cleaver revert is going to feel nice for bruisers

Tychusfindlay918·Dec 6, 2017·61 votes·2,723 views

But even better for (i dont consider this rat fuck a bruiser, he's an abomination)

Why even bother throwing us a bone when you don't care enough to make cleaver less effective on ranged?

51 Comments

Death by GlamourDec 6, 201722 votes

bruisers are going to be the hardest hit by the cleaver change

tanks can atleast endure the damage for a while bryusers cannot

ok to the down voters, how will melee toplaners deal with buffs to graves jayce and lucian?

ThefrostyvikingDec 6, 20172 votes

Whose damage though?

Most cleaver users have been nerfed enough that a 6% difference in armor reduction won't do too much, i think this is more aimed at toplane for champs like Darius, wukong.....maybe Riven? Who can rush it against tanks for extended fights.

Among the ranged only MF might notice a difference, but it´ll be pretty marginal since she´ll never grab the item before Duskblade and ghostblade if she can help it.

Death by GlamourDec 6, 201710 votes

the adcs dont need to buy BC to reap the benefits, the shred helps them regardless if they/top/jungle has the item.

combine this with the changes to lord dominics this is a MASSIVE nerf to melee bruisers

i keep saying directly buff darius renekton and riven

ThefrostyvikingDec 6, 20172 votes

LDR buffs aren't actually that big, and they are actually a nerf to midgame users as the health difference requirement is higher.

And i really don't think a 6% difference in armor will do much one teamfights start, those who will use cleaver already do for the most part.

Biggest difference's will be early game in lane.

And Darius is getting buffed this patch, something about his passive bleed damage and something about AD.

Renekton doesn't seem to be needing anything according to his statistics aside from better armor shred to help deal with tanks.

Death by GlamourDec 7, 20171 votes

You are correct that 6% wont do much itself but it is when it is stacked with the likes of lord dominics/mortal/last whisper and lethality items which end up completely negating the gold you spent on defensive items.

These kind of buffs or nerfs to tanks because 3 of them are strong is just ridiculous

PG PoroPirateDec 7, 20171 votes

It would be nice if Black Cleaver's Armor Shred passive would be disabled when you got any kind of lethality. I saw a lot of posts with make BC melee only but that would screw up Urgot and Gnar (maybe even more). I don't really like what's happening on the PBE right now. First Riot says, they will decide if they buff all Bruisers individually or if they give the Bruisers new runes. Right now they giving Bruiser(Juggernauts) a new rune, they buff all related Bruiser Items (mostly BC and Titanic) and they buff the champions. Seems like clusterfuck all over the place ...

I know it's PBE so everything could be reverted and we should just chill, bla bla bla summoner 21

Death by GlamourDec 7, 20171 votes

do darius ect even use thydra? i thought black cleaver and maybe a steraks was the way to go?

i dont know anyone that uses thydra outside of tank riven fiora and maybe olaf

PG PoroPirateDec 7, 20171 votes

Kled is one person i know who profits from Titanic Hydra and some darius player go for titanic

ThefrostyvikingDec 7, 20171 votes

In my experience stacking all those together on say Miss fortune just makes tanks like cho,lategame seju, maokai and rammus manageable, that´s probably how Riot view it as justified as well.

But i do pity everyone else caught in between who dont get compensation buffs :(

Death by GlamourDec 7, 20171 votes

If they do view it that way it explains why they are terrible at balancing the game.

Why should all adcs be able to shred tanks, 2 seasons ago only kog and vayne were capable of it

ThefrostyvikingDec 7, 20171 votes

It's not quite on the level of shredding them, they die if you have time to to shoot at them but it does take a while, but the weaker marksmen struggled like hell to make it work whenever dealing with anything more than a single beefy tank, they simple didn't output enough damage to match the tank.

At the worst point a Caitlyn could shoot at a galio for 12 seconds and still only get about 50% of his health despite a full build and several traps.

Granted, he was a lot stronger back then too.

But i guess Riot realized this during the LCS where every marksman aside from the hypercarries and Xayah were basically nonviable because they couldn't do enough damage to be relevant.

So they chose to buff the bottom line to prevent such a thing, for diversity.

And didn't the first tank meta happen under season 5 or am i mistaken? I much more prefer the current situation over that.......although i do believe non tank melee could use a bit of beefing up.

This because tanks were given powerful defensive tools in which marksmen were given cheaper items in response, but this move left the rest of the melee's behind in the so called arms race.

Although i´ll admit that it's probably difficult to balance a damage melee to not have too much damage but also not be too tanky to the point where they become impossible to stop.

Especially given how different the amount of damage the marksmen deal, a Twitch will on average deal 21-22 k damage over a game while an Ashe will deal 17-18 k, how does one balance all the melees and the marksmen so that no one feels useless?

