for the love of god, remove lees w/flash ult combo

Critmaster Garen·May 12, 2017·55 votes·2,593 views

just nerf him into the ground like eve, urgot and olaf until you rework him.

i want a rioter to come right here and explain to me how to counterplay his flash ult combo with the fucking mini stun attached and why this shit by all your design standarts is still in the game. any monkey can pull of reliable ganks with that champion after a couple of games with him. it has absolutely nothing to do with skill.

how are you supposed to deal with his ability to always get into range for a point blank q/ult if youre not hypermobile yourself?

either let us flash during his ult animation aswell, so we can counter this bullshit somehow, or remove the entire champion from the playing field.

the cooldown nerf on the ability wont add counterplay to his combos.

you absolutely dumpstered for their flash engages/interactions. i dont understand why lee gets special treatment.

80 Comments

BALDG1VEN BOOMERMay 12, 201718 votes

I thought everyone was happy with those PBE nerfs, well I don't see it changing much about Lee so yeah he's always getting love taps.

If anything they should remove that stun he has before his ult actually channels.

NvestmentPlankerMay 13, 20171 votes

increase ult CD at rank one by 20 seconds is a love tap?

BALDG1VEN BOOMERMay 13, 20171 votes

Lee doesn't really need his ultimate early levels if he's going for an invade or pre 6 gank, even after 6 he could still chunk a significant amount without the use of his ultimate as black Cleaver is usually an item rushed after Jungle item in order to keep his damage up early.

20 Seconds may seems like a lot on paper but when you're playing the change will not effect him that much because if you're patient enough with ganking or cooldowns 20 seconds isn't much.

Also it isn't much of a change considering it's only down 10 seconds at rank 2, and depending on the pace of game sometimes you'll get rank 2 ultimate before laning is over.

Darkdemon653May 12, 201710 votes

It needs to be removed from everyone. Actions should not be allowed to be taken while in the middle of another action without completely overriding the first action.

An Enemy SutandoMay 12, 20176 votes

Riven

Critmaster GarenMay 12, 201710 votes

the problem with lees "outplays" is, that youre literally just target practise for the guy playing him. if hes successful or not doesnt depend on how well you play against him, but how well he trained his combo.

if a lee sin player is practised enough on the champion, there is absolutely nothing you can do from preventing him to turret dive you with a w + flash + r +q, q combo to kick you into his buddy, no matter how good you are on your champion.

unless youre playing a very spcific set of champions like Fiora or someone else with untargetability and predict his combo.

its infuriating.

Dusk Mane RengarMay 12, 201710 votes

the problem with lees "outplays" is, that youre literally just target practise for the guy playing him. if hes successful or not doesnt depend on how well you play against him, but how well he trained his combo.

When people says things like this it makes me understand why LoL's balance is so shit.

yesnobananaMay 12, 201713 votes

Contrary to popular belief LOL's balance isn't shit when you look at other games.

Critmaster GarenMay 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Contrary to popular belief LOL's balance isn't shit when you look at other games.

it still has shitty cases like this. the problem is that riot dosnt seem to regard lee as an issue, because they dont seem to understand that just because the champion takes practise to do his standart combos doesnt mean he has decent enough counterplay once the player has learned these combos.

basically lee players have found ways to minimize enemy counterplay to a point where his reliability is absurd.

a lot of his damage potential is in his q for example. and the effectiveness of the ability is supposed to be a mix of the lee being able to hit it, and his enemy to dodge it.

but when lee can just use the ability point blank every single time by gapclosing in his opponents face, then he entirely denies his opponent the chance to dodge it.

its similar with his ult. flash simply negates your ability to reposition against it. a practised lee player can easily flash into a position where he always kicks you into a position of his chosing, without giving you a chance to react to this move in any shape or form.

Dusk Mane RengarMay 12, 20171 votes

it still has shitty cases like this. the problem is that riot dosnt seem to regard lee as an issue, because they dont seem to understand that just because the champion takes practise to do his standart combos doesnt mean he has decent enough counterplay once the player has learned these combos.

What the hell?

