We Need a Tank Item Overhaul

Meep Man·Jul 3, 2018·44 votes·14,111 views

Gonna say this again, especially now that multiple people seem to be focusing on it. Tank Items need an overhaul. They are extremely unsatisfactory to buy and with so many innate ways to ignore defense these days, hardly feel like they are making you any more durable. The only champions these days that feel durable these days are the ones with innate defensive mechanics that don't require them to have items to work, so why even build defensive items? The few defensive items built are hardly ever bought for the stats they provide and more for some insane active/passive effect they have, and, even worse, those active/passive effects are hardly ever defensive based. Some are, but those items are few and far in between and, even worse, often require you to build other defensive items to be worth it (like Locket and Gargoyle's).

Defensive items aren't used for defense anymore, just for really good passive/active effects that help your champion deal more damage (Sunfire, Deadman's, Abyssal), shield other allies (Locket, Knight's Vow), or some extremely strong synergy with your kit (Righteous Glory, Spirit Visage, Iceborn Gauntlet). OR they are situational and only work a fourth of the time (Randuin's, Thornmail, Adaptive Helm). Only two that are just pure self-defenses is Gargoyle's (as said, that requires you to invest into defensive items as a build which, as mentioned, isn't worth it) and Warmog's, which ALSO requires an investment in more health.

76 Comments

Teridax68Jul 3, 201825 votes

I think part of the problem isn't just with tank items, but with the state of anti-tank damage in the game right now. Percent health and true damage were once a rarity in the game, now both are seen in every match, with percent health damage being added to practically every new kit, and true damage being distributed in heavy amounts via the rune system, plus some newer kits as well. This causes tank itemization to feel bad when it's balanced, which then requires tank stats to inflate to match increases in anti-tank damage, or some other form of compensation (i.e. increases in tank damage), which then make those champions overbearing against those who were designed before all of this damage creep. It will therefore always be very difficult to balance tank itemization in the current environment until we start removing excessive max health and true damage from the game.

I also agree that defensive items are now frequently designed to deal more damage, when they should be made to provide new ways to soak up damage, or otherwise contribute in a way that truly benefits tanks. I really like the idea of defenses being more active in League, and I think making more items that allow the user to tank skillfully could help allow tanks to be durable without turning into passive bullet sponges.

On top of that, I think tanky itemization needs to change so that it benefits tanky champions specifically, without ever being abused by squishies looking to cover their weaknesses. One of the factors behind the current state of snowballing in League is that many damage-dealers have had their base damage reduced and their scalings increased, in an attempt to force them to rely on damage itemization and avoid tanky builds. Because these champions scale far harder with damage items now, they snowball harder off of gold leads, leading to the really gross damage spikes we see so often now. If tanky items were made to specifically benefit tanky champions, perhaps with an emphasis on power through scaling with health and resists, rather than just from the raw stats themselves, all champions could be allowed to be made less snowbally without going for abusive builds as much. Additionally, putting emphasis on actually tanking damage with these items, e.g. by giving bonuses that scale with the wielder getting hit, could similarly discourage tanky builds on squishier champions.

Pommel KnightJul 3, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I think part of the problem isn't just with tank items, but with the state of anti-tank damage in the game right now. Percent health and true damage were once a rarity in the game, now both are seen in every match, with percent health damage being added to practically every new kit, and true damage being distributed in heavy amounts via the rune system, plus some newer kits as well. This causes tank itemization to feel bad when it's balanced, which then requires tank stats to inflate to match increases in anti-tank damage, or some other form of compensation (i.e. increases in tank damage), which then make those champions overbearing against those who were designed before all of this damage creep. It will therefore always be very difficult to balance tank itemization in the current environment until we start removing excessive max health and true damage from the game.

I also agree that a defensive items are now frequently designed to deal more damage, when they should be made to provide new ways to soak up damage, or otherwise contribute in a way that truly benefits tanks. I really like the idea of defenses being more active in League, and I think making more items that allow the user to tank skillfully could help allow tanks to be durable without turning into passive bullet sponges.

On top of that, I think tanky itemization needs to change so that it benefits tanky champions specifically, without ever being abused by squishies looking to cover their weaknesses. One of the factors behind the current state of snowballing in League is that many damage-dealers have had their base damage reduced and their scalings increased, in an attempt to force them to rely on damage itemization and avoid tanky builds. Because these champions scale far harder with damage items now, they snowball harder off of gold leads, leading to the really gross damage spikes we see so often now. If tanky items were made to specifically benefit tanky champions, perhaps with an emphasis on power through scaling with health and resists, rather than just from the raw stats themselves, all champions could be allowed to be made less snowbally without going for abusive builds as much. Additionally, putting emphasis on actually tanking damage with these items, e.g. by giving bonuses that scale with the wielder getting hit, could similarly discourage tanky builds on squishier champions.

Yep I remember when Lee and Elise were among-st the only people with % hp dmg and that made them the best junglers. That and it wasn't capped vs monsters.

saltranJul 3, 201820 votes

Nice, so we can have all the ppl cry for a tank meta once again.

For me is fine, I like tank metas btw.

ZackTheWaffleManJul 3, 20186 votes

Yeah, I'd rather have nothing die than have everything die.

GayFluffyUnicornJul 4, 20181 votes

except tanks are so broken they beat every non tank to death.

DragonSheaJul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

except tanks are so broken they beat every non tank to death.

