Either fully push Karma into support, or fully push her into mage.

koshkyra·Jun 22, 2018·51 votes·15,648 views

Its so weird having a champion who is completely split between support and mage. She doesnt have enough damage to function as a mage since half of her kit is support, but she has lackluster supporting because half of her kit is mage.

It works on other champions like and since they are more tilted towards one side than the other (ori is like 70 mage/30 support and soraka is vice versa) but its so weird on Karma since shes pretty much 50/50.

Its one of those cases where they're weak, but in order to make them viable you have to ruin their identity. If you buff her Q, now she is building full AP going mid oneshotting everyone with RQ and then being useless for 15 seconds until its up again. If you buff her shield, she maxes it and becomes a braindead copypaste of Lulu.

I say you rework her and make her like Orianna where she is 70 mage/30 support. Her E could have the shieldbomb back and her W could be reworked to be more interactive.

64 Comments

IxtaliKingJun 22, 201820 votes

Riot already tried forcing her into a traditional support play style, that's why Karma is where she is today. In her relaunch AMA it was said that she was intended to be a utility mage like Orianna, so hopefully that's what they'll do.

Would like to see her still be viable as a support though, but not as a marksman aide. Old Karma used to synergize well with melees, would be cool to see her fill that niche again.

LightIsMyPathJun 22, 20187 votes

I disagree. Take Morgana as an example:she is balanced in both roles and while not super meta she is not weak in either. Karma is not split between mage and support, her kit is split in 3 and she needs too much stats to be successful. Since you can only acquire 1-2 branches of stats at a time you are focused on a single part of her kit for that game, but then you could have picked someone entirely dedicated to that part to have better results. She works when her numbers are overturned in a way that she is stronger at that single thing than the champions dedicated to it. When her numbers are in the middle ground she's bad cause she's running on 1/3 of her kit. If they want to keep her as a jack of all trades she needs something that allows her to use ALL of her kit for that game stat wise.

SooFr0styJun 22, 20185 votes

Morgana is the epitome of anti interactive. I assume the only reason she is kept how she is, is due to not being overly meta and waiting for her dual vgu with Kayle.

LightIsMyPathJun 23, 20181 votes

There are others uninteractive champions champions and almost everyone of them turned into a balance nightmare sometimes, yet not Morgana. Even this fact means there's something successful about her design and balance

SooFr0styJun 23, 20181 votes

Probably because she has longer cool downs so there's the counter play in that.

SalamencęJun 22, 20186 votes

But Brand and Zyra exist...

Unstoppable MonkJun 22, 20185 votes

Karma mains whining to get buffed? This game never changes.

Stop rushing ardent like you're a season 7 janna.

3TWarriorJun 22, 20184 votes

well the problem with karma is that because they changed her kit in basically the most unhealthy ways possible (removing aspects of it instead of just nerfing...) to where she is so evenly split between mage and support that neither playstyle is really...anything to speak of

her shield can be build to hard scale into the late game and cover everyone, well, not many karma players actually wanted her shield to be a focus, they wanted her lackluster shield to be weak so she could have the unique identity that she had

now, she has one full-offense ability, one ability that basically makes no sense for a mage to have and has been changed so much that I don't even know her current kit...and a shield that had half of its unique nature removed because it was shielding for too much, I mean, come on...

I don't get riot's philosophy of always changing something AROUND a problem instead of fixing the actual problem :(

they've always had problems, but at least some balance changes make sense instead of just blasting the champion into one role and calling it a day

Unstoppable MonkJun 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

well the problem with karma is that because they changed her kit in basically the most unhealthy ways possible (removing aspects of it instead of just nerfing...) to where she is so evenly split between mage and support that neither playstyle is really...anything to speak of

Okay you're just labeling it as unhealthy without really understanding what the design changes were from old league and Karma has been top tier with her kit in the past, so you're just being dishonest.

her shield can be build to hard scale into the late game and cover everyone, well, not many karma players actually wanted her shield to be a focus, they wanted her lackluster shield to be weak so she could have the unique identity that she had

It's an option that been used by current karma players which take her for the shields, so speak for yourself.

now, she has one full-offense ability, one ability that basically makes no sense for a mage to have and has been changed so much that I don't even know her current kit...and a shield that had half of its unique nature removed because it was shielding for too much, I mean, come on...

One offense, one defense, and an offense-defense. It makes sense for the champion.

I don't get riot's philosophy of always changing something AROUND a problem instead of fixing the actual problem :(

Again, old dead meme karma was a second rate healer used when the heal/shield supports were banned out. That's not really an identity, remote non-interactive shooting/punishing was nerfed, and minion healing/shielding was taken out of the game.

