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how about doing the same thing for "immobile mages" that you are doing for "juggernauts"?

lolipopevelynn··10 votes·9,597 views

i would really like to see something done with immobile mages, specifically Syndra Velkoz and Zyra

all three of these champions are pretty damn helpless when jumped on. they do have some self peel in the form of CC or a slow, but for the most part if they get jumped on they WILL NOT be able to escape someone like MonkeyKing Yasuo Vi Ekko and any other mobility monster that wants them dead.

that being said, why do they offer no real power to a team when picked despite these very obvious weaknesses? Syndra/vel/zyra do not offer any more burst over a much safer pick like Ahri Ekko Fizz with the exception of Zyra , they dont even offer that much more CC either.

despite the negativity Veigar has received after his rework, i actually think both him and Annie are PERFECT examples of what a immobile burst mage should be like.for example, someone like Ekko or Fizz have to be very careful and think about when to go on these two champs because they can be bursted down VERY quickly. they do not have to worry about that when going on someone like syndra/velkoz tho.

So, to make a long story short, why are you guys keeping syndra/vel/zyra weak when everyone else with more cc and utility can do more than them??

60 Comments

RiotRiot Scruffy13 votes

Immobile mages definitely need the same treatment as what we're doing for the juggernauts. Not because "buffs" (those can happen at any time), but because they really need true uniqueness from champ to champ.

If you asked the question "I'm a champ that brings a bunch of aoe spell damage and some CC, who am I?" you could answer Velkoz, Zyra, Syndra, Brand, Cass, Malzahar, and ziggs. Ideally we could find what makes these champs unique and sharpen it enough so that the reason you would bring those champs to your team isn't just whoever has the highest numbers.

As for the buffs that you're asking for, I'll have to run it by the live balance team and they can better speak to if any of them are in an underpowered state.

ULTRAF0RCE4 votes

ziggs has mobility, also you forgot xerath and lux.

Archenz4 votes

Xerath is pretty unique. He's known as a long range caster nuker. Who can whittle a team down from afar. Although I liked old xerath more

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

yes, however so can lux and ziggs as well as vel koz, in theory at least, especially saying that a lot of Lux's power comes from her E which has a long ish range and her ult which has a distance comparable to xerath's on a much lower cooldown

Linna Excel2 votes

He also forgot anivia and mid Sejuani.

7ha7guy7771 votes

Sej has a dash...

Linna Excel1 votes

A fair point. My response is that the question was:

"I'm a champ that brings a bunch of aoe spell damage and some CC, who am I?"

Scruffy didn't specifically exclude having a dash from that list of prerequisites. That reminds me I forgot chogath mid, heimer, and karthus (punk always has to be the answer doesn't he).

DrCyanide1 votes

Mobility wasn't ruled out in the question.

LankPants4 votes

If you asked the question "I'm a champ that brings a bunch of aoe spell damage and some CC, who am I?" you could answer Velkoz, Zyra, Syndra, Brand, Cass, Malzahar, and ziggs.

I'm a champ who brings damage and durability with not much else, who am I? Garen , Shyvana , Darius , Olaf ?

If you look at the classes through a wide enough lens you can say that about any class.

I'm a champ with long ranged pick and a large amount of single target burst potential who has to suffer through an unfairly weak early game to reach my average mid to late game. Who am I?

I'm a poke mage who specialises in wave control with strong zone control and a small amount of disengage, ect.

If you're a bit more specific you can easily find a unique identity for all these champs at most shared with one other champ.

Gigahappytown2 votes

{quoted}

I'm a champ who brings damage and durability with not much else, who am I? Garen , Shyvana , Darius , Olaf ?

If you look at the classes through a wide enough lens you can say that about any class.

I'm a champ with long ranged pick and a large amount of single target burst potential who has to suffer through an unfairly weak early game to reach my average mid to late game. Who am I?

I'm a poke mage who specialises in wave control with strong zone control and a small amount of disengage, ect.

If you're a bit more specific you can easily find a unique identity for all these champs at most shared with one other champ.

Yeah difference between darius and garen is staggering they are quite literally pollar opposites

HumanPerfect2 votes

{quoted}

Immobile mages definitely need the same treatment as what we're doing for the juggernauts. Not because "buffs" (those can happen at any time), but because they really need true uniqueness from champ to champ.

If you asked the question "I'm a champ that brings a bunch of aoe spell damage and some CC, who am I?" you could answer Velkoz, Zyra, Syndra, Brand, Cass, Malzahar, and ziggs. Ideally we could find what makes these champs unique and sharpen it enough so that the reason you would bring those champs to your team isn't just whoever has the highest numbers.

As for the buffs that you're asking for, I'll have to run it by the live balance team and they can better speak to if any of them are in an underpowered state.

