Nothing has any trade-off anymore

FederationFurry·Jul 16, 2019·7 votes·4,012 views

This is the problem with current League, there is a lack of weakness in most new champions and reworks. Simply put, champions have way too much and don't pay anything for their power. In any game there needs to be clear trade offs and I just do not get the feeling that Riot understands this. New champions are overloaded and can do way too much and its hurting the overall game.

Maybe this is why League is seeing declines in popularity each year. Riot just are not able to design champions that are interesting but have clear trade offs, they overtune everything on purpose to make more money.

Profit should not come at the expense of game balance.

Games just feel so repetitive at the moment when they used to have variety because everyone just uses the same "broken" champions over and over again.

28 Comments

TheBrothersGrymmJul 16, 20192 votes

Riot needs to stop making new champs and focus on actual balance. rework old champs but dont break them, alot of visuals really, and they need to nerf whats too strong and buff whats to weak, why was TK usted af for an entire month> why is irelia still top 5 top/mid even after getting "nerfed" shits just stupid atm,

Also the game has changed so much that the OG players season1-2 onwards, most of them dont play anymore, my RL friends who got me into league where diamond every year since ranked came out, but once they change runes they stopped playing, for shits i had one come over and play a game, he literally laughed when he saw Zoe one shotting from 1 item, he died when he saw sylas stealing ults every 15 seconds, showed him kaisa and his question was why does and adc do 15% of your hp after 5 autos, xayah and rakan he liked, he thought ivern was the coolest thing ever till he played him. i mean the game changes so much so fast, but always stays the same really, shits always gunna be broken and unbalenced because riot clearly dosnt care.

Last year when they put out all those ads on youtube and other plateforms for league i laughed because how much did they spend on those ads? and how many players did it bring in? and out of those players it brought in how many actully still play??

PhearBunnyJul 16, 20192 votes

old champions still have weaknesses. But yes, the new fad is hyperoverloaded mechanics with no weaknesses. Because if everyone is hyperoverloaded and has an answer for every scenario, then everyone is balanced. Just gonna take along time to get there, and alot of things like Skarner and Nocturne are gonna be dumpstered in the meantime.

LovelleJul 16, 20192 votes

You can largely thank the new runes for that. The old rune/mastery system (pre keystones) was exponentially more balanced, all they had to do was make the runes free.

RaiyzaJul 16, 20192 votes

Completely agreed. This is especially true for Items.

Take item 3102

Ability Power CDR Magic Resist AND a spellshield?

Theres no tradeoff, no sacrifice, no reason NOT to pick this item. The balance team should remove the CDR or the MR entirely. One item does not need everything a mage needs.

CyrosiJul 16, 20192 votes

Wasn't Yuumi really underpowered, which is sad because I'd be willing to learn her if she was a little better. I think the bigger part of LoL that causes problems is that it's an older game and they haven't fixed as many issues as they've added over the years. For every problem they've fixed they've caused one more. Then they keep adding new heroes, but the old ones aren't super well balanced anyway. There are just a lot of problems. For example...

A reasonable part of the player decline is that LoL isn't bringing in and keeping that many new players, despite advertising. As someone who has played LoL, attempted dota, and played HotS, all of the MOBA tutorials really suck. It doesn't matter which game you pick because they all have equally bad new player experiences. LoL is experiencing a lack of supports and junglers right now, and that's not a shock, because there is absolutely nothing said in game about how to play those roles, yet said roles are not traditional and have a lot of weird rules. I didn't know I wasn't suppose to attack minions as a support until I got yelled at a few times for it. Jungle is even worse because it has 4x the amount of weird, nonsensical rules than supports do.

How do you expect players to play your game well when there are clear player expectations, but you don't tell the newbies how it's suppose to work? That's just one example of how older stuff that the playerbase takes for granted causes problems for potential new players.

PxerkzaJul 16, 20191 votes

what did the old champions have as a trade off?