That is because riot has a dumb mentality of thinking that tanks should have high damage throughout the game. They should have high early damage but scaling CC power and durability scaling. Tanks with good damage should be niche pick, such as Rammus vs a pure AD team. (thank riot for Pyke )

LordGeovanniJul 5, 20181 votes

Tanks are supposed to be gated by Windowed damage and melee range. They also have the worst mana gate in the game but mages can cry about mana nerfs with 200 ways to regain mana while tanks only have item 3010 (and its super low gate on hp and mana regain) in a meta where everything is burst damage including dps. The only reason tanks beat fighters is because fighters build like tanks they have no ad they have no lifesteal like they did in previous seasons because they are too busy trying to survive mage and adc burst per second from the season 5 6 and 7 tank item nerfs coupled with bruiser item nerfs in season 5 because unlike adcs and mages everytime their items get nerfed fighters dont complain when the items they use get nerfed they adapt and play more conservative.

PapaGreg21Jul 3, 20189 votes

Tank meta was the best meta

TheSingularityJul 3, 20187 votes

Mentioned this in an older thread. But over the years tanks have lost 850 HP and 55 armor. Then bring in a stronger armor shred item in item 3036 and scaling armor pen through lethality, and even assassins are shredding the absolute crap out of tanks. Was full build naut with item 3193 and about 4800 HP. Zed bought me down to 1/4 HP through my W, stgoneplate and a build of item 3047 item 3065 item 3083 item 3800 item 3742 . IDC what they build. DPS is what counters beef not burst. The very class built to counter assassins, are easily assassinated.

Did make a thread with a bunch of proposed changes if u wanna check it out.

TonyTonyMordecaiJul 3, 20181 votes

Unless they explained it somewhere, I didn't understand why Riot reduced the health given from tank items, while only giving a couple more options to have more resistances, but not gain any more health.

TheSingularityJul 3, 20182 votes

They nerfed stats and reduced costs at some point I'd assume to make tanks happen faster. But that it simply not the case as now it takes more items to become tanky (certain tanks must buy certain items over others) and tanks end up less tanky than seasons 3-5 (my favorite seasons as they were my best naut seasons) And I feel tank players really really want their own equivalent to item 3089 item 3031 item 3151 item 3146 item 3078 item 3748 item 3072 item 3071 item 3095 item 3053 item 3139 item 3156 item 3100 item 3022 item 3814 item 3812 I mean, just look at the options. I may have missed one or two, but that's every offensive item over 3000 gold. You could say we have item 3001 but the cost isn't in beef, it's in the MR shred passive.

I personally, want 1000 HP item 3083 , 500 HP 80 armor item 3143 , 100 armor item 3075 , 120 armor item 3110 , make item 3025 melee only and increase armor to 80. Increase the costs, idc, I want to feel beefy af and I couldn't care less about dmg besides that needed to clear the jungle

MOuHahaHAhahaaaaJul 3, 20185 votes

it's more like we need a game overhaul

The Yetii RiderJul 3, 20183 votes

The issue is that tank items get poached by fighters when they are good and fighters do not need to be unkillable. They are monsters when they are unkillable.

Tanks are mostly fine. The change to Last Whisper made it a more common buy, that's probably the main issue tanks are having right now. That and no one wants to play tanks in the jungle.

Honestly the best solution to make tank items more powerful while keeping them from being poached is to make items give % Base Armor instead of just flat armor, but that makes armor terrible to rush and really really bad on divers and juggernauts. So there's no obvious solution.

Teridax68Jul 3, 20188 votes

I personally like the idea of making tanky items amplify bases, instead of providing flat stats, which could allow a clearer separation between champions who are meant to be tanky (and who'd have high bases + better tank item scaling), and champions who aren't. Riot had also tried in the past to make fighters scale primarily with health and tanks scale primarily with resists, which I think would be good to bring back as a means of separating itemization for the two classes.

RalanrJul 3, 20182 votes

Bring back? When did they stop? The last new fighter items previewed had a health scaling or focus while tank items still feel more focused on resistances.

Teridax68Jul 3, 20181 votes

Except tank items still provide a heavy mix of health and resists, and items like Dead Man's Plate, which were designed for juggernauts, have resists. Many tanks also have health scalings in their kits, e.g. Ornn or Galio. Moreover, the previewed items got scrapped for now, and are not actually present in-game. Riot may have announced their intention to bind health to fighters, and resists to tanks, but have yet to truly follow up on that intention, as tank and fighter items are so muddled that there is often little real distinction, a problem that carries over to members of both classes themselves.

RalanrJul 3, 20182 votes

Of course they are a mixture of health and resists since defensive itemization requires both most of the time. They can’t rely only on resists as that makes %armlr pen and true damage way too strong.

It’s not as though fighter items are all either health or AD. Several common ones (Titanic, Triforce, BC, Mallet, Steraks) have a mixture of AD and health.

Riot was trying to make tanks a more resistance heavy class, but that doesn’t mean they planned on making them rely only on resistances.

Teridax68Jul 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Of course they are a mixture of health and resists since defensive itemization requires both most of the time. They can’t rely only on resists as that makes %armlr pen and true damage way too strong.

And why is that a bad thing? True damage and armor pen are already too strong at devaluing tankiness anyway, so really, the problem may just lie with those mechanics, rather than resists. The very fact that you consider it obvious that tank items should have both health and resists is a clear indicator that the two stats are not bound to separate classes.

{quoted}

It’s not as though fighter items are all either health or AD. Several common ones (Titanic, Triforce, BC, Mallet, Steraks) have a mixture of AD and health.