So you are telling me that a guy who spend their time practise shouldn't be able to achieve an effective tactic.

There are 1000 reason why Lee should get nerfed, getting a good movement after practising is not one of them.

Again when you peole say those things i really understand why Lol is so bad balanced.

3TWarriorMay 13, 20171 votes

the problem is that is not the case

let's say lee sin is a beefy martial artist and a point and click or targetless champion is a trained marksman with a handgun

if "lee" can get close, he can utterly annihilate the marksman, but, this should not be the case in most situations

in most cases, a player is not going to be near the bushes where lee could justifiably crush them unless he hides in the very bottom bushes or gets to be behind them(which presents the problems of junglers dictating how a game is played where a good jungler wins and a bad jungler loses the game for you )

what makes this a problem, however is that lee's combo collectively has a range of 1525 in optimal conditions but if we cut that it still comes to roughly 1225 400(ward) 450(flash) 375(lee's ult)

both of those ranges are tied to flash's cooldown but put it this way, twisted fate and nidalee are the only champions I can think of with 1500 range in standard abilities and neither of which has crowd control AND displacement attached to it

twisted fate can have his gold card but its able to be negated and leaves him excessively vulnerable

nidalee can do large poke damage but unless she is in close quarters will not execute a champion with her abilities except for the rare case of a Q getting enough distance for a low HP champ

FourVsFiveMay 12, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Contrary to popular belief LOL's balance isn't shit when you look at other games.

then why are there so many different champs used in pro play in Dota, vs like only 40 or some in LoL pro play out of the 140 or so champs.

ShaolinToiletMay 12, 20172 votes

Cause DotA balances around pro play

EndlessSorcererMay 12, 20171 votes

AFAIK, DotA balances almost entirely around pro-play.

The general opinion regarding pub-stompers dominating lower ranks is "stop sucking'.

FourVsFiveMay 12, 20171 votes

{quoted}

AFAIK, DotA balances almost entirely around pro-play.

The general opinion regarding pub-stompers dominating lower ranks is "stop sucking'.

So why not balance around pro play? People would actual be pro with there main, instead be like oh i cant progress further cause my champ not in the top 40.

AnidanMay 12, 20173 votes

The problem is not everyone wants League to be balanced around pro play. DotA, under IceFrog, has had the direction of being balanced around high-level play and the potential of heroes rather than necessarily what everyone else can do essentially from the beginning of IceFrog's tenure. He wasn't going to meander around trying to balance for both amateurs and pros because that causes inherent problems (how long has it been since you've seen Heimerdinger or Yi in pro play?).

League has 3 options, and that is continue on their path of trying to please both pros and amateur, which keeps these inherent issues; throw their pro scene to the wolves and balance for amateur play; or force amateur players to grow into the pro-level balance. Everyone has their own opinions of which it should be and there is no real "right" answer. IceFrog's system works for DotA, but there's no guarantee that pro balancing will work for League.

JaxMoonStealerMay 12, 20171 votes

This. It might also be one of the reasons why League's player base is what, 10 times larger than DotA's?

AnidanMay 13, 20171 votes

Essentially, yeah. You're not going to steal DotA's players away from DotA by trying to balance like DotA, because they have DotA for that, so I personally think League should probably aim more for the retention of amateur players, but again, there's no "right" answer.

My mind used to be that League should balance toward high-level play, but it's kind of shifted. If people want a game balanced toward high-level play, they have that option. League doesn't need to be the kind of game that stretches itself thin to try to appease everyone, because as endearing as it is to see it care enough to try, it's ultimately harming itself in the long run to do so, I feel, and you're not likely to balance high level play better than DotA2 in this regard since it has far more it can reliably do to maintain that level of balance.

TheGoomyGamerMay 13, 20171 votes

if any player is very good at performing a specific combo you can expect them to execute it perfectly. If that results in you dying, git gud

Fed by Snu SnuMay 12, 20179 votes

Mini-suppress*

It's worse than a stun.

Dextix LTMay 12, 20171 votes

If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck , it is a duck.

They serve the same function, meaning they are the same.