FederationFurryJul 16, 20191 votes

For example, if you were facing high magic damage, you would pick Galio . He wouldn't be that useful against an AD team.

PxerkzaJul 16, 20191 votes

and what champions do not have this trade off now? you think every champion is good by default against everything?

FederationFurryJul 16, 20192 votes

Pretty much yes, items make most champions (Or at least the Riot "favourites") good against everything

PxerkzaJul 16, 20192 votes

and who are those riot favourites? because as far as i know there aren't 100% win rate champions in any elo

Zero ShingetsuJul 16, 20192 votes

{quoted}

and who are those riot favourites? because as far as i know there aren't 100% win rate champions in any elo

Of course not, because human reflexes are incapable of achieving a 100% win rate. That doesn't mean Yi, Garen, Tryndamere, Zed, Yasuo, and so on, and so forth, and on and on and on aren't completely disgusting.

PxerkzaJul 16, 20191 votes

none of those champions except for yasuo are pro viable and yasuo is very specific counter pick and team reliant pick for pro play including high elo

these champions are incapable of doing much when factoring in people having brains and fingers

Zero ShingetsuJul 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

none of those champions except for yasuo are pro viable and yasuo is very specific counter pick and team reliant pick for pro play including high elo

these champions are incapable of doing much when factoring in people having brains and fingers

Pro viability means literally zero. Literally nothing. It's worth less than the dirty on my hunting dog's claws in springtime.

What matters is what's balanced for the vast majority of the playerbase, which sits between Bronze and low Platinum.

PxerkzaJul 16, 20191 votes

no you see thats where you are wrong

pro viability means how useful a champion is when players know how to use their mouses and keyboards

if you haven't learned how to use those peripherals your experience will differ

DGAGAAsharpAGDJul 16, 20192 votes

Yeah, lets balance the game about skill, around players that can't play the game correctly... Thank God, that Riot is keeping their balance between, low elo, high elo(the most balance changes are made for this one) and proplay.

(imagine listing Garen and Yi as disgusting lol)

Zero ShingetsuJul 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, lets balance the game about skill, around players that can't play the game correctly... Thank God, that Riot is keeping their balance between, low elo, high elo(the most balance changes are made for this one) and proplay.

(imagine listing Garen and Yi as disgusting lol)

Imagine completely failing to grasp one of the most basic concepts of economics.

Allow me to present to you an alternative illustration, if you would. Let's say I've put out a consumer product. Say... Golf clubs. Now I have two primary options here.

A. I can sell clubs that are high-tech, expensive, and finely tuned to accommodate the courses and motions of high-level players, which account for about 2% of the golfing population. These clubs will do next to nothing for anyone of less skill, as the balance is such that you NEED to have proper form to get the most out of them, lest they get away from you on the swing.

B. I can sell clubs that aren't particularly weighted or balanced for any specific type of swing, nor finished for any specific type of course. Pros won't get any advantage out of them, but the other 98% of the golfing population can use them without creating new problems for their game.

Which choice is more monetarily advantageous, would you say?

Taken in another context, swords were considered the ultimate weapon by many. They were as good for attack as for defense, they could be used in confined spaces, hidden under a garment, they could be easily wielded with a shield in the offhand, and they could slash, bash, and stab equally well. Yet when lords commissioned arms for their armies, did they commission a metric crapton of swords?

No. They went for spears. That's because spears are much easier to use. The VAST majority of the lord's army would consist of levied men who'd never swung a sword in their lives. When you put a spear in their hands, however, THAT they can use; thrust them with the pointy end and you have the gist of it.

In short, it's to Riot's benefit to balance the game around its biggest audience when the disparity between pro and amateur is so great in number. You're essentially admitting that these people "can't play the game correctly". Tuning the entire game around the people who can thus creates an experience that isn't fun for everyone else, and if they were all to stop playing? Riot folds tomorrow.

You're advocating for taking race cars, putting a custom-built engine into a car, stripping catalytic converters, tuning all the aero to the nth degree, and then giving them to people who just want some trunk space to put their groceries in. What do you think would happen to Ford or Honda if they started selling overtuned race cars instead of 4-door sedans?