Sure, but that is a combination of stats that is meant to be bound to fighters. Resists are not bound to tanks, and resist+health items can be used very efficiently by fighters (some, like DMP, are even intended for fighters). Moreover, this only adds to the problem, as several more modern tanks have been designed to scale with AD items as well, e.g. Sion, Poppy and Ornn.

{quoted}

Riot was trying to make tanks a more resistance heavy class, but that doesn’t mean they planned on making them rely only on resistances.

That's all very nice, but the net result is still the same. Tank and fighter items overlap far too heavily, as do tanks and fighters, and so it is difficult to design an item for one class without it risking getting exploited by the other.

RalanrJul 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

And why is that a bad thing? True damage and armor pen are already too strong at devaluing tankiness anyway, so really, the problem may just lie with those mechanics, rather than resists. The very fact that you consider it obvious that tank items should have both health and resists is a clear indicator that the two stats are not bound to separate classes.

It's possible that they do rely in the mechanics. Armor and MR without health isn't really that effective, but if you made it "effective" alone and just had it amplify base armor, then armor would be a pointless buy on low armor champions like ADCs and mages, who while not meant to stack resistances should get at least one item.

Sure, but that is a combination of stats that is meant to be bound to fighters. Resists are not bound to tanks, and resist+health items can be used very efficiently by fighters (some, like DMP, are even intended for fighters). Moreover, this only adds to the problem, as several more modern tanks have been designed to scale with AD items as well, e.g. Sion, Poppy and Ornn.

Sion and Poppy are the only tanks really designed to scale with AD. Ornn's Q while having an AD scaling, doesn't really help him all that much. He's scalings are all over the place so that people don't even try to make use of them and focus more on his durability.

That's all very nice, but the net result is still the same. Tank and fighter items overlap far too heavily, as do tanks and fighters, and so it is difficult to design an item for one class without it risking getting exploited by the other.

I agree, but I think the fault is more in fighters than tanks as their class was pretty similar for the longest time (and while tanks weren't the most diverse, balancing them felt a lot simpler. Fighters have this problem of becoming high damage tanks or incredibly durable assassins. They are meant to be a middle ground, but that middle ground feels like it's balanced on a small point).

Teridax68Jul 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

It's possible that they do rely in the mechanics. Armor and MR without health isn't really that effective, but if you made it "effective" alone and just had it amplify base armor, then armor would be a pointless buy on low armor champions like ADCs and mages, who while not meant to stack resistances should get at least one item.

Okay, but then why are you pushing squishy damage-dealers to make good use of a stat intended to be used primarily by tanks? If they really need defenses, would it not be simpler and more effective to give them defenses that work just for them? Stats like life steal, omnivamp, and defensive actives on damage items like Zhonya's already achieve this.

{quoted}

Sion and Poppy are the only tanks really designed to scale with AD. Ornn's Q while having an AD scaling, doesn't really help him all that much. He's scalings are all over the place so that people don't even try to make use of them and focus more on his durability.

It nonetheless lets him get some value from early damage picks. Moreover, by your own admission, Sion and Poppy scale with AD. My point stands.

{quoted}

I agree, but I think the fault is more in fighters than tanks as their class was pretty similar for the longest time (and while tanks weren't the most diverse, balancing them felt a lot simpler. Fighters have this problem of becoming high damage tanks or incredibly durable assassins. They are meant to be a middle ground, but that middle ground feels like it's balanced on a small point).

I personally think the problem lies with both classes, as many tanks have turned into fighters with more CC (e.g. Galio), but I agree. This nonetheless still calls for more differentiation, as unless we start defining clear separations between the two classes, we will continue to have excessive overlap. Binding different stats to these classes would be a start.

RalanrJul 3, 20182 votes

The problem with directly binding over encouraging is that it reduces item diversity.

Most people don’t build crit because it doesn’t benefit them, but they still can get a kick out of it in building it. From my understanding, you’re suggesting that tanks should be the only class that benefits from resistances, making other classes trying to get something out of it (like with GA or Hourglass) pointless or wasteful.

Honestly juggernauts and tanks are going to share items often. I don’t think Riot can really prevent that. Best they can do is better encourage one to build the other, and I don’t think just giving tanks items primarily resistances would be that beneficial. Tanks need health also.

Teridax68Jul 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

The problem with directly binding over encouraging is that it reduces item diversity.

Most people don’t build crit because it doesn’t benefit them, but they still can get a kick out of it in building it. From my understanding, you’re suggesting that tanks should be the only class that benefits from resistances, making other classes trying to get something out of it (like with GA or Hourglass) pointless or wasteful.

... and when they do, they get reported for trolling, and when that happens, Riot generally sides with the people who landed the report, because going for a crit build on Singed or whatever is considered actively detrimental to the experience of the team. The problem with item diversity in League is that it's fake, plain and simple. It's possible to go for kooky off-builds, and the devs may sometimes tease the possibility of off-builds via secondary scalings, but with only a handful of exceptions, most champions are expressly funnelled into purchasing from only a limited set of stats, outside of which they're much less able to contribute. If they happen to do well with an unintended off-build, that often carries negative implications to balance or their health, which then pushes Riot to actively discourage them to go for those builds, a.k.a. with assassins and health stacking. "Item diversity", or the pretense of it, is not an excuse to keep a real part of League's design in a sub-par state.

{quoted}

Honestly juggernauts and tanks are going to share items often. I don’t think Riot can really prevent that. Best they can do is better encourage one to build the other, and I don’t think just giving tanks items primarily resistances would be that beneficial. Tanks need health also.

