, but that doesn't make it balanced.

Hinagiku33Mar 19, 20172 votes

Actually, even playing Fiora is does feel a little tacked on and "free". The truly sad part is that it really is needed as bad as it feels. With the MS boost from hitting Vitals, Fiora is able to chase down her fleeing target while also maneuvering around then to hit the other Vitals. It has to suck horribly that a Fiora can just run you down with massive MS boosts once she hits 1 Vital, I totally get that. But it would be a royal pain to try and dance around hitting Vitals for Fiora's ult with nothing but her Q, especially given her Q's very short range and that there is still a fair cooldown on it even when hitting a target until you itemize 40% CDR.

I wasn't a big fan of her new passive in the first place, but it's probably better balanced around an MS Boost that still requires her to maneuver and position well than relying on an even shorter dash to just ping-pong around like a flea on meth.

That said, the MS boost from Cleaver might be overkill even then. I can go a game without getting Black Cleaver and still keep up just fine.

RexSaurMar 19, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qTAMsIxi,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2017-03-19T01:45:27.172+0000)

didnt say tanks were weak, I said it skews balance for all groups involved

and it does, because now tanks have to be balanced around having 30% less armor whenever there's a bruiser or a Fiora on the enemy team, and having 50% of their bonus armor being negated once the ADC builds their anti-tank item, which is why Riot gives tanks either ridiculous damage reduction or massive shields to make up for it

Adcs are supposed to be beat tanks btw.

GULAG 4 UMar 19, 20174 votes

According to the boards adcs aren't allowed to dent tanks.

Critmaster GarenMar 19, 201734 votes

{quoted}

According to the boards adcs aren't allowed to dent tanks.

adc arent allowed to burst the shit out of tanks.

assassins are supposed to counter adc too. yet, riot had to increase their burst window, to give adc counterplay against assassins. going by the same logic, tanks should have counterplay against adc.

RexSaurMar 19, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qTAMsIxi,comment-id=00040000000100000000,timestamp=2017-03-19T02:00:28.826+0000)

adc arent allowed to burst the shit out of tanks.

assassins are supposed to counter adc too. yet, riot had to increase their burst window, to give adc counterplay against assassins. going by the same logic, tanks should have counterplay against adc.

"increase their burst window"

Nice joke, katarina and talon both still kill you near instantly now execpt now they are also lane bullies who can kill you at lvl 2 with no items.

Tanks already have counterplay to adcs, armor items are for the most part stupidly overpowered and cheap early game so tanks beat the living out of adcs until late game, its only fair they actually lose to them late game on a class thats supposed to counter them.

5000000000000000Mar 19, 20176 votes

Katarina now needs to set up for kills, instead up jumping in and bursting anyone whenever. The new Katarina is still frustrating to play against, yes, but the changes definitely delayed her burst.

NineTailedMysticMar 19, 20171 votes

Maybe in laning phase, but beyond that a Kat is still able to one rotation someone when not incredibly behind.

5000000000000000Mar 19, 20174 votes

I'm not saying her burst is slow. I'm saying her burst is slower than before.

Irelia BotMar 19, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Adcs are supposed to be beat tanks btw.

Only late game

LankPantsMar 19, 201711 votes

Also only if they keep their range.

If you're an ADC any you let a tank get on top of you and land every CC and all of their damage onto you, you will die.

ADCs are meant to beat tanks though their 500+ range buffer, not in a completely braindead 'stand and fire' fashion which so many people seem to think they should be able to.

HateDaddyMar 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Also only if they keep their range.

If you're an ADC any you let a tank get on top of you and land every CC and all of their damage onto you, you will die.

ADCs are meant to beat tanks though their 500+ range buffer, not in a completely braindead 'stand and fire' fashion which so many people seem to think they should be able to.

You could make the exact same argument for tank players thinking they should absorb focus fire from an entire team and expecting to live longer than 5 seconds. Heck, you could make this example even more specific: many tank mains think stacking armor means you should be able to ignore all amounts of attack damage outright.

Obviously neither side is correct but there is an equal knee-jerk and bias view on the opposite of your point as well.

SkiasMar 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Adcs are supposed to be beat tanks btw.

No, they are supposed to beat towers.

HateDaddyMar 19, 20172 votes

{quoted}

No, they are supposed to beat towers.

Adcs are designed to kill tanks. That's why crit exists.

YoungSirJ0eyMar 19, 20171 votes

That doesn't make sense. Crit is equally effective against all amounts of armor.

HateDaddyMar 19, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That doesn't make sense. Crit is equally effective against all amounts of armor.

Because if tanks didn't exist, crit wouldn't need to. Crit multiplicatively scales auto attack damage itself to actually compete with armor/hp. AD by itself even with percentage armor pen isn't super effective at killing tanks because tanks will still have 3.5k-4K HP that raw AD alone won't chew through.

SkiasMar 20, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Adcs are designed to kill tanks. That's why crit exists.

It's a good thing crit isn't effective on anyone else...

3TWarriorMar 21, 20171 votes

bruisers and mages were designed to kill tanks...the problem is that when they're powerful enough to do so, they're powerful enough to kill everything else as well

FantasySniperMar 19, 20174 votes

Yeah, but only after a couple seconds of DPS.

Tanks are being blown up by ADCs within a few autos atm.

3TWarriorMar 21, 20171 votes

thought it was supposed to be mages and bruisers that dealt with tanks, tanks beat ADC and assassin, marksmen beat any squishy class if they can engage in prolonged combat but are vulnerable to everything, assassins beat mages, marksmen and fellow assassins if necessary, supports...umm, let's go with brand support! (not a gripe against it but standard supports are meant to keep people alive and are high priority targets in a normal meta),

I covered most of the classes but there are a few "hybrid" characters that muddle things up

oh, forgot bruisers and juggernauts: bruisers beat tanks, are case by case against other bruisers and can maul anything forced into close combat with them

juggernauts are kite-able monstrosities that are supposed to be focused last and of course, stay out of their zone (notice that every juggernaut has a zone)