3TWarriorJun 22, 20182 votes

true, I was not around for her original update but all i've heard is that it was received poorly, also the times that she has been top-tier are when mid-laners with no mobility at all (as in twisted fate or xerath level of mobility) are popular or when her shield was so strong that assassins could not poke through it #typically, assassins are one of her more decent matchups because they have to get in close and she can actually use her W...which proved VERY PROBLEMATIC when combined with a high shield base and ratio...

no, they forced all of her power into her shield by removing its extra features and keeping its high ratio that could shield THE ENTIRE TEAM!

except that her ENTIRE KIT used to be both offense and defense and actually fit the champion? now she has her W tether as just kind of there, her E's Shield-bomb is gone, I dunno about the movement speed oh and I already mentioned that they FORCED all of her power into her shield where she becomes a shieldbot because it's her most efficient ability now...

ummm, are you talking about her BEFORE her rework or after? she was never a healer for the team after her rework and she USED to be a potent mage with support options but now, she's a support that has a dangerous poke...because riot moved all of her power into her shield INSTEAD OF NERFING THE SHIELD AND KEEPING HER OFFENSIVE POWER

Unstoppable MonkJun 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

true, I was not around for her original update but all i've heard is that it was received poorly, also the times that she has been top-tier are when mid-laners with no mobility at all (as in twisted fate or xerath level of mobility) are popular or when her shield was so strong that assassins could not poke through it #typically, assassins are one of her more decent matchups because they have to get in close and she can actually use her W...which proved VERY PROBLEMATIC when combined with a high shield base and ratio...

no, they forced all of her power into her shield by removing its extra features and keeping its high ratio that could shield THE ENTIRE TEAM!

except that her ENTIRE KIT used to be both offense and defense and actually fit the champion? now she has her W tether as just kind of there, her E's Shield-bomb is gone, I dunno about the movement speed oh and I already mentioned that they FORCED all of her power into her shield where she becomes a shieldbot because it's her most efficient ability now...

ummm, are you talking about her BEFORE her rework or after? she was never a healer for the team after her rework and she USED to be a potent mage with support options but now, she's a support that has a dangerous poke...because riot moved all of her power into her shield INSTEAD OF NERFING THE SHIELD AND KEEPING HER OFFENSIVE POWER

Her power isn't all in the shield and she's plenty offensive?

3TWarriorJun 23, 20182 votes

did you know that her mantra shield is 400 + 110% AP and 30% of that to all allies in the vicinity?

did you know that she has to get almost within marksman attack range to use her W?

did you know that one of the few champions in the game that is weaker than her offensively is Twisted Fate? an early game, utility focused, skill focused, macro focused champion with a kit that functions similarly to hers only heavier on crowd control?

Unstoppable MonkJun 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

did you know that her mantra shield is 400 + 110% AP and 30% of that to all allies in the vicinity?

did you know that she has to get almost within marksman attack range to use her W?

did you know that one of the few champions in the game that is weaker than her offensively is Twisted Fate? an early game, utility focused, skill focused, macro focused champion with a kit that functions similarly to hers only heavier on crowd control?

That burns an ultimate resource, so that's really just her ultimate. I don't know what you're talking about with her offense, because she has some of the easiest pokes/trades in the game when combining her E for MS and could easily body an ADC for 1/2 health for free. W is usually bruiser karma or a risk/reward move and let me say as someone that has seen metatank karma in full form it isn't anything to to call weak.

3TWarriorJun 25, 20181 votes

that ultimate resource is around 22 seconds at max CDR before any other modifications and her shield can affect UP TO HER ENTIRE TEAM, also, it decreases by 4 seconds for every champion damaged by her abilities... and 2 for every auto attack

you also make it sound like she can just burst for that much EVERY time with her Q when in fact she needs to burn that ultimate resource you rmentioned to do that much damage

yes, "tank" karma is dangerous when it comes around, but for that matter, so is "tank" anything against a squishy target, she can just perform a role similar to mundo except for her root as tank karma

Unstoppable MonkJun 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

that ultimate resource is around 22 seconds at max CDR before any other modifications and her shield can affect UP TO HER ENTIRE TEAM, also, it decreases by 4 seconds for every champion damaged by her abilities... and 2 for every auto attack

you also make it sound like she can just burst for that much EVERY time with her Q when in fact she needs to burn that ultimate resource you rmentioned to do that much damage

yes, "tank" karma is dangerous when it comes around, but for that matter, so is "tank" anything against a squishy target, she can just perform a role similar to mundo except for her root as tank karma

At this point I don't know if we are even talking about the same champion, because Karma Q is a fair amount of damage even without Q. Being compared to mundo in her bruiser role is likely an indicator of strength.