DGAGAAsharpAGDJul 16, 20191 votes

Nice to read, makes sense in theory, tho it has no conection to the problem.

Why are you even comparing prices with skill? It's more like bad dart players whining that taget is too small, so you would make it bigger to catter to majority of players who aren't good?

Also, "Riot is balancing around proplay" is pretty stupid argument, I hoped that it's only used as meme at this point, but sadly it isn't.

They are obviosly balancing around every elo(no champ with solid pickrate goes above 54% winrate in any elo), you say that Yi or Garen are broken, when they are easily outplayable, they have counterplay(as vast majority, if not all, of roaster) and they are succesful just bcs of mistakes of their enemies, your exemple is stupid and has nothing to do with actual problem.

Listing to mob, the majority, the low elo is way to hell balancewise, thus economicaly as well.

Zero ShingetsuJul 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Nice to read, makes sense in theory, tho it has no conection to the problem.

Why are you even comparing prices with skill? It's more like bad dart players whining that taget is too small, so you would make it bigger to catter to majority of players who aren't good?

Darts are fun because they're challenging. Despite pros being pinpoint-accurate, they're still fun for regular Joes in bars across the world because no one expects to hit the bullseye every time, they just want to see how well they can do. League is a game where winning matters to most people who play it, so it's a different situation.

The reason I compare prices to skill is... Well I wasn't really, I only mentioned the theoretical price in passing. The real point was the tuning. To tune a game entirely to a tiny portion of your consumer base means everyone else is going to flail around with it and it won't be enjoyable to them.

Also, "Riot is balancing around proplay" is pretty stupid argument, I hoped that it's only used as meme at this point, but sadly it isn't.

Perhaps, but that was the point he made, so that was the point I responded to. I do think it's true to a point, as well; they tend to take specific cues from tournament play in patch notes when they explain the reasoning behind a balance tweak.

They are obviosly balancing around every elo(no champ with solid pickrate goes above 54% winrate in any elo), you say that Yi or Garen are broken, when they are easily outplayable, they have counterplay and they are succesful just bcs of mistakes of their enemies, your exemple is stupid and has nothing to do with actual problem.

It absolutely does. You've made my entire point. Those two are easily outplayable... if you know what you're doing. You have to be REALLY good mechanically to get around Yi and Garen. Garen is capable of slaughtering entire teams without building a single damage item. The key to beating him is either A, snowballing way earlier than him, or B, knowing exactly where to be and when to use each ability to minimize his threat and maximize yours.

These are things the average player just doesn't know off the top of their head. That's what makes them "average". The reason pros are such a rare commodity, the reason people revere them as they do (ridiculously so), is because they can do things in this game that the vast majority of players can't even approach. To balance the game around those who aren't near as good won't hurt the pros any. However, to balance it around pro play will mean many champions have a skill cap too high for the average player.

Listing to mob, the majority, the low elo is way to hell balancewise, thus economicaly as well.

How so? How would it actively hurt the game to balance around the far and away largest portion of the player base?

Hayaishi2Jul 17, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, lets balance the game about skill, around players that can't play the game correctly... Thank God, that Riot is keeping their balance between, low elo, high elo(the most balance changes are made for this one) and proplay.

(imagine listing Garen and Yi as disgusting lol)

Most balance changes are around pro play, not high elo. If it was Riven would've been nerfed long ago.

ZephyrDrakeJul 17, 20191 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zero Shingetsu,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qGOdmHb7,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-16T09:48:59.115+0000)

Of course not, because human reflexes are incapable of achieving a 100% win rate. That doesn't mean Yi, Garen, Tryndamere, Zed, Yasuo, and so on, and so forth, and on and on and on aren't completely disgusting.