RocketRelmMay 12, 20171 votes

Not reducible by tenacity, is the main thing. Theoretically, if you had enough Tenacity, you could flash out of it without cleanse.

LyndrisMay 12, 20172 votes

I thought you couldn't use summoners will suppressed, only select champ spells?

Votable JesterMay 13, 20171 votes

You can only use Gp's W, Ali's R, Olaf's R, and QSS/Scimitar

I think that's the whole list.

TheGoomyGamerMay 13, 20171 votes

Tryndamere's R because COUNTERPLAY amirite?

Votable JesterMay 14, 20171 votes

I mean in his current condition, if he couldn't ult during cc he'd be worthless.

Akali is SO HOTMay 13, 20174 votes

The difference between those 3 you listed and Lee Sin is that they don't have to be in melee range to use them. In fact, they use them to get into melee range to land their hard CC while Lee already has to be in melee range to do his flash combo. Lee would be kinda useless without his ward hop/flash ult combo because of how unreliable his ult would be especially without the root.

The flash combo isn't too hard to pull off with enough practice, but that has a high cooldown. The ward hop, on the other hand, takes quite a bit of skill to use. Ward hopping immediately after the Q lands at just the right angle (having to predict whether the enemy will try to run to) to ult the carry into your team is pretty hard to do especially late game. That's not taking into account that a lot of carries he's going after can use their mobility spells to avoid that sweet spot angle he's going for. If you look at a lot of the MSI games you can see this for yourself.

He's an early game champ, but he needs some way to stay relevant during the late game which is why he has his ward hop + ult combo. Otherwise, he would be pretty useless. You would have to completely rework him to take that away from him and Lee's kit really doesn't need that. I'm not a Lee Sin fanboy or anything, but suggesting to take away his flash/ward hop + ult combo is just silly.

RaiyzaMay 12, 20173 votes

I just don't like the mini stun. You should be able to counterplay it by flashing out in time/moving slightly over to mess up the kick. Top players can do the combo in the blink of an eye but that mini stun prevents reaction.

DuskDaUmbreonMay 12, 20173 votes

You want the ability to avoid his combo? Stay back from him, use CC, have some basic mobility, make it too risky for him to dive you, or simply kill him. Anything works. He has to flash or land his Q to ult you, and then he's still left in the middle of your team.

just nerf him into the ground like eve, urgot and olaf until you rework him.

That makes you sound less like you're trying to facilitate discussion, and more like 1M NaCl.

But, fine. I'll give you a chance. Name how he's actually broken. I'm serious. Name a legitimate reason he's broken, and I'll provide a legitimate response. Name one I can't respond to, and I'll admit he needs nerfs.

Critmaster GarenMay 12, 20175 votes

{quoted}

You want the ability to avoid his combo? Stay back from him, use CC, have some basic mobility, make it too risky for him to dive you, or simply kill him. Anything works. He has to flash or land his Q to ult you, and then he's still left in the middle of your team.

That makes you sound less like you're trying to facilitate discussion, and more like 1M NaCl.

But, fine. I'll give you a chance. Name how he's actually broken. I'm serious. Name a legitimate reason he's broken, and I'll provide a legitimate response. Name one I can't respond to, and I'll admit he needs nerfs.

read through the thread. i stated it multiple times.

the problem is that lee sin doesnt have counterplay. its basically a question of, does his player fuck up or does he pull off his combo clean on a gank? you, as his opponent dont have a say in the matter if you can avoid t or not. if he doesnt make a mistake then there is nothing you could do to prevent getting shit on. even if you played the situation perfectly yourself.

lee sin when optimal played doesnt give his opponent room for counterplay.

its the same issue with other flash interactions and why those champions got nerfed into the ground. they turned skillshots into direct target abilities by flashing onto the hitbox of their opponent mid dash.

gragas mid body slam flash, reksais flash into a knockup, or shens mid dash flashing into a taunt.

with lee sin its a similar problem. he easily manages to get into point blank range for his q, which makes the ability being a skillshot mute, and is able to flash into position for an ult and to adjust the direction of the ult. the mini cc attached to the kick doesnt even allow his opponent to react with a flash himself.

basically his ward hop into flash + ult + q, q cant be avoided on almost every single champion. there are only very few exceptions.

its these unavoidable flash combos that make lee insanely reliable on his ganks.