The champion right now is just fine, it's just the same vocal meme minority is always asking for old karma. If we bought back every old version kit there would be lots of problems. There's no way to balance old karma.

3TWarriorJun 25, 20181 votes

her Q does 260 + 60% without ultimate

if we take the average AP of 800, that becomes 740 damage BEFORE magic resist

if we then take into account that most games are going to be finished before karma completes that many items, so let's say she completes 4 items for about 2/3 full build, that comes to 533 AP

260 + 60%(of 533) = 580 damage before magic resist

you can increase this by 100 more with luden's echo, if she even builds it for a total of 680 before magic resist

it will hit an undefended target hard for roughly 30% of the base 2000 hp, but otherwise, nowhere near half of their HP in one Q

She's good for poke damage, but her numbers are actually low for most mages and very low if you count a full combo (as I mentioned elsewhere in the thread that Twisted Fate is one of the only champions with lower damage output than her...)

TyroneWatermelonJun 22, 20184 votes

Same goes for JarvanIV , he either builds as a full instakill assassin or a full defensive potato ult bot.. he cannot function as a fighter because he only has a small shitty shield, and lacks damage to even duel a tank

NuparuJun 22, 20181 votes

J4 has that problem because his build and kit lean to burst. If he's got high base stats/damage, he can build tanky and do a lot of burst with his CC.

If he's got high scalings/damage items are strong enough, he can just build full damage and burst everything.

His kit isn't designed to duel well. He has nothing going for that other than his E aspd (which is weak) and his Q shred (which just gets used to burst.)

flibitydooJun 22, 20183 votes

Actually right now they're trying to push soraka into being a mage

legit the most cancerous build to face which is max E and spam that shit in lane is the most played/highest winrate soraka skill order.

Riot has done nothing to get rid of that cancer.

MarshbouyJun 22, 20184 votes

uhh no it's not http://na.op.gg/champion/soraka/statistics/support W max is still highest playrate

hhaavviikkJun 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

uhh no it's not http://na.op.gg/champion/soraka/statistics/support W max is still highest playrate

http://champion.gg/champion/Soraka/Support? W max is highest playrate E max is highest winrate

MarshbouyJun 22, 20183 votes

https://imgur.com/a/NYRkFxK

Emo TwinkJun 22, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Actually right now they're trying to push soraka into being a mage

legit the most cancerous build to face which is max E and spam that shit in lane is the most played/highest winrate soraka skill order.

Riot has done nothing to get rid of that cancer.

They havent even touched her damage, people just figured out it was possible to poke hard with e.

OverpoweredSoapJun 23, 20183 votes

Karma was always intended to be both a midlaner and a support.

Problem is that her passive gives her mantra up so often and that her E is so overloaded that Support Karma tends to be better because she can shield and haste an entire team constantly.

Her rework is generic as fuck and is basically "Baby's first rework".

Nea104Jun 22, 20182 votes

They nerfed her shield for NO reason :P I don't think they have any proper idea what they're doing about her (nor the game itself).

Midg3tJun 22, 20182 votes

As some1 who has over 400k mastery points, I like current Karma. I like that she can protect her teammates and deal a good damage early/mid game. Although shield power items ere nerfed, she still has Athene's, and Ardent, with the stats it gives, is still a nice item on Karma. All in all, she's a good champ imo, a nice mix of protection and damage.

Only things I would like to see changed are her animations and to add either some escape ability or change her W to heal her teammates aswell.

Noor SakataJun 22, 20182 votes

Same goes for Lux tbh , recently they nerfed her E and buffed her W , so they nerfed her as a mage and buffed her as a support Lux is pretty much 50/50 too , her Q and W are more like support abilities , and her E and Ult are the mage abilities , her q can be a little bit mage-like since it does dmg when she is full ap , but her E is also support-like since it slows , that's why Lux is 50/50 too , only her Ult is pure mage ability and her W is a pure support ability , right now Lux pick rate at support is higher than mid

BakedLotionJun 22, 20183 votes

I hope you know the sole purpose her Q exists is to land her R.

3/4 of her abilities are made for damage. The only time her E is considered a support ability is when it's used to zone. And a lot of other abilities zone enemies, like Veigar's cage. That doesn't make it a support ability.

