Sion Should Be Buffed

Mr Vulcanator·Dec 11, 2015·33 votes·2,046 views

As he is right now Sion isn't very good. His shield is flawed in that it has to be detonated manually but if someone bursts thru it you get no explosion. His shield should detonate automatically when burst. Decimating Smash is utterly useless against even then worst players. It needs to be replaced or have the channel removed or strongly reduced. His passive does very little because he gets stunned or slowed and he's just not fast enough to catch up to anybody even if he doesn't get slowed or stunned.

I don't want him to become OP, I just want him to be worth playing.

65 Comments

DeathBurstDec 11, 201517 votes

I disagree. Sion is pretty good right now.

The shield: yes, it has to be detonated. You have to chose between a 3sec shield + damage vs a 6 sec shield. Do you want to tank, or do you want to deal damage?
The Smash: sure, if you open with this move, it will never hit. Try ult'ing then Q, and it's much easier, and a pretty damn strong CC-lock. In lane, E to slow then Q, and either you make them waste a dash, or you hit them and you can even hit them with a basic attack.
The passive: it means if they focus you first (which is dumb because you are a tank), then they have to spend a 2nd round of CC to hold your corpse in place. If they really do that, it should be a free win for your team. Of course, if you die alone for nothing, your passive won't make you suddenly able to get kills. That's not its purpose.

Mr VulcanatorDec 11, 20152 votes

The shield is burst by enemies before I can detonate it. I only get to detonate it on minions or jungle creeps.

DeathBurstDec 11, 20152 votes

Yes, it's normal. If you want it to stay long enough to detonate, you have to build plenty of HP and to level it 2nd. The shield level 1 is pretty weak, but it's normal.

Mr VulcanatorDec 11, 20152 votes

WOOO 30 DAMAGE BLOCK AT LEVEL ONE YAY :P

NikoyopuDec 11, 20154 votes

I agree with you on the smash and the shield (although I think it would be really cool if the shield scaled with it's passive).

However Sion's passive is completely useless most of the time. The enemy team doesn't need CC to take you down initially and after they do kill you they just have to burn one cc to keep you from doing anything. It comes in handy once in a blue moon. You're usually lucky if you manage to punch them once or twice before you die. I'd prefer they give him something where rather than just running at people awkwardly you don't get the extra AD or lifesteal but have some kind of CC so you can still serve as a frontline briefly after you're dead. After all you're a tank. His passive feels like it belongs on a really irritating assassin or a fighter. Someone who was trying to kill the enemy backline in the first place, and therefore would be in a position to do so.

On another note I would like a small buff to his ult. The fact that the knockup is so much weaker at point blank range makes his flash play useless.

DeathBurstDec 11, 20155 votes

If they don't spend any valuable skill to kill you the first time, there must be a problem in your build.

The passive is here as a threat. It's a good thing if they spend a CC on your corpse and you don't do any damage, because it means they didn't spend that CC on your carries that deal 3 times your damage anyway. To play a tank, a true tank not a Juggernaut, you have to be self-less and think of the team. Sure, YOU didn't deal damage. But you enabled your team to do so. So you did your job, it's great. Continue like that.

On another note, I never make flash plays with Sion. He is not Amumu, he shouldn't be played the same way.

And what do you mean, "I wish the shield scaled with its passive"? Like a stronger shield when you stack health with the passive? It does that already, it's a shield in %MaxHealth.

NikoyopuDec 11, 20151 votes

What I had in mind for his shield would be somewhat more direct. Like it shields for all or a percentage of bonus health on it's passive as well. But it would just be a cool thing it's not a buff he needs.

However as it stands the passive is not enough of a threat since you're not in a position to hit the enemy carries and their tanks don't give a d*mn. I'm not saying the passive is completely useless. It has uses. But I would prefer it if it fit the rest of his theme i.e. being a frontline. I think maybe if they have your punches a slow (and remember I'm saying to remove the bonus AD and lifesteal) you could still peel for people at least a little.

As for the flash plays I get what you're saying but his normal initiation isn't great and a buff to his ult that would allow him to make those plays would be nice. It would also help in lane a lot since right now his ult stuns for to little time to charge his Q when the ult's used at point blank range. I just think it would help him deal with champions like flora who he'll never hit with his ult from a distance.

DeathBurstDec 11, 20153 votes

{quoted}

However as it stands the passive is not enough of a threat since you're not in a position to hit the enemy carries and their tanks don't give a d*mn. I'm not saying the passive is completely useless. It has uses. But I would prefer it if it fit the rest of his theme i.e. being a frontline. I think maybe if they have your punches a slow (and remember I'm saying to remove the bonus and lifesteal AD) you could still peel for people at least a little.