Why? Why do tanks need health? Why do they need to overlap with juggernauts? Both classes may be durable, but are meant to operate in fundamentally different ways. If a tank can efficiently build like a juggernaut, or vice versa, that only proves that there is insufficient difference in their items, and the playstyles those are meant to encourage. Why can't tanks be allowed to scale off of resists instead of health?

RalanrJul 3, 20182 votes

Because resistances alone would most likely snowball too hard against their respective damage types. Health allows you to build two walls of defense that have significant weaknesses. If they scaled only with resistances then you’d have to make one wall to compensate which would end up proving too strong early.

Teridax68Jul 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Because resistances alone would most likely snowball too hard against their respective damage types. Health allows you to build two walls of defense that have significant weaknesses. If they scaled only with resistances then you’d have to make one wall to compensate which would end up proving too strong early.

Isn't it the complete opposite? Stacking health and resists at the same time causes your durability to spike quadratically each time, which makes your defenses scale much quicker than if you had just resists. Additionally, if you scaled with both resists, that would be functionally the same as scaling with health, bar the exception of true/max health damage.

RalanrJul 3, 20182 votes

Not as I see it. You have to make the resists good enough to compensate without the health they once had. Plus not every game gives the luxury of building equal amounts of armor and MR, so having scalings on both resists holds it back. This is why health scaling works to a degree because you’ll always be building health.

RalanrJul 3, 20182 votes

But you might end up over specializing.

Though I don’t believe tanks should scale well. They tend to pop off in teamfights better than other champions but fall off when anti tank items are built. But even when armor pen is built, a tank can still tank on some level due to the health they buy.

RalanrJul 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Over specializing how? You'd still be itemizing against magic and physical damage as needed.

Maybe I’m seeing this wrong. So far I’m thinking that you want tank abilities to also have mr and armor scalings. The abilities would end up being weaker if they can’t build those resistances at the right amount. So against an all armor team their abilities won’t do as much as they would against a mixed team.

It also effects durability against a mixed team. Without health, heavy armor builds would fall flat to magic. And sometimes you need to build more armor than magic resist, making you somewhat weaker. The health makes it so you’re not just butter.

RalanrJul 3, 20182 votes

Ornn does have this yes, but it’s also on the ability he maxes last as far as I’ve notuced.
You don’t always get that option though. Let’s say you’re in top and your opponent is AD but their jungler is AP. If you build armor then you’re a super easy target for the jungler. In bot you’ll get shredded by the Support as they primarily deal magic damage.

Hell, you’ll have a difficulty in jungle as you’ll have nothing to reduce the magic from blue and gromp. Health is the base that defense is built off of. Tanks need it on top of resistances.

Teridax68Jul 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Ornn does have this yes, but it’s also on the ability he maxes last as far as I’ve notuced.

Why is Ornn's maxing order relevant to the notion of adding more resist scalings to tanks?

{quoted}

You don’t always get that option though. Let’s say you’re in top and your opponent is AD but their jungler is AP. If you build armor then you’re a super easy target for the jungler. In bot you’ll get shredded by the Support as they primarily deal magic damage.

Then it's a tradeoff. This could probably call for more flexible item options that would allow players to build both resists at once, though we already have items like Aegis that do just that.

{quoted}

Hell, you’ll have a difficulty in jungle as you’ll have nothing to reduce the magic from blue and gromp.

Blue buff deals physical damage, not magic damage. I fail to see why the entirety of itemization should be prevented from changing, just because one monster that is not essential to clearing happens to deal a different damage type (which could be easily changed).

{quoted}

Health is the base that defense is built off of. Tanks need it on top of resistances.

What does that even mean? Health and resists both feed into a champion's health bar, one isn't magically more important than the other. Trying to justify tanks needing to stack health by saying tanks currently stack health is a pretty circular argument.

nGioJul 3, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEIoqcou,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-07-03T04:49:15.534+0000)

Tanks are mostly fine.

I haven't seen a tank in the jungle in probably 2 months. With the exception of Sej, tanks weren't 'fine' last season. They sure as shit aren't 'fine' right now. Tank items are overpriced and a lot are attached to bullshit conditions, and damage is fucking absurd right now. The only good thing about tanks being worthless right now is that we don't need ADCs chipping them down with LWs, so at least there's some variety.

remakoroJul 3, 20185 votes

The issue is that tank items get poached by fighters when they are good and fighters do not need to be unkillable. They are monsters when they are unkillable.

Why is that an issue? If im ahead and i dont want to gamble why i cant purchase defensive items to make my contribution more reliable by preventing random oneshots that can happen if you get hit by stray CC? It actually was a common sense some time before. To never go full glass cannon. To get defensive items if you are far ahead. Cuz you are oneshotting anyway so you just eliminate any chances for enemies to make a comeback by preventing them from making lucky kills. Now its just silly. You lose a lot and aint gaining shit. One might think that in this meta with abundance of dmg one might be able to spare some slots for defensive items. But in reality those items just dont work. So you wont even bother. You just go for more dmg to kill everyone by using 2 of your spells instead of 3.

JbelsJul 3, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Why is that an issue? If im ahead and i dont want to gamble why i cant purchase defensive items to make my contribution more reliable by preventing random oneshots that can happen if you get hit by stray CC? It actually was a common sense some time before. To never go full glass cannon. To get defensive items if you are far ahead. Cuz you are oneshotting anyway so you just eliminate any chances for enemies to make a comeback by preventing them from making lucky kills. Now its just silly. You lose a lot and aint gaining shit. One might think that in this meta with abundance of dmg one might be able to spare some slots for defensive items. But in reality those items just dont work. So you wont even bother. You just go for more dmg to kill everyone by using 2 of your spells instead of 3.

