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Let's talk about Wit's End

ModKnightsKemplar·1/28/2019, 6:15:23 PM·4 votes·4,360 views

Wit's End is one of my favorite items in League, not because it's good, but because it's so unique. But I can rarely make it work, and I almost never see anyone else building it, even in "for-fun" modes like ARAM.

Rather than having a huge thesis in this thread, I just want to know what others think about Wit's End. Here are a few potential questions we could answer to generate some good discussion about it:

  1. Who uses Wit's End effectively right now? Are there any fun/good off-meta builds I don't know about?
  2. Is there a problem with it, design-wise? Why isn't it good most of the time? (I have opinions about this, but I'm curious about others)
  3. What do you think about the existence of items like this in League? Can it be useful to the game without being bought often?
  4. Who should want an item like this? What's the ideal design space? Are there changes that could push it in that direction without breaking it?

That's pretty much it. If you want to address this from another angle, that's fine, too! Just hoping to have an interesting discussion about a curious design case in League.

33 Comments

Moody P1/28/2019, 6:23:21 PM5 votes

wit's end is fine and is actually quite a strong item right now.

  • games are short and WIt's End is cheap
  • AP is highly present in games so the MR is valuable
  • AS-based bruisers are also prevalent so they can use it well

it's not at all a bad item to buy considering that it's a cheap powerspike for a strong early/mid transition. some bruisers like irelia and xin have been buying it, and I've seen Yasuos with it too. I get it quite often on Volibear. the gold efficiency on this item is insanely good for the power you get from it. the problem with Wit's End is that in any other meta where late games are actually somewhat common, this item is simply too slot inefficient as you head into the game; it doesn't give quite "enough" for bruisers in the later stages, even if what it does give, it gives generously.

Wit's End likely needs a retuning in the future. I would personally like it to become a fighter item since we have annoyingly little choice in terms of attack speed purchases.

MiracleMorg941/28/2019, 6:56:20 PM2 votes

Works really well on Kayle. Goes along with her passive of stripping MR and of course adds attack speed and AA damage that suits her very well. Her top OP.GG build is when she builds it second after Nashor's, with Guinsoo's after. I did this yesterday and it was a blast!

The thigh guy1/28/2019, 7:15:41 PM2 votes

I know kog and varus use it sometimes.

AlienPrimate1/28/2019, 6:39:02 PM2 votes

I build it all the time on Taric. I play Taric more in the jungle and top than I do as support these days and it is probably one of the best damage items on him. It about perfectly caps his attack speed at level 18 (2.49) and the magic resistance steal is huge on him with his mixed damage nature. Here is one of my most common builds on him in top/jungle item 3042 item 3025 item 3009 item 3001 item 3091 item 1401 /item 3068

PhearBunny1/28/2019, 7:57:52 PM2 votes

I build it vs AP heavy teams on my Jungle Leona build, but its pretty rare.

Warrior>Mobis>Abyssal Mask>Wits End>Some other MR item. Seems to do respectable dps combined with abyssal, probably moreso with Sorc boots.

Salvor Hardın1/28/2019, 6:43:25 PM2 votes

Who uses Wit's End effectively right now?

It's one of my fetish items, Rammus and Neeko are the only ones who I find very useful and who make good use of it.

Is there a problem with it, design-wise?

A very unique item in what it grants, like item 3115 , only serves in very specific champions, and this one has the problem that does not grant neither AD nor AP, reason why it reduces even more its use.

What do you think about the existence of items like this in League?

I would love to have more UNIQUE items that only serve in a very situational way.

Alzon1/28/2019, 6:52:45 PM2 votes

Pros:

  • Cheap powerspike.
  • Very gold-efficient.
  • Fills the niche of “defensive attack speed item.”
  • Synergizes with other sources of magic damage.
  • High MR (currently highest in the game at max stacks) increases effective HP vs magic damage considerably.