Swain The forgotten champion who looks completely out of place for a supposed ruler of Noxus .___.

RiotRiot Scruffy4 votes

He might need a bit more than some uniqueness sharpening.

darkdill2 votes

How about Lux ? Yes, she got some QoL buffs and her super cute Mahou Shoujo skin, but she keeps getting outpicked by Orianna, Morgana, Xerath and Ziggs, all because anything she can do, they can generally do better.

Maybe an upgrade to her passive that reveals affected enemy Champions (not including stealth)? Or is that too much vision?

EDIT: Downvoted for asking about Lux? Wow.

Crowe Stalker3 votes

Meanwhile Swain brings less pressure, less range, weaker poke (considering he needs to be in engage range to utilize nearly 3/4ths of his kit) and overall contributes far less at greater danger to himself.

Seriously, play Swain, and then play Lux, they fill two entirely different Niches, sure, but you'll notice for a 'Master Tactician' Swain plays a hell of a lot more dangerously for far less of a reward.

Also Swain's last skin was in May 2012. People need to stop bitching their Champions need skins because the only ones that need skins more than Swain are being given full reworks in the future (and also Sion has no special particle effect skins so...)

darkdill1 votes

I was not asking for a new Lux skin; I was simply asking whether or not Meddler had any thoughts on giving Lux more of a unique niche since she tends to be a "jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none" mage who gets outpicked by other mages/supports. (And yet I get downvoted to hell for asking...)

As for Swain, his kit already has some serious power to it, but he's just poor against tanks. It's not just that he has more trouble damaging them; its that his ultimate heals less off tanks with high MR.

If I were to give Swain any changes right now, I'd look at modifying the healing on his ultimate to be flat heals based off enemies hit rather than based off damage dealt (kinda like what happened to Renekton's Q several patches ago). This would normalize Swain's combat sustain against opponents with high MR, making his heal more reliable.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

NUUUUU pls don't nerf the freelo birdman :c

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Immobile mages definitely need the same treatment as what we're doing for the juggernauts. Not because "buffs" (those can happen at any time), but because they really need true uniqueness from champ to champ.

If you asked the question "I'm a champ that brings a bunch of aoe spell damage and some CC, who am I?" you could answer Velkoz, Zyra, Syndra, Brand, Cass, Malzahar, and ziggs. Ideally we could find what makes these champs unique and sharpen it enough so that the reason you would bring those champs to your team isn't just whoever has the highest numbers.

As for the buffs that you're asking for, I'll have to run it by the live balance team and they can better speak to if any of them are in an underpowered state.

You really think nothing differentiates those champions? As someone else said you have to go just below the surface to differentiate those champions. There are undoubtedly a lot of mages that are lacking in niches but "AOE spell damage and CC" is just... what a mage is. You may as well say "I'm a ranged character who autos lots and has a steroid - who am I?", then say that every single ADC is the exact same champ - while ADCs typically lack in differentation, Sivir is NOT identical to Jinx.

Vel'Koz is... honestly somewhat hard to give a niche to, I'll give you that. He's quite decent against tanks but occasional true damage doesn't make a tank buster, and otherwise he's just a standard poke mage. Zyra's a zone control mage thanks to her plants and Stranglethorns, she's a DPS mage thanks to her plants, she's a counter-engage mage because her kit is quite strong against divers (I can't think of many other mages who specialise in counter-engaging) and her synergy with Liandry's makes her one of the better anti-tank mages. Lots of things you'd want her for. Syndra's the premier single target burst mage in the game. If she was usable right now she'd be picked for the ability to snowball the laning phase and assassinate priority targets, in exchange for a poorer teamfight. Brand I'd consider lacking, though he works well enough with Liandry's to be anti-tank. Cass had a horrendous rework but has one of the most specific niches in the game as the mage ADC. If you think she's generic then... is there any mage that you think stands out from the pack? She seems anything but generic to me. Malz = single target mage assassin, pool makes him exceptional against tanks and his suppression makes him really good at making diving the backline as a single threat undesirable. Anti-assassin tank shredding mage. Ziggs = sieging mage. He is impossible to push against and difficult to defend against.

I absolutely agree that some mages need to be changed so that they stand out from the crowd. "Why pick Vel'Koz when you can pick Xerath or Lux?" is the type of question in the mage class that needs to be answered. But to say that every mage with AOE damage and CC is impossible to distinguish from every other character with that is ridiculous. Would you rework every assassin if I said they all brought high damage and mobility? Probably not.

Don't give every mage in the game a stupid gimmick just because if you describe them in the absolute vaguest of terms, they sound similar. Many mages have a niche - even most of the mages you listed do. You don't need to give Syndra some stupid "does more damage against the enemy's hero" mechanic for her to have a unique reason to be picked.