I have a counter question. When did players start believing that risk versus reward was optional in game design? If you're a fed fighter, chances are you're going to win due to how much damage you'll do from being ahead in levels and items. Why then are you allowed to remove any possibility that you'll lose your lead by nullifying the consequences of making mistakes (such as being caught out)? This is supposed to be a game in which 2 teams compete against each other. I defy to give me an example of something more infuriating than a mechanic in a game that allows you to stay ahead of the other team with no chance for a come back. Tank items shouldn't be built on fighters because "Why can't I make current advantage a win condition?".

DW DianaJul 3, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=The God of Rams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEIoqcou,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-03T02:45:45.628+0000)

Gonna say this again, especially now that multiple people seem to be focusing on it. Tank Items need an overhaul. They are extremely unsatisfactory to buy and with so many innate ways to ignore defense these days, hardly feel like they are making you any more durable. The only champions these days that feel durable these days are the ones with innate defensive mechanics that don't require them to have items to work, so why even build defensive items? The few defensive items built are hardly ever bought for the stats they provide and more for some insane active/passive effect they have, and, even worse, those active/passive effects are hardly ever defensive based. Some are, but those items are few and far in between and, even worse, often require you to build other defensive items to be worth it (like Locket and Gargoyle's).

Defensive items aren't used for defense anymore, just for really good passive/active effects that help your champion deal more damage (Sunfire, Deadman's, Abyssal), shield other allies (Locket, Knight's Vow), or some extremely strong synergy with your kit (Righteous Glory, Spirit Visage, Iceborn Gauntlet). OR they are situational and only work a fourth of the time (Randuin's, Thornmail, Adaptive Helm). Only two that are just pure self-defenses is Gargoyle's (as said, that requires you to invest into defensive items as a build which, as mentioned, isn't worth it) and Warmog's, which ALSO requires an investment in more health.

I really disagree. I understand what you are saying, but right now I think for TANKS to becomes TANKS again, they need changes directly. I'm not saying "rework them all!" because their kits are actually not bad, it's the tankiness that sucks, so this is where riot should be focusing for them. They need far less damage (they're tanks, not carries) but in return should have a large amount of base scaling for their armour, MR and health to compliment the items that already exist.

My reasoning for this is because tank items can and will be bought by almost any AD top laner (AP items really rely on you having even more AP items to back them up which kinda sucks, so you have to choose tank or damage). Take Irelia for example. She builds triforce (scales naturally). She builds Titanic (scales off tank) and/or steraks (scales off tank). Then she goes tank. She already has a fair amount of tankiness from those items anyway, then going tank makes her even MORE tanky, while having huge burst as well. Buffing the tank items would also buff HER. This isn't just Irelia, this is ANYONE who gets 1 or 2 damage items then goes tank, and that's a LOT of top laners.

Want tanks to be tankier, GREAT! But don't buff ALL top laners in the hopes there might be benefit for them because they'll just end up worse off.

Meep ManJul 3, 20184 votes

Sterak's doesn't scale offensively off tank, so that's not an issue. The only issue here is Titanic. Also, I haven't seen an Irelia build mostly full Tank in a long time to be honest.

Also, every Top Laner right now that goes 1-2 damage items and then pure Tank is actually performing pretty dang bad. The best Top Laners are the ones that build several items that grant offensive bonuses along with very minor defensive ups, like Trinity Force, Sterak's, Titanic, Black Cleaver, Dead Man's Plate, and Sunfire Cape. The only Top Laners that build pure or mostly pure Tank now are Cho'Gath, Ornn, Mundo, and Maokai. The rest build mostly damage items with enough minor defensive boosts sprinkled in to make them not die to Marksman basic attacks. If you can find me a successful Top Lane champion that solely builds Trinity and maybe one other offensive item then goes PURE TANK (not Sunfire, Dead Man's, or Abyssal because you don't build those for Tank, you build those because they have the added bonus of giving Tank stats along with their effects) and isn't one of the champions I named, you'd have surprised me.

DW DianaJul 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The God of Rams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEIoqcou,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2018-07-03T09:43:35.124+0000)

Sterak's doesn't scale offensively off tank, so that's not an issue. The only issue here is Titanic. Also, I haven't seen an Irelia build mostly full Tank in a long time to be honest.

Steraks works of BASE AD which scales with level, and Bonus HP which scales of tank items. Thus it scales both as a damage item and as a tank item. Irelia was used as an example in this case because she can easily go 2 items in tank (and often do) without negative impact.

Also, every Top Laner right now that goes 1-2 damage items and then pure Tank is actually performing pretty dang bad. The best Top Laners are the ones that build several items that grant offensive bonuses along with very minor defensive ups, like Trinity Force, Sterak's, Titanic, Black Cleaver, Dead Man's Plate, and Sunfire Cape. The only Top Laners that build pure or mostly pure Tank now are Cho'Gath, Ornn, Mundo, and Maokai. The rest build mostly damage items with enough minor defensive boosts sprinkled in to make them not die to Marksman basic attacks. If you can find me a successful Top Lane champion that solely builds Trinity and maybe one other offensive item then goes PURE TANK (not Sunfire, Dead Man's, or Abyssal because you don't build those for Tank, you build those because they have the added bonus of giving Tank stats along with their effects) and isn't one of the champions I named, you'd have surprised me.

