What if Garen's ult has its cooldown reduced to 140/110/70?

IsIsGankedParis·Jan 16, 2015·20 votes·1,742 views

Balanced or still not enough?

29 Comments

Chaotic ReksJan 16, 201511 votes

they need to buff garen in order to compensate for the loss of his grasp

MetalGearTeemuJan 16, 20159 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qGt7agJE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-16T20:01:19.099+0000)

they need to buff garen in order to compensate for the loss of his grasp

He was RuneTerra's mightest wizard.

WTB Wizard Garen Skin where he uses Deathfire as his weapon.

E turns him into a literal fireball while spinning.

R becomes a Lighting bolt.

OuroboroJan 16, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=NyX Reks,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qGt7agJE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-16T20:01:19.099+0000)

they need to buff garen in order to compensate for the loss of his grasp

They really do

360D3GR3SSJan 16, 20153 votes

I think he needs to keep his high cooldown early game at ~~180~~ 160 otherwise Garen would dominate his lane too easily, and be too snowbally. EDIT: Meant 160 not 180

BeersteinJan 16, 20155 votes

{quoted}

I think he needs to keep his high cooldown early game at 180 otherwise Garen would dominate his lane too easily, and be too snowbally.

This. Bringing his ult more in line with Nidalee Q or Volibear W would be unfair to people that may have to deal with the new improved supergaren.

Edit: Sarcasm for those of you that are clueless.

IronChefBoyardeeJan 16, 20151 votes

What are you talking about? We're talking about shaving 40 seconds off of one of the longest CDs in the game for a mediocre execute. You're talking about a 6 second Cd for an ult? What the hell lol

360D3GR3SSJan 16, 20151 votes

Mediocre? Try the best execute in the game. 525 + 40% of a targets missing hp is easily the highest execute damage.

junglerboy16Jan 17, 20151 votes

—except for the fact that most executes also have a real scaling, like AD, AP, or the user's HP.

It is certainly powerful, but not powerful enough for the cool down it has. On that note, it should be made more powerful, not given a shorter cool down. Garen's weakness is how he needs his ult to kill, and I would without a doubt prefer a more reliable execute over a more frequent one.

360D3GR3SSJan 17, 20151 votes

Yes this one scales from their missing hp which is actually better than building AD or AP because you don't even have to build any damage for it to be extremely effective.

junglerboy16Jan 17, 20151 votes

No, I mean other execute abilities scale with their missing health AND AD, AP, or user HP. Volibear's scales off of his own HP, but its damage is also increased based off of the targets missing health, usually making it much more Potent. Riven's ult scales off of AD, but increases by up to 200% based on the enemy's missing health, and is FAR more powerful than Garen's execute.

360D3GR3SSJan 17, 20151 votes

Yes they do, but they only become strong when the user actually has high values of ad, ap or hp, Garen needs none of those for his to be effective.

Riven = Maximum Physical Damage: 240 / 360 / 480 (+ 180% bonus AD) (usually around 423) Hitting for an average of around 660 total Garen = 550 + 40% of targets missing hp

StephenizgodJan 16, 20152 votes

While their at it they should remove the CD on his W, actually it should just always be up. Also his Q should be a radial silence and a stun on the person he hits, it is also an instant teleport...no one can escape his justice... His spin should slowly increase in size until at the end it covers the entirety of top lane and mid lane (if he is in mid lane he will hit some of top and some of bot lane). The ult should be on a 6 second cooldown and be automatic, anyone and i mean anyone (yes even allies, minions, and neutral monsters) below 30% life should be auto-executed. His passive should heal him like Volibears passive, except is anytime he takes damage and there is no cooldown.

ya know since we are making him OP now i thought this would be in the right direction...

I dont recall anyone saying his ult should be on like a 7-8 second cool down, only that it be slightly reduced because it is freaking long for no reason. Specially when both Nid and Volibear have better executes, since they can use it like ten times before Garen can use his twice. It isnt even that good of an execute, so idk why its so long. It would be OP if they reduced it by 80 seconds but i think 30 or 40 seems reasonable enough. If its too much they can raise it again. People are worried about an OP Garen when he has no gap closer or CC other then a silence, honestly i doubt 40 seconds will bring him to Godtier.

EDIT New game mode idea, its like Doombots except its one vs five, The Mighty Garen vs your team.

NublordJan 16, 20152 votes

Hedrinker around lvl 6 says Hi and Bye to "wanna-be Fed" Garen.

360D3GR3SSJan 16, 20151 votes

Except for the other 80% phsyical damage he does that can easily kill you if you stay within his danger zone...his ultimate is just to quickly finish you off...if he gets to full Es on you early game you are dead.

MatezoideJan 16, 20157 votes

Meanwhile Darius

And Riven

And Fiora

And Zed

And Katarina

And Annie

And Tryndamere

And....actually, just about every single solo lane champion with an Ultimate that is remotely useful in duels.

160 CDs is completely absurd no matter how you slice.

Most of these Ults arent completely countered by a 1300 gold item either.

Nidalee's Hunted Q outdamages Garen's Ult lele

360D3GR3SSJan 16, 20152 votes

None of the champions you listed have any NEAR Garens abilities. He gets free tankiness from 1 point in his w, his E does MASSIVE damage and scales exceptionally well and can crit, his Q is the second longest silence in the game, and scales VERY WELL with TOTAL AD. He does a bunch of damage early game, if they lowered his ultimate cooldown he would easily be the most effective lane bully that has a monstrously tanky late game with a 6 second 30 % damage reduction and CC reduction and 20% BONUS ARMOR AND MR. Nidalee Q max damage 300 + 250% AD+120%AP Garens R damage 525 + 40% of targets missing hp. Garen's does an insane amount of damage without him having to build any damage at all. while sure nidalee can achieve higher damage, she needs to actually build ALOT of it in order to get anywhere near Garens ultimate.