Cons:

  • No HP to counter Ignite/Conqueror/IE or help vs physical damage as a rush item.
  • Backloaded DPS.
  • Backloaded defense.
  • Slot inefficient, falls off hard later. Even on-hit carries will eventually prefer item 3156 as the game goes on.

The name “Wit’s End” is a perfect description for its current use in League. It’s at its most powerful in the mid game, where it can be augmented by HP for melee users and can shred through champions who have no bonus MR. However, burst meta is still in force, and an unstacked Wit’s End does squat to mitigate burst, especially when an Ignite is dropped every single fight.

I believe Wit’s End is only useful in games where burst is less prevalent, and magic damage is everywhere. That is a somewhat rare combination, but it does happen. The prevalence of Brand and Zyra in the support role helps a bit.

fire2631/28/2019, 9:07:47 PM1 votes

For people who use it in a non-offmeta build, list is short, and many of the ones that use it don't even use it that often. The problem is the MR shred provided isn't as useful for those that rely on hybrid autoattacks as they are already doing hybrid damage. The people that want the MR shred would most likely be mages, but most mages don't reliably auto attack with it. There are a few champions that you might think it's useful on such as Corki , but the problem is that many champions that use it have much more important buys than a wits end, as it doesn't provide a whole lot in terms of damage. It also doesn't provide much late game potential as the onhit damage does not scale in any way and it doesn't have any ap/ad attached to it, nor any health to combine with the magic resist. It essentially is just a worse version of rageblade with the stat shred, on hit damage, and attack speed. In order to make it good I would like to see it have a few more stats on it in return for a higher cost. Since adc's already have rageblade, it would be a nice bruiser/fighter item for champions like yasuo and irelia, and I would like to see the passive scale off of AD instead, and reduce attack speed to about 30% but give it like 40 AD. I feel as if it would be much better for fighters who need some MR options but don't want Maw.

Moonscourge1/28/2019, 9:35:29 PM1 votes

I think most people just aren't aware that it exists. It flies under the radar, despite being extremely strong. It's a good item on Kog, Varus and Kayle. Essentially every person that has some form of magic damage enhanced auto attacks that loves having AS. The MR shred is insanely valuable. Ages ago I was a Kayle main and it was actually always better to buy Wit's End over Void Staff unless the target had more than 120 MR or something. Nowadays it should be even better.

Serge THE GREAT1/28/2019, 9:47:39 PM1 votes

I personally would like Wit's End to give HP and cooldown reduction and have some kind of mechanic for it to work with certain fighters and tanks. I'm probably in the minority here though.

Sasogwa1/28/2019, 10:42:31 PM1 votes

Wit's end is cheap and has insane gold efficiency. Fucking Yasuos even take Wit's end first item into AP matchups just to have prio

xDogMeatx1/28/2019, 10:58:05 PM1 votes

kog maw teemo make great use of it it needs more stats like hp (ruby crystal) (lowered) attack speed item 1057 it would give all the stats someone will use instead of leaving out a key stat

MankeyMadness1/28/2019, 11:18:26 PM1 votes

I buy it for the MR shred less than the stats or anything else. High ASpd champs especially Vayne buying it helps their team handle Galio DrMundo a lot better if they get fed.

It is pretty good except it's pretty much a bad item 3124 but with item 1057 attached.

Shiroe Okazaki1/29/2019, 12:47:07 AM1 votes

About the only champions who can use wits end are on hit champions. And even then they only get it if they actually need the MR. To make it more powerful they could put and actual damage stat on it instead all ATK SPD and MR

DODGEORLOSE1/28/2019, 6:17:01 PM1 votes

Well an item that is made for drawn out fights with champs that deal primarily magic damage in a meta that revolves around burst damage isn't exactly most people's first choice

Dirty Slave10/18/2019, 11:43:56 AM1 votes

I've been playing a lot of AD Twisted Fate lately, and it's so fun. If i'm against at least a AP midlaner I like to buy Wits end. It actually feels pretty strong. I actually feel like I deal more damage when I buy it compared to when i'm not buying it. Or maybe it's just that it feels so damn smooth when I got it in my build path. Whatever it might be, I for sure like this item a lot.