"I don't like these champions therefore they are OP"

Zero ShingetsuJul 17, 20192 votes

{quoted}

"I don't like these champions therefore they are OP"

I like them fine. They're fun to play, most of them have pretty good lore, etc etc. I'm just able to look objectively at the fact that they're anything but balanced. I mean Yi and Garen and two of the champions literally designed for beginner accessibility.

KalokasIsMyDaddyJul 16, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much yes, items make most champions (Or at least the Riot "favourites") good against everything

I think this happens because most new champions have a bit of everything. Let's take release Sylas for example. He had a slow, heal, dash, shield, good damage and every enemy's ult available to him.

Or look at Neeko. Good damage, transformation to any ally, speed boost + invisibility, Root, Stun and a shield.

Riot just throws a bit of everything on new champions and so they don't really have weaknesses, and if they happen to have, they are fixed by items.

PxerkzaJul 16, 20191 votes

Maokai

has a knockback a slow a root that can hit multiple times untargetability self heal and another root + % dmg nuke that aoe slows

Malphite has a slow an atk speed slow a knockup aoe auto attacks scaling free armor

Sion has a slow, armor reduction, knockup another knockup, spammable shield that does insane damage, unstoppabl

Zillian has spammable insane move speed buff almost spammable stun revive free cdr steroid accelerates xp gains of the team

zyra has an aoe root aoe slow and aoe knockup

singed has a slow a grounding a root a fling armor/mr healing and mvoe speed steroid

a ms buff around allies and enemies

tryndamere has a slow, ad reduction, heal, free ad , free crit, low cd gap closer

annie has a targeted stun an aoe instant stun another aoe almost instant stun damage reduction that has a damage reflect a summon that has a sunfire effect autos gets enraged which can get the damage reduction and damage reflect

fiddle has a long lasting point adn click fear a silence insane gap closer with insane damage a channel that has the highest damage output and highest healing in the game and free ms if he stands for a little bit

wow look at that listing the kit of any champion makes them sound op

KalokasIsMyDaddyJul 16, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Maokai

has a knockback a slow a root that can hit multiple times untargetability self heal and another root + % dmg nuke that aoe slows

Malphite has a slow an atk speed slow a knockup aoe auto attacks scaling free armor

Sion has a slow, armor reduction, knockup another knockup, spammable shield that does insane damage, unstoppabl

Zillian has spammable insane move speed buff almost spammable stun revive free cdr steroid accelerates xp gains of the team

zyra has an aoe root aoe slow and aoe knockup

singed has a slow a grounding a root a fling armor/mr healing and mvoe speed steroid

a ms buff around allies and enemies

tryndamere has a slow, ad reduction, heal, free ad , free crit, low cd gap closer

annie has a targeted stun an aoe instant stun another aoe almost instant stun damage reduction that has a damage reflect a summon that has a sunfire effect autos gets enraged which can get the damage reduction and damage reflect

fiddle has a long lasting point adn click fear a silence insane gap closer with insane damage a channel that has the highest damage output and highest healing in the game and free ms if he stands for a little bit

wow look at that listing the kit of any champion makes them sound op

I didn't list Sylas to make him sound op, but to show how many shit they threw into his kit without very much thought.

PxerkzaJul 16, 20191 votes

didn't i just show you that champions have just as much shit in their kits? Akali and irelia were overloaded as fuck Sylas wasn't Sylas base kit sucks ass ...for him to be good he has to be ok without hit ult

and as far as current state of sylas nothing in utility has changed for his kit while repeatedly nerfing him to 42% win rate

Troll for TrumpJul 16, 20191 votes

Old League was more CD-gated (CDR less openly available, base CDs were higher), manacosts were somewhat higher, and counterpicking was slightly more relevant. Basically, old League was more dotalike.

Hayaishi2Jul 17, 20192 votes

{quoted}

what did the old champions have as a trade off?

Varus ??

No mobility, high cooldowns, shitty base stats.

preternaturalJul 16, 20191 votes

the only champion that actually suffers from this is yasuo but more often than not you end up having a full ad team next to him so itemisation is easier.