MatezoideJan 17, 20152 votes

Is this a joke? Are you seriously saying Garen does more damage than Darius, assuming they have the same build? Are you seriously saying he deals more damage than Darius early game?

Are you seriously saying none of the mentioned champions can snowball as hard as Garen would?

Garen will become a super lane bully that hyper carries games incredibly quickly if his lwvel 1 ult lost 20 seconds of it's CD. Do i have to explain how stupid that sounds?

It is not like his ult is strong early game either, the only time it isnt out-classed by similar ults is when he is ulting half dead tanks.

Mentioning a champion's strengths over and over does not help your case, sorry.

360D3GR3SSJan 17, 20152 votes

Darius has 0 innate tankiness. Garen does. All the champions you listed are Meant to snowball to an extent, I'm saying giving Garen an ultimate with that cooldown would make him WAY to strong a lanner in comparison to others (Similar to Darius before his ultimate timer nerf) And yes Garen actually does have more damage than Darius if they both built full tank. 20 seconds is a significant buff.

MetalGearTeemuJan 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think he needs to keep his high cooldown early game at 180 otherwise Garen would dominate his lane too easily, and be too snowbally.

meanwhile Riven

InsaneSamuraiJan 16, 20153 votes

Buff the guy who just got his own personal megawarmogs? :P

WiriusJan 16, 20152 votes

They may not want him viable. His kit is extremely simple, and meant for beginners. They want complex and flashy champs to be viable for high level plays, not someone like Garen.

kokopelli2Jan 16, 20152 votes

I think the cd should stay the same or go up but be reduced by 50% if you kill the target.

And and a moment of silence in remembrance of DFGaren, you will be in our hearts forever

flibitydooJan 17, 20152 votes

The issue that Riot has already stated with Garens ultimate is that it scales infinitely (with the enemy target's health) and that it isn't tied to Garen attacking his enemy; He doesn't earn the execute damage in some scenarios. With a champion like Darius, you have to get those bleedstacks to deal damage. With Cho'gath, it's actually a flat nuke that scales moderately with ap(it doesn't help execute at all, and it can be cast at the beginning of a fight to deal as much damage as it would at the end of the fight), but it's encouraged to be cast as an execute by rewarding the player for using it as the culling strike (which again, if you have the 6 stacks, you don't need to save the feast to be the killing blow) With Riven,a big part of the power budget in her ult goes into the bonus AD and attack range; The physical damage execute is more of a bonus

With Garen, you can just walk into someone else's lane, push R and kill. You don't have to touch them beforehand at all.

I think that the way his ult should be fixed is that it: should have it's cooldown reduced. But instead of damage scaling based on a flat value of missing enemy health, it scales based on the flat value (NOT percent) of Garen's missing health. This is nice change because it encourages the player to build tank/stack health, it means that Garen has to engage the enemy (otherwise his preserverance passive will screw up the damage of his ult), and it makes sense thematically (The ultimate itself is called "Demacian Justice", justice for the injured demacian). Although such a change would weaken his current existing combo (I'm talking about the Q, E, R that was highlighted in his champion spotlight), it would fix the issue of his ult having such a high CD.

ErijianJan 17, 20151 votes

{quoted} This is nice change because it encourages the player to build tank/stack health

Garen's not a Tank, people need to realize this. Just because he gains 20% bonus stats from the items he purchases, and regens at a hilariously high rate out-of-combat is not a reason to justify tank builds. That's a reason to justify more offensive builds as he needs less defensive items to achieve the defensive stats of actual tanks in certain scenarios, allowing him to opt for more damage as he gets enough free stats to manage without the extra defense.

And the 30% Damage Reduction Active from Courage is extremely good and doesn't require a lot of Armor to be effective. Besides, you get enough Health normally just from your two main defensive items and Cleaver if you decide to build it.

Der LindwurmJan 16, 20151 votes

I'd support this just to hear "JUUUUUUUUSTICE!" that much more often.

TheKingDodoJan 17, 20151 votes

They should just make his E and R scale with AP. (hybrid scale not full scale)

AbyssphereJan 17, 20151 votes

140/110/80 sounds good to me, or 130/105/80.

junglerboy16Jan 17, 20151 votes

Still not enough. Its base damage is super low at rank 1. Personally, I would prefer giving it a higher early base damage and higher missing health scaling on later ranks, but a similarly long cool down. It has a super long early cool down to keep him from repeatedly executing a lane opponent if he gets ahead, and needs that gating. However, the damage it gives is not good enough to fully warrant having that long of a cool down. Basically, it needs more damage for viability, but long cool down to prevent excessively powerful 1 kill snowballing.

Live works like this: 175/350/525 (+28.57/33.33/40% Missing HP), 160/120/80 second cool down.

What I would suggest: 200/375/550 (+30/40/50% Missing HP), 150/120/90 second cool down.

This gives it a minimal power increase early (by +25 damage, +1.43% more missing health damage, and 10 second lower cool down). This allows for slightly increased reliability at gaining kills, and allows him to not be so weak for as long.

Late game, it is significantly more powerful (+25 damage, +10% more missing health damage,), but also has a 10 longer cool down than live. This late game cool down trade off would allow his execute to pack more of a punch, but not be a constant (oppressive) threat.

EDIT: I don't know why, but I felt compelled to do this just now. I did the math and with his passive, Spirit Visage and its passive, Warmog's out of combat passive, and the recovery, perseverance, and second wind masteries all active at once, Garen can surpass 820 HP5... that is over 164 health per second.

LytebulbJan 17, 20151 votes

Or riot could just make him do true damage.