I think you're confused as to what are TANK items... Sunfire for example is a TANK item. It does a little AOE damage for helping clear waves, but mainly it is tank. Same for abyssal, it increases magic damage within a small radius around you, so your mages can do bonus damage while you are in the fray, but otherwise it is clearly for tanks. Deadman's grants mobility, but is STILL a tank item.

I think where we're getting wires crossed is what you consider a TANK item. A tank item to me is one that gives only defensive stats (thus being a tank item). They might had a passive that does something damagey like sunfire or deadmans or thornmail, but the STATS on them are clearly for a tank (HP, Armour, MR, HP regen etc).

When you start thinking along those lines, you realise "but wait, almost all of those items can be built by divers, juggernauts, bruisers and anyone else AD in top lane!" and hopefully my comment will make sense to you.

Meep ManJul 3, 20183 votes

Is an item really a Tank item if it's mostly built by Fighters? Because if other Tank items actually notably boosted your defenses, then Tanks wouldn't consider Sunfire Cape an option since it doesn't help them with their intended role almost at all.

Also, my point still stands that, even if Fighters build said Tank items, it wouldn't boost their power much from now as currently they hardly build any of the pure Tank items.

DW DianaJul 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The God of Rams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEIoqcou,comment-id=0004000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-03T18:36:55.196+0000)

Is an item really a Tank item if it's mostly built by Fighters? Because if other Tank items actually notably boosted your defenses, then Tanks wouldn't consider Sunfire Cape an option since it doesn't help them with their intended role almost at all.

You forget tanks also need to clear minion waves. This is why sunfire cape is bought.

Also, my point still stands that, even if Fighters build said Tank items, it wouldn't boost their power much from now as currently they hardly build any of the pure Tank items.

Pure Tank = lacking damaging stats. item 3001 item 3194 item 3383 item 3742 item 1413 item 3373 item 3110 item 3193 item 3143 item 3065 item 3068 item 3075 item 3083 item 3512 item 3050

Almost every fighter builds 2+ of these in their standard build. Buffing them would make fighters more tanky without negatively impacting their damage (actually it would help them scale MORE thanks to item 3748 and item 3053 ). Thereby buffing these would also buff fighters.

Giving tanks more base armour, hp and mr and their growth while cutting their damage would affect only tanks.

Meep ManJul 3, 20182 votes

Pure Tank Item = I'm building this item to help improve my role as a tank by taking more damage and allowing me to apply more crowd control (Built by mostly Tanks and those with strong synergy with said items)

item 3194 item 3110 item 3193 item 3109 item 3190 item 3143 item 3800 item 3065 item 3075 item 3083

Off-Tank Item = I'm building this item to boost my offensive power while also increasing my survivability by a noticeable amount (Built by a combination of Tanks and Fighters as supplemental items, usually choosing between them based on kit synergies)

item 3001 item 3742 item 1401 item 3022 item 3025 item 3027 item 3068

Utility Tank Item = I'm building this for the utility provides and it's only referred as a tank item because the stats it gives are defensive, which is usually the universal stat that everyone can make use of (Built by Supports and “Pusher” champions)

item 3401 item 3056 item 3050 item 3512

DW DianaJul 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The God of Rams,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEIoqcou,comment-id=000400000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-07-03T19:16:03.301+0000)

Pure Tank Item = I'm building this item to help improve my role as a tank by taking more damage and allowing me to apply more crowd control (Built by mostly Tanks and those with strong synergy with said items)

Off-Tank Item = I'm building this item to boost my offensive power while also increasing my survivability by a noticeable amount (Built by a combination of Tanks and Fighters as supplemental items, usually choosing between them based on kit synergies)

Utility Tank Item = I'm building this for the utility provides and it's only referred as a tank item because the stats it gives are defensive, which is usually the universal stat that everyone can make use of (Built by Supports and “Pusher” champions)

So which ones would you change? Just the pure tank? item 3143 item 3065 item 3075 all get built by fighters more often then most of your off tank items, while item 3068 is standard for wave pushing on several tanks. There isn't an option to say "No fighters can build this item" and as they are gaining as much/more from the "pure" tank items, buffing them would also buff the fighters you're trying not to buff...

Meep ManJul 3, 20182 votes

I'd make Tank items more like item 3193 where the items that provide the most durability actually discourage you to deal decent damage.

item 3065 and item 3075 I'd say are two items that are in a decent spot. item 3068 has always been a weird, almost must by item for most durability-focused Fighters and Tanks, so I'd look into seeing why that is and helping in ways that don't force players to build Sunfire, as well as making Sunfire a more complex item than "Everyone around me takes damage." Randuin's should be one of the key defensive Armor items, so I think it'd be an item that encourages defensive behavior and discourages offensive.

kurnubegoJul 3, 20182 votes

Juggernauts are carries as is their role is to do damage (Darius, Mundo, Olaf, Garen etc). They are not tanks. When we are talking tanks we are speaking champions like Moakai, Nautilus or Shen. Also Steraks was originally designed to be used by Juggernauts. It also now gives bonus, not base. Since 8.12 I think.

Also if you are this .. philosophy proponent that tanks should do no damage if they don't build such, how about removing any kind of life steal from carries, because it is de facto tank stat. Why should they be able to build both with single direction of itemization huh? Gunblade, Ruined King, Bloodthirster, Death Dance. We could also remove sustain from abilities.