Meanwhile MF usually deals 23 k damage and Ezreal 24 k on average.

I do not know any good answer x)

HibekiDec 7, 20171 votes

Riven does not need buffs lol

HungryAngry2SPPDec 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q7adTlbA,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-06T20:11:55.083+0000)

the adcs dont need to buy BC to reap the benefits, the shred helps them regardless if they/top/jungle has the item.

combine this with the changes to lord dominics this is a MASSIVE nerf to melee bruisers

i keep saying directly buff darius renekton and riven

Again, no one cares about Garen :'(

Death by GlamourDec 7, 20171 votes

Because he is nit currently in a bad spot

HungryAngry2SPPDec 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Pink Leg Warmers,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q7adTlbA,comment-id=00000000000000020000,timestamp=2017-12-07T17:39:11.080+0000)

Because he is nit currently in a bad spot

But it feels bad anyway :(

Charlie Loves UDec 8, 20171 votes

you always go cleaver on mf second if they have a tank. if you go double lethality you will never be able to do anything to a tank even with your ult in the mid game.

ThefrostyvikingDec 8, 20171 votes

Not really, usually MF get's ahead and is thus strong enough to circumvent that, by virtue being really strong at this time.

Cleaver isn't even mandatory as her third item anymore, at least not in Korea.

But if going even and enemy has a strong tank that didnt get shutdown early? Then yea, i myself would probably think about going cleaver second unless i was very confident in getting kills.

That or if my AP laner got very strong.

But then again, Korea is always in a early game meta whenever tanks aren't OP.

MizayaDec 6, 201711 votes

what kind of mentality is that?

when my main gets buffed directly or indirectly i dont give a fuck about how it affects other champs, im happy. seriously ive been playing less adc recently more jungle and i still dont get the ranged hate.

Serika ZeroDec 6, 20172 votes

because the item will get nerfed down soon after

as riot uses their baby gloves when it comes to adc nerfs, so, if its abused by an adc, chances are. The item will get gutted instead of the adc nerfed

MizayaDec 7, 20175 votes

Lucian? Hasn't he been nerfed like 11 times in total? I remember when he used to have 550 range and an AD ratio on W lol

Serika ZeroDec 7, 20172 votes

after he dominated the entire game for about 5 months, sure

RebonackDec 6, 20178 votes

This is what the upcoming LDR nerfs are for.

The HP threshold is increase from 1000HP to 2000HP, making the Cleaver+LDR combo really inefficient.

BoulderoxDec 6, 20177 votes

are you ready for this idea.... item 3071 MELEE ONLY [sg-zephyr]

Entheos GeonDec 7, 20177 votes

Or just make it so ranged auto attacks stack it slower, like Fervor of Battle did.

4th3t0sDec 7, 20172 votes

It's not just the armorshred, ADC's as a class have ZERO reason to be stacking health

SithesisLordDec 7, 20171 votes

Stacking would imply they build a lot of health items. BC only gives 400 HP.

It´s hardly stacking health.

BeatzBoyFTWDec 7, 20177 votes

{quoted}

are you ready for this idea.... MELEE ONLY [sg-zephyr]

Urgot ....

PopcornBunniDec 6, 20176 votes

Gnar item 3022 item 3071

Seems like a healthy change for top lane.

...

Modl Ryden lDec 6, 20175 votes

Items don't belong to a certain subclass. They're just items.

They've already prevented marksmen from using the item 3044 component to its fullest.

LordGeovanniDec 6, 20175 votes

okay just items Rito i cant just build item 3065 item 3056 and item 3047 and dive Adcs with my item 3031 item 3046 item 3153 build on a fighter. Buffs please since items dont belong to subclasses these items are weak.

General TherittDec 7, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Items don't belong to a certain subclass. They're just items.

They've already prevented marksmen from using the component to its fullest.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA LETHALITY META HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA BLACK CLEAVER ADC META HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA ADC TRINITY FORCE METAS HAHAHAHAHAHAHA ON-HIT ADC META HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA There hasnt been a time where ADC can't abuse items not meant for them. item 3124 item 3053 item 3812 item 3302 item 3147 are blatant examples of past interactions that were eventually just accepted. Not every single item should be for everyone, Titanic Hydra and Ravenous Hydra, along with Rapidfire are perfect examples of well balanced items that can be divided by ranges. We shouldn't give access to items ranged carries can abuse to give them massive gold leads thanks to the overall cheap cost of a majority of their items, and given their own private escort in the form of a support

DuskDaUmbreonDec 6, 20175 votes

I mean, Phage is already less effective on range.

