Regarding low skill hypercarries

Sujiren·Jun 10, 2017·1 votes·355 views

Might be an unpopular opinion, but as much as people hate champions like Yasuo, Lee Sin and Fiora, I think they are way healthier and more fun to play against. Sure their kits might be overloaded, but its possible to outplay them, or for them to simply mess up due to high skill cap requirement for them to play well. What really pisses me off in this game, is low skill right click hyper carries (Hello Master Yi, Twitch, Kogmaw, Kayle) . The only way to punish these champions is with either cc, or during their supposedly ”weak” early game, which isin”t even that weak , when you think of someone like Vayne. Atleast make them land a skillshot before they start pumping their absurd amount of damage.. God, wasnt this why Ryze was reworked like 5 times, because the old Ryze was too op due to targetted q, and had to be kept weak on purpose. Why dont any of these champions get similar treatment?

3 Comments

SEKAIJun 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Might be an unpopular opinion, but as much as people hate champions like Yasuo, Lee Sin and Fiora, I think they are way healthier and more fun to play against. Sure their kits might be overloaded, but its possible to outplay them,

or for them to simply mess up due to high skill cap requirement for them to play well.

What really pisses me off in this game, is low skill right click hyper carries (Hello Master Yi, Twitch, Kogmaw, Kayle) . The only way to punish these champions is with either cc, or during their supposedly ”weak” early game, which isin”t even that weak , when you think of someone like Vayne. Atleast make them land a skillshot before they start pumping their absurd amount of damage.. God, wasnt this why Ryze was reworked like 5 times, because the old Ryze was too op due to targetted q, and had to be kept weak on purpose. Why dont any of these champions get similar treatment?

I don't think I agree at all.

Here are some of the more curious claims in the OP I think you're pushing, let is count. My elaboration included:

Suggesting Yasuo, Lee and Fiora to be fun to play against: When literally the community from all elos find them at least annoying or frustrating to deal with, precisely due to their oppressive overloaded kits.
Suggesting "skill cap" is the same as "skill floor": No they aren't the same, they're the roof and the floor, completely different things. Yas, Lee and Fiora are just like any other mentioned champ in this thread, all have extremely low skill floor, hence none of them is intrinsically harder to use than another. Someone hard to use would be something along the lines of Taliyah or ASol.
Suggesting it's okay to have champs whose only weakness is that their player mess up: So for someone who's so high on counterplays, you're literally supporting champs with no counterplay? How is that a "healthy" kit when the only thing you can do is pray that their player is a zombie? Have you seen Invoker from Dota, who was so OP that if you could play him well you can literally function as 3-5 people worth of utility and damage; guess what, he was reworked because his ceiling was way too high which allowed him to do way too many things and all too effectively. This teaches us that skill-cap has a limit before it becomes OP.
Suggesting feature-creep is what balances the games: Because god forbid strategy, failure state, capitalisation&punishment, guarantees etc; because twitch-reflex is all there is to this hybrid-strategy game.
Suggesting defined strength and weaknesses and clear counterplay options are bad: And then praise the lack of definite counterplays in the "high skill cap" champs when that's always been the actual problem of this game.
Suggesting larger kit is a burden rather than a plus: Because somehow you have more options and flexibility is a con, as fk logic right? Who came up with this mindset in the first place?
Suggesting that many of the AA hypercarries "don't even have weak early game": When the listed characters don't even have it that bad, at least not compared to your "more fun" champs because 2 of them literally embody that problem you're harping on and one of them is an early game god that only falls off late a little bit when compared to his other early-game peers (and they had to nerf his early game pretty heavily just recently to justify his non-falling-off).
Stating that Ryze is broken due to targetted Q: When the problem has always been the targeted snare on W and mana-scaling, and now there's also the ulti.
Suggesting that balance should be deliberately imbalanced and skew towards "skill cap" of champs: No, just no. Balance means balance, everyone is equal. What's the point of "high skill" champs if they're literally just stronger? What's the point of "hard champs" if they're actually easier in the environment with any semblance of skill? Why do you think the vast majority of the mentioned "low skill right click hyper carries", besides the marksmen class which is another can of worms separated from the melee ones entirely, is almost never played in high elo? Why would you want to play champs with "more skill" when you don't want to put in more skill to use them?

The most important point, why is "overloaded champs can be outplayed so it's healthier" even a thing? Well yes they can, obviously, but that would require

Another champ with equally overloaded or more overloaded kit. Or
Requires multiple players to lock them down due to the lack of definite counterplay options hence using higher amount of people is the only way to go.

And somehow that's, in your own words, healthier than champs with less-dynamic and/or less-overloaded kits that is more easily peeled, more easily counterplayed due to clearly defined strength and weaknesses, being more item/performance dependent to be relevant in the game in the long run, and some of them literally pops if you land a strategic hard CC?

WTFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF

...........

Obviously, the game shouldn't be all point and click. But suggesting that point and click champs is automatically unhealthy, or even pushing that all champs should be designed like the ones gone wayyy off to the "high skill" fad end, is also just not right.

Spamming is not skill, over-forgiving kits are not skill, overloaded kits are not skill. Do well with what you have, is still.

And once again, balance means balance. Everyone is equal in power before balance, regardless how "hard" or how "easy" a champ is, no playing favourite.

...........

So I disagree.

SujirenJun 10, 20171 votes

Define counterplay to twitch coming out of stealth with 800 range ulti and murdering everyone with his hyper carry level right click dps, most ccs don”t even have that level of range.

SEKAIJun 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Define counterplay to twitch coming out of stealth with 800 range ulti and murdering everyone with his hyper carry level right click dps, most ccs don”t even have that level of range.

Twitch is kinda his own problem. He's a bit like many old iterations of Eve, where the instant they appear, often the enemy team is already half-dead. The problem is more to do with stealth and its combination with other kit elements, as a primary focus of the issue. That's not to be confused with right-click DPS carries in general.