DuskDaUmbreonMay 12, 20173 votes

the problem is that lee sin doesnt have counterplay. its basically a question of, does his player fuck up or does he pull off his combo clean on a gank? you, as his opponent dont have a say in the matter if you can avoid t or not. if he doesnt make a mistake then there is nothing you could do to prevent getting shit on. even if you played the situation perfectly yourself.

You can outplay any part of it. You're able to dodge his initial part of his combo, if nothing else, and that entirely shuts down his potential. If he starts to go in, you start running. Or you use a stun mid-dash. I'll say it now, Ahri is the perfect counter to Lee Sin.

lee sin when optimal played doesnt give his opponent room for counterplay.

Same could be said of many champions. It's more true of some others than of Lee. Riven is the perfect example of this. Fiora is close behind. Fiora's skillshot is harder to avoid, and Riven has basically nothing that counts as avoidable, since her ult is stupid-wide. A perfectly played Riven leaves you no chance to win. But even a perfectly played Urgot is impossible to beat, that's the definition of perfectly played.

its the same issue with other flash interactions and why those champions got nerfed into the ground. they turned skillshots into direct target abilities by flashing onto the hitbox of their opponent mid dash.

gragas mid body slam flash, reksais flash into a knockup, or shens mid dash flashing into a taunt.

with lee sin its a similar problem. he easily manages to get into point blank range for his q, which makes the ability being a skillshot mute, and is able to flash into position for an ult and to adjust the direction of the ult. the mini cc attached to the kick doesnt even allow his opponent to react with a flash himself.

Gragas's is a heavy stun, with an AoE knockback. Lee can only kick one person. That leaves Gragas free to walk away, and Lee very susceptible to a Leona combo.

Rek'sai is a champion with a very easy escape, and, I do believe, has another AoE. I can't be certain, though, because I haven't seen Rek very much.

Shen's taunt also comes with invulernability, and can't be body-blocked…seeing a theme, here? Lee's kit leaves him very vulnerable. Shen, Gragas, and Rek'sai all have some saving mechanism in their kit, typically in the form of AoE CC. Yes, I know Lee can cripple the enemy team, but they're not silenced, so they can still stun and crush him.

basically his ward hop into flash + ult + q, q cant be avoided on almost every single champion. there are only very few exceptions.

its these unavoidable flash combos that make lee insanely reliably on his ganks.

Few champions can avoid it when he starts, true. But all you have to do is go: "Oh. Lee's about to gank me. I should stay out of his range", and then do so. The counter to his F+W+R combo is 4+rightclick, or "ward and move", as the pros call it. So it's not really unavoidable, it just takes prediction. It's just like predicting Riven flash-E-W ing you. Sure, once she does it, there's no escaping, but you can expect and predict it.

FirethornMay 13, 20171 votes

Good points

Better JunglerMay 12, 20173 votes

lol.. Take him into a game, and tell me how many times you fuck up the flash ult.. Then try ward hopping behind an enemy mid q then ulting.

Do it under tower, or when you're low health, and see how the pressure makes it difficult.

people are quick to complain when they get styled by Lee, but the amount of skill in comparison to every other champ is ridiculous.

Also, Gragas isn't "dumpstered" his bodyslam still activates by flashing at the end of the slam.

Better JunglerMay 12, 20173 votes

If you stream, I will donate 50$ if you can pull off a Q ward W R into your team without dying. (which is a basic lee sin combo)

Synnx7May 12, 20172 votes

#RiotFavoritism He brings LC$ Fla$hy PlaYS as they stated. kung-fu blind fucker, which chinese ppl love.

NiyumiMay 12, 20172 votes

Riot openly admits that Lee is broken, but they also openly admit they will never nerf him because he makes money.

... and yet, Riot is still a successful company, despite business practices like that being all throughout their game.

FirethornMay 13, 20171 votes

Where did they say this?