PapaGreg211 votes

{quoted}

Immobile mages definitely need the same treatment as what we're doing for the juggernauts. Not because "buffs" (those can happen at any time), but because they really need true uniqueness from champ to champ.

If you asked the question "I'm a champ that brings a bunch of aoe spell damage and some CC, who am I?" you could answer Velkoz, Zyra, Syndra, Brand, Cass, Malzahar, and ziggs. Ideally we could find what makes these champs unique and sharpen it enough so that the reason you would bring those champs to your team isn't just whoever has the highest numbers.

As for the buffs that you're asking for, I'll have to run it by the live balance team and they can better speak to if any of them are in an underpowered state.

I haven't seen Syndra bring a bunch of damage to a game in over 6 months

Archenz1 votes

Hey scruffy. I would just like to say. That the juggernaut reworks gimmicks were great and I hope you add more gimmicks to the game, things like Skarner spires, garens villany and Mords drsgon add lots of depth to the game when they are in the game.I hope you continue to do this with mages and all champs :D

sp4411 votes

I'd say that most ADCs have similar issues, in that most of them boil down to "I'm the guy that right-clicks people to death and have some mobility/utility to save myself because I am a priority target"

I could be talking about Graves, Lucian, Vayne, Tristana, Kalista...

Off the top of my head, I think the only ones who escape that pattern are Ezreal (more spellslinging than usual), Twitch (Expunge and Stealth add some intricacies to his gameplay), and Quinn (Valor kinda makes her a Marksman/Assassin hybrid).

Well, and Urgot, but I don't count Urgot as an ADC, he's more of a ranged Bruiser.

Hyrum Graff1 votes

{quoted}

Malzahar

IMO Malz already has a pretty unique identity as the champ who gets to force one of his enemies to cosplay Dyrus at MSI (ie, tell them that for 2.5 seconds they're not allowed to play league of legends).

The essence is that because of the % hp on Malz's W, he can afford to drop his combo on an offtank/juggernaut or other bruiser. If syndra ulted the tank, her team would probably be pretty sad.

Jaghatai2 votes

This just in - All Immobile casters to follow Mord Paradigm. Henceforth 25%-33% of their kit will only be accessible when in the presence of an ally and be forced to go bot lane.

Ludovico1 votes

I already have a brilliant idea for XerathXerath ! Here´s how it works:

The skills:

  1. W: Makes him immobile, in exchange for unrivaled lenght of his skills! _Isn´t it strange, that THE artillery mage in the game, can get outranged? And his max range is like that of many other skills? F.e. Varus, Jayce, Rek´Sai etc. With him CC´ing we could introduce something to the game, that no other champ has in its form. _

  2. Q: No more Varus clone charge-up, but a single skillshot that gets extra lenght when W is activated.

  3. E: As the E would be pretty oppresive at massive range, lets make it point´n´click dmg, with a much smaller range. Upon reaching the enemy it markes him. If Xerath manages to hit the marked enemy with his Q/Ult, the enemy gets stunned.

  4. R: Can be the same as now. Or we use what he currently has on his W x3 (exactly with the inner circle that deals more dmg, and the outer which deals less)

  5. Passive: The same as now. Or we could make it, so he additionally gains armor for building AP! It would also thematically fit him perfectly. A magic gets stronger the more magic it accumulates. And his quote "Flesh and Blood... sooo fragile~". Can´t think of anything better than that.

What do you think? In all seriousness. Please, what do you think about the idea? I know it´s mainly pre-rework Xerath, but LoL has greatly improved scince a kit like that was oppresive. With dashes on every champ thats being played, the tanks that wouldn´t go down, thanks to the removal of the MP... wouldn´t it all fit perfectly?

Oerba No Naja1 votes

Can we bring back Zyra mid ?

Oerba No Naja4 votes

do not touch zyra , she just needs small buff . pls no more shitty rework on my mains .

Moulin Rouge2 votes

I would love for something like a focusing iris that increaases your damage the longer you stand in one place. Kind of the immobile counter-part to ludens echo which encourages constant movement.

It'd kind of go like this:

Eye of focus:

100 AP 400 HP

Increases damage of your next move by X % for every 1 second you stand still. This active has a 5 second cool down.

Maybe it would encourage a, dare I say it, immobile mage meta. :OOOO

Mages like Ahri and Assassins wouldn't be able to use it without neutering themselves. Long range immobile mages would reign supreme, for once.

My Desired Name1 votes

{quoted}

I would love for something like a focusing iris that increaases your damage the longer you stand in one place. Kind of the immobile counter-part to ludens echo which encourages constant movement.