And Black Cleaver (or any item, for that matter) hardly belongs to a single subclass (or even two of them). item 3153 is just as much a marksman item as it is a diver item. item 3156 is just as much for assassins as it is for divers.

BlåbæretDec 7, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I mean, Phage is already less effective on range.

And Black Cleaver (or any item, for that matter) hardly belongs to a single subclass (or even two of them). is just as much a marksman item as it is a diver item. is just as much for assassins as it is for divers.

Lol, adc main.

DuskDaUmbreonDec 7, 20172 votes

So...I make a valid argument, and suddenly I'm an ADC main?

ModKnightsKemplarDec 8, 20172 votes

Hey LesVitness,

Try to remain constructive when you're replying to people about gameplay topics! It's not helpful to anyone to name-call or insult someone because they have a different opinion than you.

--KempyreanPirate Advisor

ThefrostyvikingDec 6, 20173 votes

Lucian won't make a comeback with such a small buff, and MF is strong for different reasons to the point i doubt it will really affect her much.

It's more aimed towards those like Darius, kled, wukong, riven, olaf, pantheon, rengar and jarvan who can rush the item in tank matchup and go for extended trades at that early point.

I think it will be particularly noticeable for Darius along with his passive buff.

AimléssDec 7, 20173 votes

Wow, they buff a core item on bruisers, and since TWO, literally TWO ADC's build it, not ALL the time, but SOMETIMES, it's a problem? These boards are something else man... How do you do it Riot?

HåppyDec 7, 20171 votes

but those two adcs are the reason it got nerfed in the first place

HammermancerDec 7, 20173 votes

Jayce Gnar Urgot all fucking need cleaver

not abuse it

Need it

require

Mokuto BunshiDec 7, 20172 votes

<v<

Kled + item 3071 + item 3748

I'm excited for my boy to be great once more.

Blue Moon WolfDec 7, 20172 votes

"Helping bruisers"

Buffs
5 damage to / with nothing done to
Buffs some of the most frustrating top lane melee champs
Minor buffs to a few bruisers, one of which HAS A REWORK COMING IN JANUARY, making the buff a moot point
Nerfs two ranged top laners that are hardly seen anymore
changing ONE marksman item to make more anti-tank focused (as it was made for) so long as your bruiser doesn't accidentally build too much health.

I've been liking what they have been doing with Divers of late and I know they are planning a more extensive update for the long term later, but I don't see how this is going to help like they said it would. A lot of the champs getting buffed are some of the most frustrating to play against top lane and will just make it all the more frustrating. I'm hoping its just still early and we will see more stuff in between now and the next update a week from now, cause I hate to say it, but this isn't going to cut it as is.

Critmaster GarenDec 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Moon Wolf,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q7adTlbA,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-12-07T06:43:10.932+0000)

Nerfs two ranged top laners that are hardly seen anymore

i dont know what youre talking about, but if its teemo and jayce, their pickrate and winrate has skyrocketed since the season update.

theyre unbelievably oppressive right now. especially to melee top laners.

HammermancerDec 7, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=q7adTlbA,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2017-12-07T06:48:45.538+0000)

i dont know what youre talking about, but if its teemo and jayce, their pickrate and winrate has skyrocketed since the season update.

theyre unbelievably oppressive right now. especially to melee top laners.

Jayce specifically is played because of all the other melee squishy fighters being useless

once all the rivens and irelias can go back home he'll be fine

Statikk Succ Dec 7, 20172 votes

I mean Lucian is pretty trash rn and this definitely won’t bring him back

notice me Sin piDec 6, 20171 votes

im not even sure who i should permaban next patch. I thought darius might become S-tier next patch due to changes in keystones and black cleaver. I change my mind.

JackMcSnipeyzDec 6, 20171 votes

K, let's scrap the buffs then, will you be happy then?

sddghyufjasdklhuDec 7, 20171 votes

The cleaver wont do that much. 6% isnt that much more. The real issue is tank items are too cheap, tanks have too much base damage and high armor/mr since its so cheap to get. You often lose extended trades against a tank with riven even with this item. (maybe ive played against too many maokai who always wins trades in the end).

KuroCaliberDec 7, 20171 votes

I mean tanks aren't late game, their items should be cheap.

Critmaster GarenDec 7, 20171 votes

at least it still has the health recipe. this should make it anoying to build on adc while bruisers either dont care or prefer the extra health over extra ad.

especially with the upcoming grasp changes.

Sexy Jack RabbitDec 7, 20171 votes

Isn't this like the 2nd time this item has been reverted in some way? First it was the build path reverted, now it's the stats. Don't get me wrong, I love it on champs as much as the next. (Gonna be great on Illaoi ) But maybe the constant back and forth with the item indicates there's something wrong with it.