I'm sorry, but I have to insist ^^' Their tanks should sure give a damn about you: you have a 10% Max Health on-hit. Remember, BtrK is 6% Current Health. And in what way it doesn't fit his theme of being a frontliner?! It means you can dive in like there is no tomorrow, and still be useful even if you die.

"Here, kill me and I become a massive damage threat, or don't kill me and I'll CC you to death. Oh, and remember, I'm not the carry. Every skill you spend on me is one skill less you can use to shut down my carries."

RalanrDec 11, 20155 votes

My only issue is the movement speed increase is really short. A lot of the time people just outrun me.

No dashes. No flash. They just outrun me with their movement speed. If I find myself dying a lot I get Mallet so I can make it more useful.

kasfasDec 12, 20151 votes

He moves slower in zombie mode than his listed ms, so you never catch anyone unless they don't have a pair of boots.

NikoyopuDec 12, 20152 votes

To clarify I mean you can't hurt their tanks. And a carry with any mobility (and I don't just mean escapes) can easily dodge you and just wait for you to die. I would really rather his passive helped him in his assigned role of bodyguard rather than trying to create a whole new role for him.

But that's all pretty irrelevant. I doubt Riot's going to give him a new passive unless they rework him for a second time and I don't want that. For now I'd settle for a buff to Death Surge so he can actually catch people as Ralanr suggested.

A Miss FortuneDec 12, 20152 votes

I think Sion would be better if his Death Surge didn't decay. I think that's really all that Sion needs. Maybe his ult having something like 5% of Sion's max health as damage.

Dunkrius2gDec 12, 20152 votes

The passive: it means if they focus you first (which is dumb because you are a tank), then they have to spend a 2nd round of CC to hold your corpse in place

The only cc anyone needs to kill Sion in that form is a slow whether it be a 1 second slow or a 0.00001 slow, thats enough to kill sion in that form. The rest I agree.

idontplaythemetaDec 11, 20159 votes

I main sion. With so far 55k mastery. I believe he is a very strong tank. In fact he is. He has an extreme amount of hard cc on a low cd. Basicly unkillable with the right itemization. I can suggest not to build very much ad on him at all. Go full tank til 5th item. And hopefully your one damage item is a bruiser item. He is a very strong champ in the sense of peel. If you do tank you can't kill anybody but by god can you survive. Just run in lookin like an idiot in a 1v5 and as your taking damage stop and yell at your team to follow up. After about 7 seconds of standing there questioning why you went into 5 people they more than likely goin seeing you still have 60% hp. The most tower hits I've tanked in a row are 32 (I tested it in A custom game). He is a tower Diver and does it extremely well. Just build tank and play ballsy and if your team follows up you'll Benifet. Also watch high tier streams he has been played in plat, diamond, and challenger.

RalanrDec 11, 20153 votes

I got over 60 K and you're pretty spot on.

kasfasDec 11, 20151 votes

Got 105k and indeed true, but I suggest getting damage item 2nd if ahead and 4th if even. Makes you a bigger threat. Personally, FH or steraks work best, but in a longer game, titanic is useful.

I rush FH first ( or visage if ap opponent, then FH( I always get FH unless they have low ad dmg, and it's spell damage over aas)), and farm a lot, it makes FH much more effective on sion than other tanks, because free hp.

RalanrDec 11, 20151 votes

By FH you mean item 3110 correct? It's always my second item (or first in lane) if my opponents main damage dealer is an attack speed based on (like Yasuo MasterYi and a lot of ADCs). Personally I love getting item 3053 on him if I get a choice of some offense (I know it's mainly defense) because of it's wonderful effect.

The biggest problem I have with Sion is itemizing CDR. I used to get item 3071 on him, but people keep suggesting item 3748 if I want damage. And while it does help Sion more in the damage department, it doesn't help with my ability pattern (since full CDR maxes his max rank ult have a 36 second cooldown). Thankfully I find myself needing item 3110 often (though if I'm not doing well in my farming then it hurts me since I'm not getting the health I want) so I don't always have to worry.

But man I still have problems finding his core build/power spike item. The items I love building on Sion are item 3053 item 3022 item 3748 item 3742 item 3065 item 3110 item 3071 item 3009 and if I'm deciding I need AP since the enemy team isn't building MR, item 3116 .

Unless I'm just trying to have fun or I'm free to dick around as a jungler (rare but happens). Then I just go item 3930 with item 3022 item 3748 item 3071 some boots and a defensive item. Never gone full build with this mode though.

kasfasDec 11, 20151 votes

Yea I meant item 3110 but I'm on mobile so I don't have the tab for it, I have to copy paste the text. Anyway I play sion top, and although before item 3071 was good on him, the item build path just isn't good anymore on him, so I tend to max out at 30% CD-R with and item 3065 and it works out nice.