It'd kind of go like this:

Eye of focus:

100 AP 400 HP

Increases damage of your next move by X % for every 1 second you stand still. This active has a 5 second cool down.

Maybe it would encourage a, dare I say it, immobile mage meta. :OOOO

Rengar Mwahahaha

Moulin Rouge1 votes

[{quoted}](name=My Desired Name,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q7loFMA6,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-08-15T03:55:12.380+0000)

Rengar Mwahahaha

Well, there's a tradeoff to everything. Though tbh, a rengar that jumps on any immobile mage will kill them with or without the foci. Probably the only immobile mage capable of fighting back is Swain.

lolipopevelynn4 votes

{quoted}

I would love for something like a focusing iris that increaases your damage the longer you stand in one place. Kind of the immobile counter-part to ludens echo which encourages constant movement.

It'd kind of go like this:

Eye of focus:

100 AP 400 HP

Increases damage of your next move by X % for every 1 second you stand still. This active has a 5 second cool down.

Maybe it would encourage a, dare I say it, immobile mage meta. :OOOO

Mages like Ahri and Assassins wouldn't be able to use it without neutering themselves. Long range immobile mages would reign supreme, for once.

that type of item would NEVER work in leage. this game requires you to constantly move around or "dance" even while farming.

Moulin Rouge1 votes

{quoted}

that type of item would NEVER work in leage. this game requires you to constantly move around or "dance" even while farming.

There's so many items Riot has said in the years, they'd NEVER implement. And yet implemented a year or two later. So many champions that went against their previous design philosophy and are existing today, as we speak.

Never say never dearie.

lolipopevelynn1 votes

{quoted}

There's so many items Riot has said in the years, they'd NEVER implement. And yet implemented a year or two later. So many champions that went against their previous design philosophy and are existing today, as we speak.

Never say never dearie.

the only champion type that would benefit from standing complete still is a tank. there is too much mobility in the game for anyone to stand still. even velkoz ult barely works.

aaronautumn1 votes

no to mention syndra, who is always moving (even when casting spells) would not benefit from it. kiting is one of her strongest traits.

Myrddin2 votes

Velkoz should be helpless

dear lord his damage

KONO RUBICK DA2 votes

Velkoz LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL???????????? he is the closed champion to the balance state if not the most balanced champion in the game.

also, you forgot Brand Malzahar Anivia

Reaper Soraka1 votes

Whew. I didn't see Brand's portrait in those paragraphs. I'm safe for another day.

My Desired Name4 votes

{quoted}

Whew. I didn't see Brand's portrait in those paragraphs. I'm safe for another day.

Brand Brand Brand Brand Brand Brand Brand Brand Brand Brand Brand Brand

kneel on Ice1 votes

Zyra Zyra needs more mobility speed Syndra less CD on her E and i dont lnow what Velkoz needs cause i dont play him :c

Boomerangbro5 votes

You want to nerf Syndra! Hahahahaha. seriously, she's in the worst 5 champions in the game right now.

kneel on Ice2 votes

Sorry my bad , meant less "CD" not cc , i know she needs buff :c

Boomerangbro2 votes

My bad. sorry.

LankPants1 votes

I'm not so convinced that would help Syndra in any meaningful way. Her main problem right now is how ludicrously weak her early game is.

I'd say +10 damage on Q at all ranks would go a long way towards helping her out without just putting her in the exact same 'lane bully' situation she was in before.

kneel on Ice1 votes

Less Cd on her W means more chances to stunt , more chances to escape , more chances to get kills , and all that leads to a good early stuff , means op early game ^^ i dont think she sucks that much on early laning , she can poke and farm with Q until Ulti wich alows her to get an easy kill with gank/ignite/skill . All she needs is a better E !

Poske2 votes

She is actually one of the strongest midlaners and completly outclasses a handfull of mages but whatever stay delusional boys and buff my main I certainly wont mind it

lolipopevelynn2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q7loFMA6,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2015-08-16T07:30:31.923+0000)

She is actually one of the strongest midlaners and completly outclasses a handfull of mages but whatever stay delusional boys and buff my main I certainly wont mind it

what mage does she out class?

Poske1 votes

all generic mages

Veigar brand etc

Crossette1 votes

I'm totally fine with Vel'Koz. Unless they flash my E I'm fine, and even then I run barrier/heal over anything else.

Linna Excel1 votes

Zyra is a pretty good teamfighter with control ability. Her E and ult are great.

Budupops1 votes

no

Malcha1 votes

You mean send them bot lane?

Edited for salty content.

Earl Eulrich1 votes

making them a)binary by default (oppressing vs melees, as they can´t kite them, useless vs anything else) b)destroy the itemization they´d need to suceed

...i´d rather keep them as they are

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