DragonSheaJul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts are carries as is their role is to do damage (Darius, Mundo, Olaf, Garen etc). They are not tanks. When we are talking tanks we are speaking champions like Moakai, Nautilus or Shen. Also Steraks was originally designed to be used by Juggernauts. It also now gives bonus, not base. Since 8.12 I think.

Also if you are this .. philosophy proponent that tanks should do no damage if they don't build such, how about removing any kind of life steal from carries, because it is de facto tank stat. Why should they be able to build both with single direction of itemization huh? Gunblade, Ruined King, Bloodthirster, Death Dance. We could also remove sustain from abilities.

Juggs are peseou/off tanks. They have the same durability as tanks should have but higher damage, the trade off is that juggs can't peel or engage on their own so if they can get in the enemy game it's GG. In addition they also lack Utility apart from a few select ones and doesn't offer much but tankiness(LUL in this meta) and damage.

PB4UAMEJul 4, 20182 votes

Look up what RIOT has said on Juggernauts, particularly their two official "subclasses" posts. In every case they describe them as a carry class that trades reliability, mobility, and target access, for target agnostic damage, sustain, and the durability to remain in a fight as they do not have the tools to leave one once they're in.

They are an entirely offensive class, and do not serve, nor function in a defensive or "tank"-like manner, just as Skirmishers are also carries despite having the strongest defensive abilities in the entire game. They have those defenses so that they can do damage, not so they can protect allies.

DragonSheaJul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Look up what RIOT has said on Juggernauts, particularly their two official "subclasses" posts. In every case they describe them as a carry class that trades reliability, mobility, and target access, for target agnostic damage, sustain, and the durability to remain in a fight as they do not have the tools to leave one once they're in.

They are an entirely offensive class, and do not serve, nor function in a defensive or "tank"-like manner, just as Skirmishers are also carries despite having the strongest defensive abilities in the entire game. They have those defenses so that they can do damage, not so they can protect allies.

{quoted}

Sorry, but you're just demonstrably wrong, as one board participant already pointed out.

Yes, yes they are not, people misunderstand my point. what I am saying is that Juggs are supposed to have the durability of tanks or at least rival it while having insane damage. Of fucking course they are gonna suck at peeling. FFS just look at Mundo. Before the juggernaut update he was considered a tank, but could he tank properly? FUCK. NO! Those Cleavers couldn't help him get into the enemy team or stop them from dividing his own.

Like I say earlier, Juggs are as durable as tanks but don't have the kit to tank as it's geared towards damage and not engage(vanguard) or peeling(Warden). That is why I said they are Pseudo tanks. The only way you are gonna have a decent frontline with a jugg as your only durabile champ is if you got an Enchanter like Lulu or Jaina or catchers like Morgana or Rakhan. However you will be better off just having a proper tank because that tactic is too risky.

Juggs are true frontlines like tanks because they build tanking to be in a fight, Divers can't frontline despite having good durability. nor can skirmisher either due to them not having selfish defensive abilities meant to keep them from dying and help them continue dealing damage. I am no saying that Juggs are tanks, I am saying that they share key traits with them but at the same time also lack some as well.

Skirmisher's defensive tools are only there to stop a single crucial attack from hitting them and prevent them from getting nuked but they ain't gonna last long if they still getting focused. They are bruisers but not fighters( Bruiser are melee damage dealers that want to fight upfront. Fighter are melees with good durability). The only real purely offensive class are: Fighters(Divers only), Slayers, Mages and Marksmen.

If juggs are meant to be a purely offensive class then they shouldn't even need to build tanky and we might as well give them long dashes.

DW DianaJul 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts are carries as is their role is to do damage (Darius, Mundo, Olaf, Garen etc). They are not tanks. When we are talking tanks we are speaking champions like Moakai, Nautilus or Shen. Also Steraks was originally designed to be used by Juggernauts. It also now gives bonus, not base. Since 8.12 I think.

Yes i know this, and with steraks it depends on which change you mean (Bonus AD was 8.12, the bonus HP scaling on the shield was LONG before that). I'm not sure how that changes the fact that if you buff ANY items from the "tank" list, you are in essence also buffing anyone that builds either Steraks or Titanic.

Also if you are this .. philosophy proponent that tanks should do no damage if they don't build such, how about removing any kind of life steal from carries, because it is de facto tank stat. Why should they be able to build both with single direction of itemization huh? Gunblade, Ruined King, Bloodthirster, Death Dance. We could also remove sustain from abilities.

I'm not saying tanks should do no damage, I'm saying they should do LESS damage then they currently do. They only need to do so much damage because they lack tankiness, so if they are to gain more tankiness, there has to be a trade off. With regards to lifesteal, I main mages and have to do without any healing beyond my potions, so others could too though I fear this is more an attempt at retaliation rather then a real suggestion, like me saying "well if tanks are tanky then they don't need any CC because that's a mage stat. Lifesteal is clearly not a tank stat as fuck all tanks build it.

kurnubegoJul 4, 20181 votes

Which tanks exactly do a lot of damage? We don't count early game until people have at least two times, because that's time before any character specializes. Lets say at two and a half items mark.

CC/Utility is main tank tool (depending on subclass). "Tanks" who have little cc aren't tanks, those are commonly juggernauts, who are DAMAGE carries. They pay for their high damage and ability to eat a lot of damage by low mobility and poor target access. They are commonly bullies in lane too, unless you play ranged champion because they can simply overpower most other champions. That's Darius, Mundo, Garen, Volibear.