AlëkDec 11, 20151 votes

I've actually started building IBG on him in place of FH against normal bruisers. Champs like Yi and yasuo tho I always get FH, but IBG is pretty good now that the slow zone scales with armor. E+AA+Q is almost a garenteed knockup due to the double slow (not stacking just the slow makes it hard for them to move). Build that into a Dead Mans Plate and its gg. Once you finish DMP you wont even need E. U can literally just speed walk up to someone and smack them for a heavy slow into Q.

kasfasDec 11, 20151 votes

I'll have to try that, seems like a good idea, also scales well with steraks. I don't really get dmp though, I nearly always prefer rands as a second armour item, as most adcs get crit, and the passive is a bit wasted on him because he has his ult to engage, and his ms hard caps at 950 during it.

AlëkDec 11, 20152 votes

True, but I mainly like it because I play a lot of jungle sion, and for ganks and roaming around thr map, the ms is just too good.

HawkefireDec 12, 20151 votes

Personally item 3053 feels pretty core on him as it ups his damage quite well while also giving him a very powerful shield to boot.

Afterwards I don't really think he needs any other damage items unless he is getting them for more snowballing.

Some CDR options being: item 3110 (pretty standard) item 3065 and item 3158 (these boots are very underrated imho, the cdr on summoners can be quite useful, especially on teleport)

With those 3 items you get max CDR, however it does use up your boots.

Other choice being: item 3110 + item 3071 if they have basically no magic damage.

RalanrDec 12, 20151 votes

If I get the CDR boots the frozen mallet would be necessary for when I die.

Which isn't a bad thing now that I think about it.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I main sion. With so far 55k mastery. I believe he is a very strong tank. In fact he is. He has an extreme amount of hard cc on a low cd. Basicly unkillable with the right itemization. I can suggest not to build very much ad on him at all. Go full tank til 5th item. And hopefully your one damage item is a bruiser item. He is a very strong champ in the sense of peel. If you do tank you can't kill anybody but by god can you survive. Just run in lookin like an idiot in a 1v5 and as your taking damage stop and yell at your team to follow up. After about 7 seconds of standing there questioning why you went into 5 people they more than likely goin seeing you still have 60% hp. The most tower hits I've tanked in a row are 32 (I tested it in A custom game). He is a tower Diver and does it extremely well. Just build tank and play ballsy and if your team follows up you'll Benifet. Also watch high tier streams he has been played in plat, diamond, and challenger.

the problem is that in this game. every champion that is a fighter/tank. is usually only good as a tank. because htey scale badly in terms of damage they deal later in the game. which is stupid. literally the only use most fighters have is as meat shields

idontplaythemetaDec 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

the problem is that in this game. every champion that is a fighter/tank. is usually only good as a tank. because htey scale badly in terms of damage they deal later in the game. which is stupid. literally the only use most fighters have is as meat shields

So what our telling me is that all the other fighter tanks can only tank so sion needs a buff cause he can be a fighter or a tank? Explain.

PS Nasus is a fighter tank. And he does both roles very well.

StrawberrycocoaDec 11, 20155 votes

I definitely agree that his passive is completely useless. The uptime is so short that any CC or kiting at all renders it meaningless. It does practically nothing unless you die right on top of someone and they're lacking either mobility or cc.

This may be too far in the other direction, but I think Sion should be either Untoppable or have a huge, like 75%, amount of Tenacity during his passive. Just so it has a meaningful practical impact when triggered.

Decimating Smash is very team reliant. If you can work as an organized team to keep enemies held in the zone, it's a huge addition to the team's CC Chain. So not sure how I feel about that suggestion. It would probably need the CC nerfed if it became more quick-castable.

I think the manual shield detonation is a counterplay thing. Your enemy can avoid the %HP damage chunk by diving hard on you to burst the shield down wen it pops. If it detonated upon being burst by enemy damage, Sion's enemies would have no options to avoid that %HP damage except to run away, which isn't really a fun champion interaction for them. Fight or Flee is healthier and gives the opponent more options than Flee And Wait.

rampaging poetDec 12, 20152 votes

The biggest thing Sion's passive does is stop people from charging over his dead body to reach the squishy carries behind him. Any CC you used on him is CC you didn't use on his carries. if you kite backwards away from him, you give his carries time to reposition. If you try to run past him, you're going to take a lot of damage - which might save his carries. One on one it's not great, but dealing or soaking that extra damage in a teamfight means a lot.

kasfasDec 12, 20151 votes

I have successfully zoned many carries from my carries in zombie mode, and although many times my carries die because they don't take advantage, it still works. The main problem is YOUR team fails to make use of your passive, when they cc you, uour carries need to attack them, if they don't, and you zone their carries, they attack the frontline and kill them, leaving only the squishy carries left on their team.