Saezio1/28/2019, 6:21:29 PM1 votes

I think they need to make it more about stealing MR from your opponent but not so that it takes a million autos to stack it. Basically, make it either melee only or ranged only and go from there. Or maybe add a passive that when stacked you steal all the MR with one auto from the next champion?

GreenKnight1/28/2019, 6:21:47 PM1 votes

I remember building it on Kayle. With how quickly she attacks, it's really good on her. Well, it is for now, because we know what will happen to her soon, but it still should work on her

Shyvana and Kog are pretty good users of it too, because of their mixed hybrid damage.

Linna Excel1/28/2019, 6:32:40 PM1 votes

My biggest problem with the item is I don't know who it is meant for. Mages don't want it because no AP and nashor's tooth users aren't happy about it for the same reason. ADCs don't want it because no AD/Crit. It only gives MR and no health so it's not a great tank/bruiser item. I don't even think Shyvana builds this that often. The fact that the on hit doesn't scale at all means it really needs to be rushed to get the most out of it but because it doesn't give you bonus AP or AD, you can't justify it early.

It feels like it was meant for hurricane users only but frankly aside from the AS, the stats aren't great for them. It doesn't synergize well with bork/bloodrazor users and it lacks the AP nashor's users would want. Plus most ADCs don't build magic pen and most hurricane users are ADC.

I say switch out the MR for 30 AD and 40AP and change the MR steal into an AR/MR shred. I think it is just too niche as is and this change would make it a more viable item. Maybe let the on hit damage scale off of bonus AD/AP so it works better with nashors, bork, or rageblade.

Galiö1/28/2019, 6:54:47 PM1 votes

Wits end is good for

Kaisa, Corki, Kogmaw, and Kayle

But usually goes well into a heavy AP enemy team (which is very rare).

Wits end usually isnt an item that u can rush either.

Other than that it's an 'OK' item, nothing really wrong with it.

WeeWeeBojangles1/28/2019, 7:34:21 PM1 votes

On arams i will 100% of the time build this on any tank that is auto attack based if the other team has 4+ ap threats. Shen, volibear, darius, mundo, warwick, jarvin, xin xhao, jax etc. I will always include this item usually after i get a spirit visage, warmogs, and adaptive helm. Here are a few thoughts about the item i have

Likes:

  • For its cost the MR and AS on it are pretty good.
  • It's cheap compared to a lot of other items that give similar AS.
  • Great to build when the other team has a lot of MR or AP.
  • It literally steals MR making you tanky and acting like flat magic pen against targets.
  • Synergizes well with void staff as well as rage blade.
  • Allows your team to do more magic damage to targets you have it.

Dislikes:

  • Provides no Hp So feels awkward on tanks.
  • Late game it feels inefficient compared to a lot of other items.
  • Provides absolutely nothing against Ad or true damage
  • Going more with the second point it's not as good compared to adaptive helm or spirit visage on a tank.

I'd like to see this item buffed. However if its buffed too much it could be a problem on ranged champions while hardly being buffed for melee champs The passive for the item is basic attacks steal 3 MR (6 for melee champs) up to a max of 30. I think melee champs should be able to stack it up to maybe 36 or 42. Making it a little bit stronger for melee champs but the same for ranged. Melee champs have to be in a much more dangerous place in team fights and should be rewarded with the possibility for a litter extra MR.

I also wouldnt mind seeing the amount of MR increased by 25. Make the item cost an extra 450 but add in an extra null magic mantle.

Bârd1/28/2019, 8:21:52 PM1 votes
  1. Varus Kaisa Kayle KogMaw Bard, maybe Diana Neeko
  2. It's an item for champions who need attack speed and flat pen, so that's always gonna be niche.
  3. Niche items are fine.
  4. Carries with magic damage output tied to autos.