Tanks are Shen, Nautilus, Rammus, Maokai.

DW DianaJul 4, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Which tanks exactly do a lot of damage? We don't count early game until people have at least two times, because that's time before any character specializes. Lets say at two and a half items mark.

"Which tanks exactly do a lot of damage? We don't count the bit taht they do high daage in but prefer to focus on the point where everyone else has managed to catch up through scaling."

I short, ALL of them do too much damage early, and aren't tanky enough throughout.

CC/Utility is main tank tool (depending on subclass). "Tanks" who have little cc aren't tanks, those are commonly juggernauts, who are DAMAGE carries. They pay for their high damage and ability to eat a lot of damage by low mobility and poor target access. They are commonly bullies in lane too, unless you play ranged champion because they can simply overpower most other champions. That's Darius, Mundo, Garen, Volibear.

Yeah, when I think of under-powered i always think of Daruis, Mundo, Garen and Volibear.... Tehy are more tanky then tanks, do more damage then anyone, and tend to be more mobile as well. They all also have CC...

Tanks are Shen, Nautilus, Rammus, Maokai.

Yeah I know who the tanks are, just look for the ones that have huge early damage, then fall off in every way mid/late game. Want that to change? Give up some of that pointless early damage...

kurnubegoJul 4, 20181 votes

Sorry but I don't see you laying down arguments. Just frustrations.

Yeah, when I think of under-powered i always think of Daruis, Mundo, Garen and Volibear.... Tehy are more tanky then tanks, do >more damage then anyone, and tend to be more mobile as well. They all also have CC...

Primary role of these champions is to do DAMAGE. These are CARRIES. The price they pay for it is target access. However, target access isn't all that huge when you're 1v1 in lane that's why they become lane bullies.

They aren't tanky early either, so they do some damage. Just as pretty much anyone else.

Honestly how much though you've put into this other than just being upset about perceived unfairness? How much you think roles should stand out? How much of a purist specialists champions must be. What is ok damage for a tank? 1/2 hp ? 1/3 hp of a squish in quick rotation?

Do you know what juggernauts are and what's they role in the game? Can you tell a difference between Sejuani and Garen other than both preferably building tank items? The way you deal with a juggenaut is not by outdamaging them, because they have high damage and supposed to have it, but by not allowing yourself to be close to them.

Not to come as offensive, but I see these posts again and again and again and it doesn't seem that people really put the effort to learn, read and analyse. Do you watch lcs at least?

JbelsJul 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qEIoqcou,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2018-07-03T09:19:46.268+0000)

I really disagree. I understand what you are saying, but right now I think for TANKS to becomes TANKS again, they need changes directly. I'm not saying "rework them all!" because their kits are actually not bad, it's the tankiness that sucks, so this is where riot should be focusing for them. They need far less damage (they're tanks, not carries) but in return should have a large amount of base scaling for their armour, MR and health to compliment the items that already exist.

My reasoning for this is because tank items can and will be bought by almost any AD top laner (AP items really rely on you having even more AP items to back them up which kinda sucks, so you have to choose tank or damage). Take Irelia for example. She builds triforce (scales naturally). She builds Titanic (scales off tank) and/or steraks (scales off tank). Then she goes tank. She already has a fair amount of tankiness from those items anyway, then going tank makes her even MORE tanky, while having huge burst as well. Buffing the tank items would also buff HER. This isn't just Irelia, this is ANYONE who gets 1 or 2 damage items then goes tank, and that's a LOT of top laners.

Want tanks to be tankier, GREAT! But don't buff ALL top laners in the hopes there might be benefit for them because they'll just end up worse off.

Changing tanks directly is NOT the solution. We tried that once, and it ruined them. Tank items should be the focus here. They see way too much use by fighters to become unkillable killing machines (That thing people were calling actual tanks and the reason tanks were gutted in the first place). If you change tanks directly instead of the items, the only thing that happens is that fighters stay at the same level of brokenness they are now, and tanks will most likely be broken for a patch until they're nerfed back to where they started, or will be nerfed into the ground by direct changes (because Riot doesn't understand what they're even doing anymore), and they will slowly be buffed back to where they are now.

FIGHTERS are the reason tank items are bad right now, not tanks.

DW DianaJul 3, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Changing tanks directly is NOT the solution. We tried that once, and it ruined them. Tank items should be the focus here. They see way too much use by fighters to become unkillable killing machines (That thing people were calling actual tanks and the reason tanks were gutted in the first place). If you change tanks directly instead of the items, the only thing that happens is that fighters stay at the same level of brokenness they are now, and tanks will most likely be broken for a patch until they're nerfed back to where they started, or will be nerfed into the ground by direct changes (because Riot doesn't understand what they're even doing anymore), and they will slowly be buffed back to where they are now.

FIGHTERS are the reason tank items are bad right now, not tanks.

I see what you are saying but buffing tank items would just help the fighters even more... Tanks need to do less damage (the reason for previous nerfs) and be allowed to regain their tankiness (MR/Armour/HP).

Here's an old example from last season in midlane:

Malzahar (pre mini rework) vs Galio (post rework).

Malzahar could NOT kill Galio unless Galio REALLY fucked up. Galio could NOT kill Malzahar unless Malzahar REALLY fucked up. It was a standoff between a tank and a carry which was exactly right.

Compare this to tank vs carry in toplane atm, tank is dead... There is no standoff. There is just simple annihilation. So why buff items that BOTH toplaners will build?