StrawberrycocoaDec 13, 20151 votes

Thats a really good way of looking at it.

SS EnforcerDec 11, 20154 votes

I'm a sion main with 200 games with him and a consistent winrate of 55-60%. Sion doesn't need buffs at all. Right now i'm tearing through people with sion top and jungle. Decimating smash is amazing if you can actually use it, the shield detonation is problematic, but usually i can get it to detonate against most matchups, except fiora maybe, his passive is shit, i agree, but the rest of his kit definitely makes up for it.

LeviathanEliteDec 11, 20153 votes

It does not matter. Balance in the game is fine. Your own skill will trump any perceived game imbalance.

Mr VulcanatorDec 11, 20152 votes

What about Tahm Kench?

Pentarina OnlyDec 11, 20152 votes

This game makes Team Fortress 2 look balanced.

VeraskaDec 11, 20153 votes

Sion is fine right now, good winrates in top and jungle, I play him a lot and he feels strong to me, the long channel on Q is needed for balance purposes (huge aoe knock up and damage) and I actually like using the channel as a zoning tool,

charcharmunroDec 11, 20153 votes

About the only real buff I'd suggest for his passive would make it so that Death Surge has a cleanse effect. Because as is he can get hit by the tiniest of slows and be completely useless.

RalanrDec 11, 20152 votes

Or last longer...or have him move faster. Seriously everyone can just outrun him without a dash or flash.

Big LincolnDec 11, 20152 votes

sion is one of the best tanks you could pick right now?

rand0mredneckDec 11, 20151 votes

What is that about manually detonating his shield? It does that automatically.

AzteryzDec 11, 20152 votes

he wants it so when the shield is destroyed it explodes too because right now it doesnt when it gets destroyed

Blade of JusticDec 11, 20151 votes

So many Sion mains.

But which ones played him before the rework?

RalanrDec 12, 20151 votes

Does that really matter on the current state of Sion?

Blade of JusticDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Does that really matter on the current state of Sion?

It matters to me on whether or not the person is credible.

A quick "I hopped on the hype train" main is not what I would call credible.

RalanrDec 12, 20151 votes

Wasn't it a year ago? Really if they've stuck with Sion since his rework, or play him a lot currently, then I don't think their connection to the old Sion should matter.

Blade of JusticDec 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Wasn't it a year ago? Really if they've stuck with Sion since his rework, or play him a lot currently, then I don't think their connection to the old Sion should matter.

Alright, well, I'll reserve my questions about how to build Sion more true to his old one then for the real Sion mains.

Daedalus871Dec 12, 20151 votes

Well, I've never "mained" any champion, but I did play Sion before his rework. Now before I start, I kind of think your a shitty person based solely off of this thread.

AP Sion: Build shittons of AP. Max stun first, then shield. Forget about damage/infinite health/ult. Stun any champion that gets in range and detonate shield on them for half their health.

AD Sion: Max damage/infinite health or stun. Build Shiv cause you need the MS and wave clear. Build Swifties cause you need the MS. Build Hydra cause you need the wave clear. Build IE for tons of damage. Build 2 tank items so you last longer as you get kited.

Kaiser NoahDec 12, 20151 votes

Sions in a good place. All he needs his passive to be buffed in the sense of the abilitys giving him a bit more movment speed. Thats it.

OwltearsDec 12, 20151 votes

I like the shield detonation idea, I always thought that it should be part of his kit as it fits with his tanky-ness and damage.

SpoofghoulDec 13, 20151 votes

Can Sion have his old passive back, but then on his ultimate

Sions old passive Passive: Feel no Pain Sion has a 40% chance to ignore up to30/40/50 damage each time he is attacked.

Would be really cool if this was added to his ult, as a passive ability, but then altered to remove the RNG

When Sion is below 40% health he blocks Rank1 30 damage Rank2 40 damage Rank3 50 damage

Ironclad DragonDec 13, 20151 votes

Then they'd nerf him again, as the Infinite Cycle goes.

LovelleDec 13, 20151 votes

I disagree about everything except maybe Glory in Death.

It's tough, because against "less aware" or "mechanically challenged" players his passive can be strong, yet against higher elos it serves as nothing more than a deterrent at best (or longer respawn time at worst).

Sion isn't a champion that you're going to be good with in a few games. He takes practice and a lot of trial and error. Even then there are some champs you're going to have a hard time with no matter what, such as Vayne Riven Leblanc Fiora Azir .