LightIsMyPathJun 22, 20183 votes

Her midlane is definetly buffed. Mana costs and cooldown buffs helped her mid too. It was a more impactful buff for support then mid but still a buff even for mid, no doubt. Her winrate went up in both position of 2%, sending her close to 50, which in this meta full of assassins is super high for her. Her pickrate is still higher mid than support in high elo.

Noor SakataJun 22, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=LightIsMyPath,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qI33zYvY,comment-id=000e0001,timestamp=2018-06-22T21:56:16.538+0000 Her midlane is definetly buffed. Mana costs and cooldown buffs helped her mid too. It was a more impactful buff for support then mid but still a buff even for mid, no doubt. Her winrate went up in both position of 2%, sending her close to 50, which in this meta full of assassins is super high for her. Her pickrate is still higher mid than support in high elo.

I really doubt that , the cooldowns buff was pretty good yeah , but the mana buff isn't that much good , in the first place after the mana changes she got nerfed , her pickrate according to op.gg which is plat+ says her support pickrate is really high her winrate is 50% because of the low pickrate she has , which is 2% , in other words only her one tricks , and do not forget that she is a team reliant mage , really sounds like a support

LightIsMyPathJun 23, 20181 votes

Don't forget they also buffed her q damage. This is a huge buff in early stages of the game for midlane. Her pickrate went a little up (she was so weak even mains were starting to avoid picking her) and so did her winrate. So it's definitely a straight up buff. As far as her nature goes, she IS team reliant and always was so as an utility mage

Noor SakataJun 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Don't forget they also buffed her q damage. This is a huge buff in early stages of the game for midlane. Her pickrate went a little up (she was so weak even mains were starting to avoid picking her) and so did her winrate. So it's definitely a straight up buff. As far as her nature goes, she IS team reliant and always was so as an utility mage

Ah well the Q buff should be nice , but I didn't know it went live , I though they reverted it in the pbe , mb , but really in op.gg her pickrate in support still the same and in mid it became much lower

Rıots Bad ClientJun 22, 20182 votes

I personally thought was possibly the lamest champion.

She had no clear theme out of all the champions.

Ariel the CruelJun 22, 20182 votes

Considering she used to have one, that's just disappointing.

XxXGwanXxXJun 23, 20182 votes

"Its so weird having a champion who is completely split between support and mage. She doesnt have enough damage to function as a mage since half of her kit is support, but she has lackluster supporting because half of her kit is mage."

Funny how that was the problem when they reworked her in the first place. She barely changed anyway. I'm just happy I have the Hipster Karma skin.

Neptunia xoxoJun 23, 20182 votes

She is supposed to be half Mage half Support if that makes sense. She actually has one of the highest AP ratio's on her Q and even her base damage is pretty high with her ulti. I don't think Karma is bad right now especially when people are queueing a lot of mage bot lane and such shes really good at quick trades. Obviously she has problems and probably needs a rework or something but I don't think shes in the gutter.

4th3t0sJun 22, 20181 votes

Just revert her back to her old self like back in season 2; her entire "rework" has been a failure.

Sewer SideJun 22, 20182 votes

Lmao old Karma was a bigger joke. The whole reason why she was reworked was she was a gimmicky E shield burst that surprised people with damage because literally 3 people played her.

Ariel the CruelJun 22, 20186 votes

Lmao old Karma was a bigger joke.

Old Karma was a hard scaling support that favored front-liners, in a time when supports had no gold and were never allowed to leave the ADC's Shadow.

because literally 3 people played her.

Tends to happen when Riot ignores her and bans her from free rotation. Can't say if she would have been more popular or not, but she received almost no exposure. (>_>)

4th3t0sJun 23, 20181 votes

I blame the fact that she had arguably the highest skill floor for any champ up to this point; nevermind being heavily dependent on team coordination to really be effective.

Ariel the CruelJun 23, 20181 votes

nevermind being heavily dependent on team coordination to really be effective.

Taric Remember, Being dependent on allies for success is bad design! Kalista

CURSEÐ REVENANTJun 22, 20181 votes

Annie Zyra Velkoz Pyke

Excuse me?

Automated RivenJun 22, 20181 votes

I would like to see her balanced as a mage tbh. bring back shield bomb. and her AOE q.

Iceborn PippinJun 23, 20181 votes

I would rather have a versatile character than one locked into one type of playstyle.

The Space CowboyJun 23, 20181 votes

I like her kit for a solo lane when she has enough stats. Apply shield, r q nuke, stun and retreat, auto attack, q. It’s a solid trade even if she won’t kill you in one rotation.