NiyumiMay 13, 20171 votes

Oh, it was a thread on the forums about Lee Sin being too strong, kinda like this one. I don't have the link for it, but I'm sure someone does. I could find it if you gave me a while. xD

subhuman team XDMay 12, 20172 votes

keep crying bud cause nothing is gonna happen to lee , "just nerf him into the ground like eve, urgot and olaf until you rework him." just goes to show that your pretty dumb , you dont even have a valid argument of why his combo should be removed or why he should be reworked , DOWNVOTED summoner 3 [zombie-brand-facepalm]

devdev463May 12, 20171 votes

Lee sin has more counterplay than most champions in this game, so all I have to say to this is git gud.

Who is TaliyahMay 12, 20171 votes

A high mobility champion will never have more counterplay than any champ with low mobility.

TheGoomyGamerMay 13, 20171 votes

Dodge his Q? His W isn't that long-ranged

Critmaster GarenMay 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Dodge his Q? His W isn't that long-ranged

his w + flash range IS long, and his ult applying a mini supress and shooting you in a straight line guarantees him hitting the q.

im not complaining about lees q being hard to dodge. im complaining his entire chain being IMPOSSIBLE to dodge, when he w + flashes on you into an ult and follows with a point blank q.

the mini supress attached to the ult animation makes it impossible to flash out of it yourself. on the other hand, he himself can even pull shit like flashing into a different position during the animation, should he get inrange with his w and just walking faster than you alone.

its just another cancerous flash interaction that removes counterplay from a champion.

devdev463May 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

A high mobility champion will never have more counterplay than any champ with low mobility.

That is simply not true at all. Can you really not think of any plausible scenarios where a champion with no mobility would have less counterplay than a champion with mobility? Would honestly be suprising to me.

xVoltzMay 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qE6B7TuB,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-05-12T12:08:58.554+0000)

just nerf him into the ground like eve, urgot and olaf until you rework him.

i want a rioter to come right here and explain to me how to counterplay his flash ult combo with the fucking mini stun attached and why this shit by all your design standarts is still in the game. any monkey can pull of reliable ganks with that champion after a couple of games with him. it has absolutely nothing to do with skill.

how are you supposed to deal with his ability to always get into range for a point blank q/ult if youre not hypermobile yourself?

either let us flash during his ult animation aswell, so we can counter this bullshit somehow, or remove the entire champion from the playing field.

the cooldown nerf on the ability wont add counterplay to his combos.

you absolutely dumpstered for their flash engages/interactions. i dont understand why lee gets special treatment.

Flash is a high cooldown. That's the counter. Make plays around it

Critmaster GarenMay 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Flash is a high cooldown. That's the counter. Make plays around it

no its not lmao. a longass cooldown is not counterplay or a replacement for counterplay.

by that logic it would be fine and good game design if you had a champion with a 5 minute cooldown who could chose to kill any single champion on the map without fail.

xVoltzMay 13, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=qE6B7TuB,comment-id=00190000,timestamp=2017-05-13T14:06:56.772+0000)

no its not lmao. a longass cooldown is not counterplay or a replacement for counterplay.

by that logic it would be fine and good game design if you had a champion with a 5 minute cooldown who could chose to kill any single champion on the map without fail.

I believe that's a horrible exaggeration.

It isn't without fail. If it keeps happening to you then you need to go back and rewatch your games and watch your positioning. I don't have this problem on my main at all.

Critmaster GarenMay 13, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I believe that's a horrible exaggeration.

It isn't without fail. If it keeps happening to you then you need to go back and rewatch your games and watch your positioning. I don't have this problem on my main at all.

its exaggeration, but it illustrates how an ability without counterplay isnt balanced by a long cooldown, and that its still shitty design.

and if youre talking about positioning, then i dont think you understand how flash allows for instant repositioning, or how lee can outposition you reliably with ward jumps unless youre playing a hypermobile champion with untargetability frames.

you have to realize how only a hand full of champions in this game are mobile enough to outposition lee sins ward hop + flash combo in the first place. even if youre playing one of them, it takes far more efford on your side to predict lees movement, than for him to pull off his combo. because if you flash too early, hes still going to get you aswell.